Group Builds?

I know what you guys mean.  When I joined here last year I was directed towards the GBs, and that was where I spent most of my time.  I'm starting to look around more, and post more.  I'm doing my second WIP thread in addition to posting in the GB threads.  Like you mentioned Bish, one of the reasons I don't comment a lot is because I feel like most of the builders here are high above my skill level, and I just don't know enough to make informed critiques about accuracy, colors, etc.  I don't have a large reference library, I mostly rely on the internet for pictures of how things should look.  I can't begin to describe how much I've learned here about Luftwaffe colors (I never could have imagined the debates on that subject), names of different parts, history, and so on.  I do a lot of "lurking" and I'm trying to do my best to post more.

Bish

 I think all of us, and I will put myself at the top of the guilty list here, need to make more effort to comment on others builds, more so those who are not part of the 'cliche'

mustang1989

Tojo72

One of the worst things that happens on Group Builds is when you banter,offer constructive criticisim,and commendation and try to acknowledge your fellow builders,but when you post your build,it's like crickets,nobody says nothing,then all of sudden a new post goes up,with no acknowledgement of yours and then the thread takes off without any notice of your post.Sometimes if your not part of the familiar crowd in the build,you are left out.To be fair,this happens more on Armorama,so much that I gave up group builds over there.Over here I would give Tigerman and Deafpanzer a lot of credit for conducting great builds and being attentive to all.Im sure there are others bur i dont do that many so forgive if i missed you.So this is something to be aware of not to kill the fun of being in group build.

You're right about this . I have seen what you're talking about here and as a host I usually end up countering this by when making a comment on an overlooked post, I'll copy that post into my reply pictures and all. It works. Folks will respond in the "How did I miss that? " demeanor and comment on it and it doesn't get missed.

 I've been involved hosting GB's now for the last 2 1/2 years and now I'm hosting two of them! After this year is up I'm going to take a break from them and start posting in the mainstream more. I do admit that I miss a lot being hosting and being stuck in GB's not only here in the forum/ forums but also at the bench. My build pace has slowed to a crawl as of late.

I think one of the problems with commenting on others builds is that there are only so many times you can say well done, nice build and so on. And when people do see things that they thing they may have advice for or see something wrong, they may well be put off from saying. This could be because they thing there own builds are not up to the same level, so maybe they thing they are not in a position to say anything. But also I think the way 'rivet counters' have been condemned over the last few years in the hobby in general, that put people off from offering suggestions or advice even when its asked for.

The lack of comments on others builds isn't restricted to the GB's either. Just check any WiP or completed build thread and compare the number of views with the number of comments. I think all of us, and I will put myself at the top of the guilty list here, need to make more effort to comment on others builds, more so those who are not part of the 'cliche'.

Joe, like you are am planning on dropping out of the GB scene a little. Every build I have done on this forum since I came back in 2008 has been for a GB. I do plan on hosting a couple next year that have been in the pipeline for a while and can't really be postponed, but when I am not building for those, I plan on doing some of my own choosing.

Tojo72

One of the worst things that happens on Group Builds is when you banter,offer constructive criticisim,and commendation and try to acknowledge your fellow builders,but when you post your build,it's like crickets,nobody says nothing,then all of sudden a new post goes up,with no acknowledgement of yours and then the thread takes off without any notice of your post.Sometimes if your not part of the familiar crowd in the build,you are left out.To be fair,this happens more on Armorama,so much that I gave up group builds over there.Over here I would give Tigerman and Deafpanzer a lot of credit for conducting great builds and being attentive to all.Im sure there are others bur i dont do that many so forgive if i missed you.So this is something to be aware of not to kill the fun of being in group build.

 I've been involved hosting GB's now for the last 2 1/2 years and now I'm hosting two of them! After this year is up I'm going to take a break from them and start posting in the mainstream more. I do admit that I miss a lot being hosting and being stuck in GB's not only here in the forum/ forums but also at the bench. My build pace has slowed to a crawl as of late.

