famous/infamous relatives, straw-grasping welcome!

Who opened the gates to the zoo and let these animals out? Run for your life, there are wild animals loose.

Interesting and rare views from the land of the rising sun.
Thanks for the history lesson fellas.

J-hulk.
I have one question though.
Are the younger people in Japan just not interested in their culturel past or do they seem ashamed of it?

My cousin's camp counsler fought for Israel (Can't remember which! How many have they had?) in one of their wars. One of his squadmates sacrificed himself to save the squad form a grenade. War sucks.

BARsrule2

QUOTE: Originally posted by BARsrule2 My cousin's camp counsler fought for Israel (Can't remember which! How many have they had?) in one of their wars. One of his squadmates sacrificed himself to save the squad form a grenade. War sucks. BARsrule2

This probably should be under some "OT" thread, but this one brought the following to mind, so I'll post it here.

Please excuse my inserting something that may be considered too political a statement, but maybe the "War sucks" comment has a lot of bearing on the fact that so many patriotic American kitbuilders here have large model collections of "enemy" subjects. Regardless of which side they were on, we modellers seem to pay more respect to former "enemies" as "warriors" than the average person.

As examples, when was the last time you heard something negative said by a modeller about von Richtoven? How irritated are you about the omission of swastika decals in a Messershmitt 109 or Hindenburg kit bacause of advocates for political correctness?

Maybe it's just me due to my upbringing. My father was a WWII veteran who served in the Pacific. He earned a purple heart and other medals while under fire from Japanese soldiers. I don't know the details of why he raised me the way he did, but if I had used the words "Jap" or Nip" to refer to his former enemies, I have no doubt that he would have used his boot to make sure I had to do a headstand to use the bathrooom. Despite the years he spent fighting the Japanese in the Pacific campaign, he believed that I should have some respect for those he fought against and had wounded him.

Maybe my experience is rare, but I'm curious. I have about as many kits for "enemy" aircraft, former and current, as I do American subjects, yet I don't have any illusions about the horrors many of these enemy regimes inflicted on humanity. Why is it that so many of us are patriotic, yet are so eager to include "enemy" subjects in our collections along with those that depict allied aircraft, etc.?

Emphasizing, once again, I don't quite know how to explain my own patterns, so I'm asking for insight from others who do the same.

Thanks in advance for any input on the matter.

That's a very thoughtful post, Kugai.

Perhaps the fascination with "enemy" equipment lies in the "danger" element, the "excitement" and "thrill" that goes with the threat. The same reason so many people love sharks (Shark Week on Discovery!) and dinosaurs and whatnot. It could kill you. Is there some kind of strange attraction for us to this kind of danger? Or is it the respect we feel for something we know could easily take us out?

A simpler thought might be just the attraction of the sheer diversity and variety of equipment the enemy used, if we take, say, Germany and Japan in WWII. They just had sooo much stuff! In a thousand different color combinations, too. And some people just say it's "cool." Those guys had cool stuff.

I'm not saying this is how I personally feel (not consciously, anyway!), but it may be true for some people.

I'm afraid my reasons for having so much "enemy" equipment is probably much shallower than all the above. I'm just fascinated by machines, no matter who makes 'em, and I just happen to like the designs the axis powers used. And I like BIG machines, so where'm I gonna turn to? Yup!

Sometimes I get philosophical, look around the room, and say to myself, "everything I've built here was designed to destroy."

Sometimes I tell myself they were designed to protect, but that rationale falls short when I think about the German vehicles. They were designed to conquer.

Shermans and T-34s were designed to protect!

Then I return to normal and get back to work planning my 1/16 Tiger I build!

Very thought-provoking post, Kugai.

James, it's my impression that the young people here, like in the States (my only two experiences!), are simply uninterested in things like history, traditional arts, literature, etc. There are shows on TV lamenting this sad point all the time, with spot quizzes given to high school kids on the street. History and geography seem to be two very weak points for these kids!
I don't get the impression they are ashamed at all.

Of course everyone is aware of WWII and all the implications it has for modern Japan, but pre-WWII? Forget about it! I find myself screaming the answers at the TV whenever they do those spot quizzes!!

QUOTE: Originally posted by J-Hulk [b]History and geography seem to be two very weak points for these kids! I don't get the impression they are ashamed at all.

I can't believe it, but I've met fellow college students who have never heard of the Holocaust.

