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I wish to clear up a misconception spread.... Locked

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  • Member since
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  • From: 41 Degrees 52.4 minutes North; 72 Degrees 7.3 minutes West
Posted by bbrowniii on Wednesday, June 1, 2011 11:33 PM

Manstein's revenge

Nope, this is how it started in the SHIPS Forum under the Independence thread:

"warshipbuilder:

Oh boy!

I hope you are really ready for some serious head-scratching!

As usual with Dragon kits,  the instructions are a little ambiguous - You're gonna need this real bad -

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.212602668757747.58662.133782763306405"

As usual, Tracy popped in on cue to defend Dragon as he always does when someone is critical of their kits, as he recently did concerning the Scharnhorst (if I recall correctly you agreed that the bow looked "off" as well)...I have nothing against a guy defending a company they have a vested interest in---I'd do it myself.  But I stil gotta keep it real so it has devolved into Manny vs Tracy...

Hey Manny

Did you ever see the movie A Few Good Men? At the start of the trial, Kevin Bacon's character opens the prosecution with a few lines about 'The fact of the case...'

The facts of this case are that, in response to the post you cite above, Tracy's initial response did not defend, or even mention, either the instructions or Dragon. He simply said he didn't think the particular work around was necessary, and he offered any assistance he could provide:

Eh, I didn't think Pete's procedure was really necessary on mine. What I did was hold all three pieces (main deck, left hangar bulkhead piece, right hangar bulkhead piece) loosely together and then put them in place, and THEN start gluing. You didn't have to fit them exactly until you started gluing, and I just started with gluing the main deck as it holds the other pieces more or less in place.

Let me know if you have any questions; I helped develop the kit.

He also has not 'inserted himself on Dragon's behalf in this debate'. If you recall, I ASKED him a questinon about Dragon's instructions. So if anyone is guilty of inserting Tracy into the debate, it is I. You might recall that exchange. You posted that it was a
Great question---let's move that discussion over to my dedicated thread on the subject...I'm gonna continue a virtual picket of them until they do something about it...
As Kevin Bacon's character said, 'These are the facts of the case, and the facts are not in dispute...' (or something like that... Stick out tongue

'All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing' - Edmund Burke (1770 ??)

 

  • Member since
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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, June 2, 2011 6:45 AM

bbrowniii

 Manstein's revenge:

Nope, this is how it started in the SHIPS Forum under the Independence thread:

"warshipbuilder:

Oh boy!

I hope you are really ready for some serious head-scratching!

As usual with Dragon kits,  the instructions are a little ambiguous - You're gonna need this real bad -

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.212602668757747.58662.133782763306405"

As usual, Tracy popped in on cue to defend Dragon as he always does when someone is critical of their kits, as he recently did concerning the Scharnhorst (if I recall correctly you agreed that the bow looked "off" as well)...I have nothing against a guy defending a company they have a vested interest in---I'd do it myself.  But I stil gotta keep it real so it has devolved into Manny vs Tracy...

 

Hey Manny

Did you ever see the movie A Few Good Men? At the start of the trial, Kevin Bacon's character opens the prosecution with a few lines about 'The fact of the case...'

The facts of this case are that, in response to the post you cite above, Tracy's initial response did not defend, or even mention, either the instructions or Dragon. He simply said he didn't think the particular work around was necessary, and he offered any assistance he could provide:

Eh, I didn't think Pete's procedure was really necessary on mine. What I did was hold all three pieces (main deck, left hangar bulkhead piece, right hangar bulkhead piece) loosely together and then put them in place, and THEN start gluing. You didn't have to fit them exactly until you started gluing, and I just started with gluing the main deck as it holds the other pieces more or less in place.

Let me know if you have any questions; I helped develop the kit.

He also has not 'inserted himself on Dragon's behalf in this debate'. If you recall, I ASKED him a questinon about Dragon's instructions. So if anyone is guilty of inserting Tracy into the debate, it is I. You might recall that exchange. You posted that it was a
Great question---let's move that discussion over to my dedicated thread on the subject...I'm gonna continue a virtual picket of them until they do something about it...
As Kevin Bacon's character said, 'These are the facts of the case, and the facts are not in dispute...' (or something like that... Stick out tongue

...interesting that you say that YOU inserted him in the middle of this.  I don't think you have that kinda control over him.  Anyone that hangs out in SHIPS are familair with his "defend Dragon to the last breath" stand on any critique that comes Dragon's way.  eg: when he defended the high cost of Dragon's German destroyer vs the Trumpeter one, and in the Scharnhorst thread where the shape of the bow came into question...etc...

Ah, I see you fancy yourself a trial lawyer now.  I'll just quote Tracy as a response to your response and let his words tell the facts: "They (Dragon) just don't care enough [about their instructions]."