I can see where you're coming from Karl. I did post a WIP in the Armor forum as well, and I got a little bit of help correcting a painting mistake at the beginning and someone offered to send me decals to replace the bad silvering I had, but that was about it.  Although with the arrival of spring maybe there is just a lack of traffic on the forums, but I didn't get many responses in the GB forum or the armor forum.

silentbob33

 I felt more comfortable posting my work in the GB forum instead of the theme specific forums.....

......I didn't get a whole of constructive criticism to help me improve. While I didn't expect too many responses, I was hoping for more constructive criticism so I could improve my skills, especially where armor is concerned.

I started in with GBs when I joined the site because someone (maybe Bish?) recommended I check them out, and I usually have a tough time deciding what to build next. I found a couple GBs  that matched up with some kits in my stash and joined in. I really enjoy the comradery and banter that goes into it. Being not quite a novice but far from the talent I see on the forums I felt more comfortable posting my work in the GB forum instead of the theme specific forums. My problem is I over-committed myself, and feel like I'm scrambling to keep up with them. And part of that is that there are so many GBs going on.  I posted a WIP for the M-18 Hellcat I just finished, but I didn't find it as helpful as posting in the GB. Almost all of the posts in the thread are mine. Like I said, my skills aren't near the level I see here, but I didn't get a whole of constructive criticism to help me improve. While I didn't expect too many responses, I was hoping for more constructive criticism so I could improve my skills, especially where armor is concerned.

Karl I see your point and understand it completely. I've been a lot busier in the GB's the past two years and I haven't posted as much (Armor) as I once did because of it, but I also try to post what work I've completed in the right forum. I like to think we have something here for everybody but I do enjoy the group  back and forth on a subject of mutual interest and it's also taken me in areas I wouldn't normally build such as Sci Fi, Star Wars etc, which was an opportunity to try something different. I still check all the forums daily to see whose posted their builds and follow some very good WIP's.  

Terry  

Yes, the host of a Group Build should be checking several times a day for updates to the GB that they are running. And especially making sure that any work posted gets acknowledged. I know that I try to do that on the ones that I have run. Yes, the witty banter and meanderings do happen, but then it is their job to get the thread back on course.

Yup, that's one of a long list of things a good leader watches for. "Get your heads out of the inverted state and see what so and so just did". Maybe a little more kindly.

One of the worst things that happens on Group Builds is when you banter,offer constructive criticisim,and commendation and try to acknowledge your fellow builders,but when you post your build,it's like crickets,nobody says nothing,then all of sudden a new post goes up,with no acknowledgement of yours and then the thread takes off without any notice of your post.Sometimes if your not part of the familiar crowd in the build,you are left out.To be fair,this happens more on Armorama,so much that I gave up group builds over there.Over here I would give Tigerman and Deafpanzer a lot of credit for conducting great builds and being attentive to all.Im sure there are others bur i dont do that many so forgive if i missed you.So this is something to be aware of not to kill the fun of being in group build.

Maybe so, but at least my bench time will be getting into full swing soon enough. Garage starting to warm up for airbrushing use. Got more space to work in the garage now that the snowblowers are put away until next winter and a new grill taking up less space compared to my old one.

And summer being here doesn't help either, as the whole forum starts to slow down.

Nathan T

Bish

Nathan T

Or...I wish FSM could organize the Group builds with each member starting a separate build thread, titled appropriately, so outside folks can follow. Kill 2 birds with one stone.

Sorry, but I strongly disagree with this idea. I have seen it on other GB's and its damn awful. having to keep jumping from one thread to another to see what's going on, it destroys the flow of the GB and will kill off the banter. If you want to be able to share it with others, easy. Do a WiP thread as well.