Ironically, I saw the person later on the campus tv channel comparing our president to Hitler.

Madda,

I have an interesting book on Japanese history at home. I will get the title and author of it and post it for you. I will try to find it tonight and post tomorrow. It was a book that we used in my Japanese history class, so it may be something that you are looking for.

Jerry

Cool, I'd love to get the info. Maybe some book store around here might have it. History is neat.

madda

Without understanding the past, one has no concept of the future.

Sage wisdom on that one wibhi2.

Perhaps the similar: "Those who are ignorant of the past are doomed to repeat it" may explain why some of us model in the patterns that we do.

I don't do much in the way of WWII stuff, I grew up watching the latter half of the Cold War unfold on the nightly news. I'm very picky about model shopping, and the Eastern European post war stuff catches my attention most often.

I remember being a little kid in the mid 70s and not really understanding the full significance of the latest incident of Canadian Voodoos scrambling to form up on a Bear that came over the Pole, but knowing, if nothing else, it was something to cause apprehension.

I remember the unflattering stereotypes of the former Soviet Union and its people portrayed in Hollywood productions and so forth....

I remember getting to the point of wondering " Come on, this is ridiculous, how bad could they be? They're just people somewhere else in different circumstances, right?"

So began my intrest with things Russian and otherwise Central and Eastern European, absolutely fascinating stuff from many angles.

I've been working on Revell's 1/32 MiG-21 off and on for nearly five years now, the 21 is one of my favorite aircraft and I've lavished more attention on this one than any other model I've had.

Of all the things we seem to repeat from the past, war seems to keep coming up. Hopefully one day we'll work it out of the pattern.

QUOTE: Originally posted by J-Hulk Of course everyone is aware of WWII and all the implications it has for modern Japan, but pre-WWII? Forget about it! I find myself screaming the answers at the TV whenever they do those spot quizzes!!

J-Hulk, some history shows I've seen on TV here state that the Japanese historians' perspective on Pearl Harbor is that it wasn't a surprise attack or unprovoked. One reason for this that I know of is the economic sanctions we had going at the time. Maybe another ( I've never heard anyone mention it specifically ) was the use of American "volunteer" forces like the Flying Tigers, against Japanese forces in Asia without a formal declaration of war on our part.

And, of course, there's the possibility that the movie, "Tora, Tora, Tora" was accurate about the Japanese intention ro formally declare war just minutes before the attack. According to the movie, slow typing and decoding led to the crucial schedule not being met and the declaration being delivered after the attack instead. I don't know how accurate this portrayal was, since I've never seen or heard mention of it anywhere else.

I'm not saying that we deserved the Pearl Harbor attack, I'm just listing possible motivational factors.

One question I have is this. How much of the lack of knowledge ( in the general public, as shown in the TV quizzes you mentioned ) in Japan on the pre-war era is due to the unique cultural pride of the Japanese, and how much was started during the post-war occupation by Americans trying to instill a feeling of shame and dishonor over Pearl Harbor?

Of course, the quiz show participants could just have the same attitude about history as many Americans. "Who cares about a bunvh of old, dead guys?" I've heard this said many, many times over here.

My dad used to say "Education is wasted on the young." and now that I'm getting older (if 36 is older) I'm begining to understand what he ment, I didn't use to give a damn about history and now it seems like I can't get enough of it.

Hi, folks!

Interesting points, Upnorth! I remember exactly what you're talking about as far as the portrayals of the Soviets during those years.

Kugai, there is quite a bit of debate over here as well over the circumstances that led to the Pearl Harbor attack, including the very points you brought up.

In my opinion, the lack of knowledge displayed in the pop quizzes of high school kids in the street that I mentioned is not the result of Japanese pride or the American post-war occupation, but simply kids being kids, nore concerned with modern pop culture than their own cultural history. Of course this is a broad, sweeping generalization of young people, but it is the image of modern youth as depicted in Japan's own media. A national crisis, they say.

On the other hand, I have seen high school debate shows and quiz shows here featuring extremely bright youngsters who are very interested in their country's past as well as its future.

So, I'd wager the modern problem is the same as that around the world: kids just wanna have fun!

QUOTE: Originally posted by J-Hulk Hi, folks! Interesting points, Upnorth! I remember exactly what you're talking about as far as the portrayals of the Soviets during those years.