Oh, and wasn't it you that "gave pause" about buying the new Dragon carrier reviewed in the latest issue of FSM because of the reviewer's remarks about the instructions?

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Posted by Aaron Skinner on Thursday, June 2, 2011 9:21 AM

As far as I can tell this thread has become a public spat between two Forum members. I think it's time to move on and stop belaboring the same points over and over and stop making it personal. This is the only warning you will receive.

You now have 15 minutes to reach minimum safe distance.

Aaron

Aaron Skinner

Editor

FineScale Modeler

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  • From: EG48
Posted by Tracy White on Thursday, June 2, 2011 9:38 AM

Aaron; others have refuted Manstein's points enough for me for now, but I would like to respond to a couple of other posts:

carsanab replied on  06-01-2011 2:03 PM
I agree with Manny....one of the purposes or reasons we post on these forums IS to let everyone including the kit manufacturers what the pros and cons of their products are regardless of whether we are fans of the makers or not. They all have good and bad issues and every kit is different.

-- Snip --

Im sorry but I have to REALLY disagree with this statement. ..in fact I am upset that someone who seems to be as connected as he says with the manufacture or release of its thinks this way. The whole idea of the hobby is for everyone of ANY skill to enjoy the kits available or coming out. to say if you cant handle it there are these other options is really looking down on the newcomers/beginners to the hobby.


That's not the point I was making. The builder has to presume a certain amount of WORK on their part needs to be done. It is a model kit requiring assembly. Now, the question for the manufacturer is one of target. Beginners need or want different features than builders who have progressed a bit. You can't please all groups with the same kit.

I wasn't trying to imply "if you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen," just that there are options. If you don't like it, don't buy it. If it's too complex, do something simpler. Hey, guess what, I find complex math more complex than I want to do, so I stick to research, web page coding, and plastic model building, which are simpler. Does that mean I'm insulting my abilities to do math?

With regards to my connections; I want to state again just so it is clear, that I work WITH Dragon, not FOR them. I am not a representative and these are not their views; these are my opinions after having worked with them for a couple of years.

Finally, (in inverse order to your posts) I agree that the pros and cons should be discussed. I've listed off things on the CVL kit we got wrong for one reason or another for builders that do care and who want to go all out. I don't think it's slamming a manufacturer to list problems with a kit unless you use phrases like "garbage," etc. One thing to keep in mind though, is that manufacturers do not spend a lot of time watching forums; they're focusing on the next kit to get it out the door. You may think this is a big, powerful group, but it's really a small pond when it comes down to how much time any manufacturer gives it.

iraqiwildman replied on  06-01-2011 2:20 PM
Also, how do I become one of these "insiders" who get to test these new releases?

I can only tell you how I got to where I am... this isn't the only road. I'm 39, married, no kids. About ten years ago I found out that the National Archives has regional branches, and not only was there one near me (Seattle), but they had the records for Puget Sound Naval Shipyard, where most of the Pacific fleet battleships and fleet carriers were worked on. I start hanging out there on weekends and just sit and read the records and scan things I find interesting or potentially helpful.

I start answering questions on websites such as this, SteelNavy, and Modelwarships. I become known as a guru on the Essex class carriers because people have a steady amount of questions and it turns out that I've found a lot of information no one had before. That leads to another person who is helping Dragon contacting me and feeling me out about if I'd be willing to help an unnamed manufacturer (at that time) with a potential Essex class project and can I keep a secret.

Boy, can I! I jump at the opportunity; by this time I'm getting a little tired of answering what feels like the same question over and over, and I figure it will be easier in the long run if I can just steer them to the right kit. This leads to a collaboration with Dragon on their 1/700th CV-16 Lexington and CV-12 Hornet "1945" kits. They work with me a bit, and when they decide to try a 350th CVL, the knowledge of cariers I have puts me in a good position to help out more. I jump at that opportunity as well, but keep in mind that I never received anything more than a thanks for the Essex class work, and I never talked to Dragon about compensation for my time on the CVL project until after the kit was out and I wanted to send some as thanks to some other researchers who had sent me files and information.

The reason I got test shot pieces was that I was the most familiar with the ships and the pieces out of the people who were helping on the project due to the 10-20 hours a month I was spending looking over their CAD and photos and plans. Testing is not as cool as you might think. You have to build the kit and look for problems within a day or two. No putty, no paint, just blaze on through. Then, if you find problems, they might not be fixed based on cost to re-work the molds.

So a lot of it was circumstances and luck. My best advice is to have something to offer that no one else does. In my case it was information and a willingnes to help.

Tracy White Researcher@Large

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Posted by oddmanrush on Thursday, June 2, 2011 9:41 AM

Aaron Skinner

You now have 15 minutes to reach minimum safe distance.