Yeah its a tough call. There has to be a seperate thread for the GB discussion/chat/reference chatter. Doesn't really matter, as the FSM Mods aren't going to change anything, and this would require more exstensive Mod work than they have time for. I think the biggest thing that will help out this Forum's GB problem is to self impose a minimum of interested people, and for the host to start a feeler thread. As a minimum of people, consider how many out of 10 or so end up not participating, then out of whats left, how many actually finish?? The numbers are awful!! So I would say a minimum of 20-30 interested parties must be show up for a build to get off the ground.No more feeler threads that show only 3 or 5 interested folks.-- I'm just thinking out loud here, not trying to be the forum police

Unfortunately, even with feeler treads and plenty of interested people, that doesn't make it certain you will get lots of builds. Eagle and myself just finished the armour in the west GB's, trying to commemorate the last years of WW2 in Western Europe. Between the 2 GB's we had 44 entries and 18 completions, less than half. Take a look at Wayne's Hard Science GB. It ends in just over a month and has 3 completed builds at the moment. And there are others similar.

This is what I mean about the large number of GB's doing harm. People join in lots of them, but because they don't comment unless they are building, they simply forget. We have also had a lot of new members who have joined GB''s but the not come back to the forum, and in 2 cases new members have started GB's and then left. There is little we can do about that.

I think there are several things that can be done, but they need to be self imposed.

 I have refrained from saying anything over the last couple of months. I did make some comments to people about maybe posting GB's or posting feelers and so on. But I felt I was coming across as the GB police, so in the end I just decided to stand back and hope thing would remedy themselves. But they haven't and I am really concerned as to where its heading.

Bish

Nathan T

Or...I wish FSM could organize the Group builds with each member starting a separate build thread, titled appropriately, so outside folks can follow. Kill 2 birds with one stone.

Sorry, but I strongly disagree with this idea. I have seen it on other GB's and its damn awful. having to keep jumping from one thread to another to see what's going on, it destroys the flow of the GB and will kill off the banter. If you want to be able to share it with others, easy. Do a WiP thread as well.

Yeah its a tough call. There has to be a seperate thread for the GB discussion/chat/reference chatter. Doesn't really matter, as the FSM Mods aren't going to change anything, and this would require more exstensive Mod work than they have time for. I think the biggest thing that will help out this Forum's GB problem is to self impose a minimum of interested people, and for the host to start a feeler thread. As a minimum of people, consider how many out of 10 or so end up not participating, then out of whats left, how many actually finish?? The numbers are awful!! So I would say a minimum of 20-30 interested parties must be show up for a build to get off the ground.No more feeler threads that show only 3 or 5 interested folks.-- I'm just thinking out loud here, not trying to be the forum police

the doog

Bish,

Thanks for the thoughtful and insightful post. It's interesting to hear your views.

I've heard that alot--about guys making friends, chewing the fat, etc--inside of GB's; I guess I just don't understand what prevents anyone from doing that in the main forums?  When I look back on my tme here, since 2007, I've made some great friends here and I've never once done a GB. I guess I can't see why you need to go into a separate forum for that?

Facebook is somewhat like that, and it's one of the reasons that I haven't embraced it as much as some others have. I post up an update now and then, but never as completely or as detailed as I do here. The whole aspect of only "sharing with your friends" -- so as to perhaps inure you from negative criticism??--feels kinda......cheesy to me.

Good lord, I had no idea there were so many GBs going. That does seem entirely excessive! OK, I just took a look at them and some of them seem rather ridiculously all-inclusive and broad, so much so that I would think you'd have a hard time deciding exactly WHAT one your current next model might go into? Like "Any models that fought in the Vietnam War" "Anything that flew in 1945". I mean,,,sheesh.  And it just bums me out that, after looking into some of them briefly, there are some names of people I've never even heard of nor seen in the Armor forums.

There's another very popular site that I stopped frequenting because the traffic on it was too slow--split up by too many too-specific sub-forums. It seems like GBscan tend to do that to the main forums as well. If somebody's holding a "Vietnam" GB, does it basically purge all Vietnam-oriented models from their respective forums? I wonder.