I too was a "product" of the cold war. I joined the Navy right out of High school in 1980 and spent most of the '80's "sparring" with the Eastern Bloc countrys. We were basicly taught to "hate" them as the "enemy" (sorry Alexsander).

Then when my destroyer was inport at Naples, Italy in the winter of 89-90. A russian ship moored to the same dock we were. I think she was a cruise ship but my memory is fuzzy on that. One day I was passing the Quarterdeck Deck when one of the watchstanders told me about a russian sailor at the bottom of the gangway that wanted to buy a ship's embroyered ballcap.
I decided why not and went down and talked to him. Very nice guy, spoke passable but limited English. I sold him a fairly new cap (about $15) for a 10 ruble bill. I knew that it was worthless outside of russia, and not very much. But those guys didn't make very much either. We shook hands and both left with smiles on our faces. Yea I got the "short" end of the deal, but I like to think that I did my own little part to give an old advisary a better idea of who we really are. They weren't the "bad guys" we had been taught to believe.


J-Hulk, I just can't stop myself from asking this so here it goes. When you are screaming the answers back at the TV are you screaming in Japanese or English (as if they could hear you anyways). It just fasinates me so much, your living over there so long and being so fluent in Japanese. Me I'm lucky I can speak proper English. Let alone learn a 2nd language.
Also have you gotten to the point that when you talk to yourself is it in Japanese.

Thanks J-HULK.
This is getting good.

Tim,
In Japanese, of course. The TV wouldn't understand if I screamed at it in English!

James, yes, this is all quite interesting!

Now...what was the topic of this thread again??

Madda,

The text that we used is called "Japan: Tradition and Transformation". It is by Edwin O. Reischauer and Albert M. Craig. Published by the Houghton - Mifflin Company, the date on my copy is 1989 but I believe that there is a newer edition out. Hope that this is a good one for you.

Jerry

Cool, I'll start shopping local bookstores for it. Thanks Jerry. Maybe I'll go through Amazon, might just save a lot of driving. I do like persuing bookstores though.


madda

QUOTE: Originally posted by Pixilater My father flew a B-24 on the raid of the Ploesti oil fields in Romania, Operation Tidal Wave. He may not have been famous, but everyone who went on that mission is deserving of mention.

My grandfather was a tail gunner on the same mission to Ploesti. Brought up the rear on "Southern Comfort" 44th bomb group, 509th bomb sqdn. Was shot down one week later over Fogia, Italy. Later escaped prison camp at Sulmona, Italy with most of his crew, two died in the crash, and reached the allied lines in October43.

QUOTE: Originally posted by J-Hulk Tim, In Japanese, of course. The TV wouldn't understand if I screamed at it in English! James, yes, this is all quite interesting! Now...what was the topic of this thread again??

You had to ask !!!
Now I have to go back to page one.

(Still I kind'a like it when these topics drift.)

Yes James, whole new worlds can unfold before our very eyes when the topic drifts!

My cousin (from my dad's side) is the late actor Robert Shaw.

Eric, didn't he get eaten by a shark?

And get blown up by Kojak?

on my mothers side i am related to susan b anthony and benidict arnold, who as you all know is a very famous revolutionary war hero/traitor. contrary to popular belief was not a traitor at all but a double agent for us. yahoo.

"If its not plastic it aint worth building"

That's because he wasn't in a REAL King Tiger

The shark, I can't do anything about

Great topic and some very funny repostes. The white sheep seem to outnumber the black.My claim to fame is that my ancestor was Claude Duval (English despite the name) the infamous Highwayman and contemporary of Dick Turpin. He was hanged for his crimes but was always a gentleman. Demanding a kiss from his lady victims.Hundreds of titled women attended his execution,in tears.
As for me I survived the last half of the twentieth century and hope to see the first half of this one.

I've got a cousin that is a state Representive in [W?] Virginia, his dad [an uncle] was one too. also direct decendent of Danial B. Tompkins ,vice prez to Madison {I think}. so being that I have all these politicians in the family, I guess it puts us over on the "blacksheep" side

also have a friend of the family who at Pearl Harbor on 12/7/41
aboard the USS Curtis.

I'm related to Daniel Boone on my father's side of the family. Boone was a famous frontiersman who was largely responsible for the exploration and settlement of Kentucky.

One of my close friends from High School is related to John Finley, one of Boone's long-time companions.

-Mark