Aaron





MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

GET TO DA CHOPPAH!!!!
.
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.
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Jon

My Blog: The Combat Workshop 

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  • From: Illinois: Hive of Scum and Villany
Posted by Sprue-ce Goose on Thursday, June 2, 2011 9:52 AM

Nice to see Mr. White has answered some questions regarding Dragon operations.

Unfortunately, my question about Dragon ownership remains unanswered.

Also, I have tried to obtain PDF copies of kit instructions from the Dragon website but can not locate copies and must conclude that Dragon, unlike Revell, does not offer downloadable PFD copies of kit instructions.

Who can I contact at Dragon regarding this?

  • Member since
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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, June 2, 2011 9:55 AM

 I'll just quote Tracy as a response to your response and let his words tell the facts: "They (Dragon) just don't care enough [about their instructions]."

That about sums it up...I'm done.

  • Member since
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Posted by Sprue-ce Goose on Thursday, June 2, 2011 9:57 AM

Perhaps,

I would still like to hear Mr. White's answer to my two questions.

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Posted by Aaron Skinner on Thursday, June 2, 2011 10:00 AM

Seriously? I'm trying really hard not to lose my sense of humor here guys.

You now have 13 minutes to reach minimum safe distance.

 

Aaron Skinner

Editor

FineScale Modeler

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  • From: EG48
Posted by Tracy White on Thursday, June 2, 2011 10:07 AM

Aaron Skinner
I'm trying really hard not to lose my sense of humor here guys.

Respectfully, I dropped it when you requested it.

I wish more companies (Dragon, Trumpeter, Tamiya) posted their instructions. ModelWarships posts them in their reviews; probably the "worst" one if you want to see what people are complaining about is their Scharnhorst kit, which is reviewed here (Instructions on the bottom).

CVL review and instructions here.

Tracy White Researcher@Large

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Posted by The Navigator on Thursday, June 2, 2011 10:17 AM

Aaron Skinner

Seriously? I'm trying really hard not to lose my sense of humor here guys.

You now have 13 minutes to reach minimum safe distance.

 

I have many books and my Lair smells of rich mahogany!!! Stay thirsty my fellow MOJOs!




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Posted by The Navigator on Thursday, June 2, 2011 10:18 AM

I have many books and my Lair smells of rich mahogany!!! Stay thirsty my fellow MOJOs!




  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, June 2, 2011 10:18 AM

Tracy White

 Aaron Skinner:
I'm trying really hard not to lose my sense of humor here guys.

Respectfully, I dropped it when you requested it.

I wish more companies (Dragon, Trumpeter, Tamiya) posted their instructions. ModelWarships posts them in their reviews; probably the "worst" one if you want to see what people are complaining about is their Scharnhorst kit, which is reviewed here (Instructions on the bottom).

CVL review and instructions here.

Ditto

  • Member since
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Posted by The Navigator on Thursday, June 2, 2011 10:18 AM

I have many books and my Lair smells of rich mahogany!!! Stay thirsty my fellow MOJOs!




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Posted by Sprue-ce Goose on Thursday, June 2, 2011 10:45 AM

?

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Posted by The Navigator on Thursday, June 2, 2011 10:54 AM

Confused

I have many books and my Lair smells of rich mahogany!!! Stay thirsty my fellow MOJOs!




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Posted by MAJ Mike on Thursday, June 2, 2011 10:58 AM

The Navigator

Confused

Bow Down Well said, sir.

 

 

 "I'd "I'd rather be historically accurate than politically correct."

"Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc!"

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Posted by The Navigator on Thursday, June 2, 2011 11:20 AM

This about sums it up!-

I have many books and my Lair smells of rich mahogany!!! Stay thirsty my fellow MOJOs!




  • Member since
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  • From: 41 Degrees 52.4 minutes North; 72 Degrees 7.3 minutes West
Posted by bbrowniii on Thursday, June 2, 2011 2:45 PM

Manstein's revenge

Ah, I see you fancy yourself a trial lawyer now. 

Well, I did sleep in a Holiday Inn Express last night... Big Smile

Manstein's revenge

 I'll just quote Tracy as a response to your response and let his words tell the facts: "They (Dragon) just don't care enough [about their instructions]."

Not exactly the type of comment you would expect from someone who has pledged their blind allegiane to all things Dragon.

Manstein's revenge

Oh, and wasn't it you that "gave pause" about buying the new Dragon carrier reviewed in the latest issue of FSM because of the reviewer's remarks about the instructions?

Yup, sure was (is). I'm not defending Dragon, or their instructions in this.

'All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing' - Edmund Burke (1770 ??)

 

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Posted by bbrowniii on Thursday, June 2, 2011 2:49 PM

OOOPS. sorry Aaron. Replied before I saw your warning.