I think the fact that you are in a GB means that you all have something in common and you are all commenting on others builds. I am not saying we can't make friends outside of the GB's, but they just lead to more banter I guess because we all feel part of it.

The GB's certainly are not all well done's and atta boys. there is plenty of constructive comments, I fact possibly more that outside the Gb partly because people know each other better and feel more comfortable in saying something. I know I mentioned my Jagdpanther, but I did so more as an example of how sharing the build in a GB and outside of it opens it to more people and means more chance of advice and suggestions.

Ye, 30 is to excessive, I would say a dozen would be better. But I must hold my hands up here. I guess I am partly to blame for how popular they have become and until a month or so ago, I had 4 running at once. Those broad GB's tend not to do as well as the more focused ones, though the 70th anniversary GB's that have been running for a couple of years are quite popular. I do know what you mean though, I think many have become focused on the GB section alone. And as I said early, its hurting the forum and the GB section. There are a lot of good GB's where plenty of people have committed but then hardly anyone builds. partly I think because they are in so many they have forgotten some they committed to. And quite often, people are only commenting on the GB;'s they are currently building for, which means the others get ignored.

Building something for a particular subject should not draw lots of work away from that section of the forum. But unfortunately, as it currently stands, it is. A few do make the effort to do a WiP thread as well as the GB, best of both worlds. It would help I think if more did this.

Bish,

Thanks for the thoughtful and insightful post. It's interesting to hear your views.

I've heard that alot--about guys making friends, chewing the fat, etc--inside of GB's; I guess I just don't understand what prevents anyone from doing that in the main forums?  When I look back on my tme here, since 2007, I've made some great friends here and I've never once done a GB. I guess I can't see why you need to go into a separate forum for that?

Facebook is somewhat like that, and it's one of the reasons that I haven't embraced it as much as some others have. I post up an update now and then, but never as completely or as detailed as I do here. The whole aspect of only "sharing with your friends" -- so as to perhaps inure you from negative criticism??--feels kinda......cheesy to me.

Good lord, I had no idea there were so many GBs going. That does seem entirely excessive! OK, I just took a look at them and some of them seem rather ridiculously all-inclusive and broad, so much so that I would think you'd have a hard time deciding exactly WHAT one your current next model might go into? Like "Any models that fought in the Vietnam War" "Anything that flew in 1945". I mean,,,sheesh.  And it just bums me out that, after looking into some of them briefly, there are some names of people I've never even heard of nor seen in the Armor forums.

There's another very popular site that I stopped frequenting because the traffic on it was too slow--split up by too many too-specific sub-forums. It seems like GBscan tend to do that to the main forums as well. If somebody's holding a "Vietnam" GB, does it basically purge all Vietnam-oriented models from their respective forums? I wonder.

Nathan T

Or...I wish FSM could organize the Group builds with each member starting a separate build thread, titled appropriately, so outside folks can follow. Kill 2 birds with one stone.

Sorry, but I strongly disagree with this idea. I have seen it on other GB's and its damn awful. having to keep jumping from one thread to another to see what's going on, it destroys the flow of the GB and will kill off the banter. If you want to be able to share it with others, easy. Do a WiP thread as well.

the doog

OK, a dissenting opinion...well known on his forum, so this won't be a surprise to anyone.

I'm against Group Builds. I think that they funnel a lot of traffic away from whatever genre they encompass. For example, a lot of times a certain modeler whose work I really enjoy will just disappear from the Armor forums, and weeks or months later I find out that they're in some bottomless Group Build. Some of the guys who do a lot of them never seem to pop up in the main forums, which is a shame. A lot of work gets finished in these forums that never gets posted on the main forums, although to be fair, some guys will post finished builds when they're done. But of course, then you miss all the steps and corrections, modifications, paint and weathering etc, that they did to finish it.