I am now walking, BRISKLY, towards the door....Embarrassed

'All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing' - Edmund Burke (1770 ??)

 

  • Member since
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Posted by tankerbuilder on Thursday, June 2, 2011 6:33 PM

I do have to pipe in here . I ,at one time did some "TEST SHOTS " for a now non-existant model car company . As TRACY said ,these can be attrocious AND they (the company) wanted ME to re-write the instructions which wasn,t part of the deal .Now you all would think what can be so hard about building a model car ? Well , when it doesn,t have all the parts , possibly no "glass" and other parts are missing or mal-formed you would not like it.Then develop a paint pattern that can be scanned and converted to decals . Well , it,s a type of work that,s thankless sometimes . I have often thought , why don,t they , DRAGON and TRUMPETER especially , have some kind of proof-reading while building the intended model for say an industry show .They would then possibly do better , as is , I like their kits , not the price , but what are the alternatives?TAMIYA , Shoot their U.S.S. NEW JERSEY at 1/350 costs more per inch than the TRUMPETER U.S.S.ARIZONA at 1/200 !! Let,s take a moment and think, TRACY and others put themselves right in the headlights of the oncoming modelers semi truck , lighten up already !! I would bet ,That the pay , if there is any isn,t worth the dis-respect . I for one will never do that again .I have had folks on this site state , because I am not capable of sending pictures ,that my build of the TRUMPETER ARIZONA , in his words "ain,t happening " Well , there you go , that,s a good example of what this turned into . that,s all ----Tankerbuilder 

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Posted by bbrowniii on Thursday, June 2, 2011 7:01 PM

Now running, in an all out sprint, for the door.... Propeller

'All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing' - Edmund Burke (1770 ??)

 

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Posted by Sprue-ce Goose on Thursday, June 2, 2011 7:02 PM
tankerbuilder wrote the following post on Thursday, June 02, 2011

Let,s take a moment and think, TRACY and others put themselves right in the headlights of the oncoming modelers semi truck , lighten up already !!

[Quote]

Tankerbuilder

Sorry to hear of your troubles and don't understand why you continued to submit to the process.

Though the Dragon employee posting on the forum has been very vociferous in regards to answering hostile comments, he was never civil enough to answer my very civil questions.

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  • From: Illinois: Hive of Scum and Villany
Posted by Sprue-ce Goose on Thursday, June 2, 2011 7:03 PM

bbrowniii

Now running, in an all out sprint, for the door.... Propeller

Tankbuilder was merely trying to give Aaron job security and overtime ( checking posts 24 hrs per day.)

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Posted by Hans von Hammer on Thursday, June 2, 2011 7:03 PM

'Nuff said...

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Posted by Sprue-ce Goose on Thursday, June 2, 2011 7:04 PM

Hans von Hammer

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v233/HansvonHammer/Screenshots/Models/Monogram%20Mafia/monogram-logo.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v233/HansvonHammer/Screenshots/Models/Monogram%20Mafia/Revell_Monogram_logo-1.jpg

'Nuff said...

They know how to treat their customers!

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Posted by iraqiwildman on Thursday, June 2, 2011 7:28 PM

 

Thanks Tracy for explaining how you became an "insider".  Now I need to figure out what to be an expert on.

 

 

"Why can't we all just get along?" Rodney King

Tim Wilding

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Posted by Tracy White on Friday, June 3, 2011 12:28 AM

Sprue-ce Goose
Though the Dragon employee posting on the forum has been very vociferous in regards to answering hostile comments, he was never civil enough to answer my very civil questions.

I hope you're not referring to me; if so I would invite you to re-read the post I made before yours stating that I was not an employee; I just worked WITH them.

I spent 12 hours today driving, 6 the day before that, and the days prior to that getting ready for this trip. I apologize if I missed a question, but I have been a wee bit busy! Either PM it to me or ask here and I'll answer tomorrow; I'm not quite so busy.

Tracy White Researcher@Large

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  • From: Illinois: Hive of Scum and Villany
Posted by Sprue-ce Goose on Friday, June 3, 2011 6:45 AM

Mr. White:

I was under the impression that you were performing your duties for Dragon for compensation of some sort and was unaware you performed those tasks for free.

Seems like an awfully big headache considering Dragon makes a financial profit from what you do for them.

I will PM you when you when you are not so busy.

  • Member since
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  • From: Illinois: Hive of Scum and Villany
Posted by Sprue-ce Goose on Friday, June 3, 2011 9:28 AM

I would like to post a clarification:

Regarding Dragon requiring additional tasks be performed by Mr. White without disclosing the full extent of the required work and not compensating Mr. White in any way:

I believe Mr. White should be paid by Dragon for services rendered.

Just my opinion.

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