And forget about trying to find some kind of didactic narrative for a particular model inside of the actual Group Build if you just go in there looking. There's usually so much irrelevant or chummy banter that sometimes you can go a whole page of posts without even a single one revealing anything of relevance or value to an outside observer. The threads can be almost endless sometimes.

Not saying there's anything wrong with being a part of one, they're just not for me. And I would rather the work be done in the public forums, for the sake of a more-inclusive and larger, contributing community.

Karl, I think the banter and having some none modelling related fun is one of the things that attracts many people to GB's. I know that's not for everyone, but many of us have made good 'friends' as much as one can online due to the GB's. But I understand it can be hard to follow for someone who isn't in the GB, popular GB's can be hard to follow for those in them at times. Built the banter is all part of the fun and to remove that would kill them I think.

But I do have to agree with much of what you say. I have come to feel lately that the way the GB's are going, they are doing real harm not just to the GB section but to the forum as a whole. The main problems being just far to many GB's and a real lack of commitment. There is also little thought going into the GB's with many being started on a whim. We used to have a good mix of GB's and WiP threads. But while there are currently 30 or so GB's, the number of WiP threads could probably be counted on one hand. And I think people are missing out. Not only the people watching but the builder as well. I put my Jagdpanther in a GB and a WiP thread, and without the latter, it would have been a complete disaster.

We are very fortunate here in that we are allowed to run the GB;s by ourselves without being dictated to from on high. But I think we need to remember the saying 'With great power comes great responsibility'.

Jay you couldn't find my plane cause it's in the "50th Anniversary Vietnam War Group Build".

I for one like and enjoy the GB's. A lot of information can be obtained that will come in very handy sooner or later.

I agree with Nathan T.  I tried to find Plasticjunkie's B-26 in a WWII  Gb and never found it. There where 700 posts in it.

Also when you type GB's in the search you get very little info.

Or...I wish FSM could organize the Group builds with each member starting a separate build thread, titled appropriately, so outside folks can follow. Kill 2 birds with one stone.

the doog

Some of the guys who do a lot of them never seem to pop up in the main forums, which is a shame. A lot of work gets finished in these forums that never gets posted on the main forums, although to be fair, some guys will post finished builds when they're done. But of course, then you miss all the steps and corrections, modifications, paint and weathering etc, that they did to finish it.

That's usually why I post a separate WIP thread on the public forum at the same time. I encourage others to do the same when I host a GB.

Steve

To each his own I guess.

OK, a dissenting opinion...well known on his forum, so this won't be a surprise to anyone.

I'm against Group Builds. I think that they funnel a lot of traffic away from whatever genre they encompass. For example, a lot of times a certain modeler whose work I really enjoy will just disappear from the Armor forums, and weeks or months later I find out that they're in some bottomless Group Build. Some of the guys who do a lot of them never seem to pop up in the main forums, which is a shame. A lot of work gets finished in these forums that never gets posted on the main forums, although to be fair, some guys will post finished builds when they're done. But of course, then you miss all the steps and corrections, modifications, paint and weathering etc, that they did to finish it.

And forget about trying to find some kind of didactic narrative for a particular model inside of the actual Group Build if you just go in there looking. There's usually so much irrelevant or chummy banter that sometimes you can go a whole page of posts without even a single one revealing anything of relevance or value to an outside observer. The threads can be almost endless sometimes.

Not saying there's anything wrong with being a part of one, they're just not for me. And I would rather the work be done in the public forums, for the sake of a more-inclusive and larger, contributing community.

Bish,

Thanks for the idea.

Souda, there are no Cold War GB, but there are a couple of Vietnam GB's at the moment. If you can't find a GB that suits a build you want to do, you can always do a WiP thread.

Ulterior, most GB's run from between 6 and 12 months. Some GB's can be set around dates that are relevant to the GB.

What is the usual time frame?

I guess it varies but can you give us a frame of reference?

Does anyone happen to know of a cold war era GB?