back slapping verses face slapping...

MortarMagnet wrote:

How many movie critics are top notch actors/writers/producers/directors?  Not many.  You don't have to be good to know what is good.

Actually, I believe it's NONE. I'm fond of the old saying "Those who can, do. Those who can't, criticize". It's one thing to build models and comment on the builds of others, and quite another to have never acted, written, produced or directed yet decry other's efforts. Some of the worst POS I've ever watched were recommended by a movie critic! I detest movie critics!

but  bbrown  i understand what your saying  but to  me (in my mind only) i will not comment on a bad job  because i feel my lack of ability does reflect on what (again  in my mind only) i can or should cast neg comments on

i hope you understand my thought here

DURR wrote:

when i look at someone's work any comment i make is based on MY building abilityor limitations on a scale of 1-10 my best model is a 5 and most of them are closer  to a 3.75, i am not really good but i build just for fun i would never enter a contest  i have been modeling for 40 yrs  and my level is that of a 12 yr old   i am not being harsh on my self  but realistic  now how this relates to comments i make on others   if it is better than mine i will say so

DURR,

But regardless of your personal skills, you can look at someone else's work and make a judgement call about how pleasing it looks to you.  I don't see anything wrong with you or me or anyone with mediocre skills commenting (even critically) on the work of people whose skills are judged better than ours.  Just because I might not be able to paint a perfect camoflage pattern should not prevent me from commenting to someone, "Hey, man, that blue tiger striping just doesn't look right to me on your Panther", or whatever. 

SteveM wrote:

You want a tank? Heck, I can get you a tank by 2pm today. With nail polish, Dude

What color nail polish???

SteveM wrote:

I'm guilty of coming to the defense of a young modeler when I saw a post on his thread that would've had me logging out permanently and selling off my stash. But I now think that betrayed my own fragility. This is something that I'd like to change about myself in all aspects.

SteveM,

I don't think there is a problem with defending any modeler whose work has been trashed in a way that would make them want to log off forever.  The thing is, how often does that happen, particularly on this site?  More often than not, I think any criticism that is offered is pretty mild and is intended to be constructive.  Now as has been pointed out already, the key thing the internet lacks is the ability to effective convey your tone of voice, facial expression and other forms of non-verbal communication in a post.  That being said, words that I type and that to me are meant to be mild, constructive, maybe even witty and humorous, may come across as mean spirited and spiteful to some people who read them.  There is nothing I can do about that, but at the same time, I think some people might want to take a moment and, instead of getting reflexively irrate and jumping to the defense of the poor soul who has been savaged by my words (I don't know if any of my words could really be described as 'savage'... ), give me (this would be the collective 'me') the benefit of the doubt and consider that I am not out to slay anyone but am instead trying to offer words of encouragment and suggestions on ways to improve.  (WOW, that is one LOOOONG sentence...  I'm not even sure if it makes sense... but it sounded so good in my head... )

jwb wrote:

Triarius wrote:  "Didn't the Pzkpfw. III, Ausf. Q, as license built in Libya, have three extra rings welded to the back of the hull as camel attachment points?" Only if they carried the camels that had one hump.

Triarius wrote:

"Didn't the Pzkpfw. III, Ausf. Q, as license built in Libya, have three extra rings welded to the back of the hull as camel attachment points?"

Only if they carried the camels that had one hump.

eizzle wrote:

they airbrushed a dog turd (whats with all the dog poo???) I don't understand,

if they scratch built something nice out of the poo and some resin or p/e   it may be a great model

when i look at someone's work any comment i make is based on MY building abilityor limitations

on a scale of 1-10 my best model is a 5 and most of them are closer  to a 3.75, i am not really good but i build just for fun i would never enter a contest  i have been modeling for 40 yrs  and my level is that of a 12 yr old   i am not being harsh on my self  but realistic 

now how this relates to comments i make on others   if it is better than mine i will say so

if it looks worse than mine ( and yes there are a few (just a few though) of you out there, some very popular guys too) that have models that look worse  i will not insult and therefore will not even make a comment

, Rob.

Even rivet counters can offer useful critique, but again, it's all in the delivery and attitude. When you are the expert on a subject, it doesn't hurt to be deferential, now and then, as in: "Didn't the Pzkpfw. III, Ausf. Q, as license built in Libya, have three extra rings welded to the back of the hull as camel attachment points?" Phrasing an error as a question is a lot less hostile than even a pedantic statement. (And I hope there is no such vehicle…

And one of the things you learn as an expert is that you don't know everything. (Been there. Done that. Wrote the papers, got the t-shirt, turned down the book contract like an idiot…) The easiest way to spot a real expert is by their humility—the one thing they really know is the extent of their own ignorance.

The problem with a website vs. a real life club is that when a model is shown, you have no way of knowing if the builder is a kid, teen, novice, adult, expert, etc.

I agree that some people can be unnecessarily harsh. That's a phenomenon I call "keyboard courage". Those people feel they can be bullies because of the anonymity of the internet. They thrive on conflict and enjoy feeling superior when they pick apart other people's work. The only way to deal with these types of people is to ignore them.

Most members of this site (at least in the armor forum) are not like that and only provide feedback that they think is helpful to the builder. Some may be more direct than others, but in the armor forum, I rarely see anyone providing feedback that is unfriendly.

Sometimes the feedback provided is on the quality of the building, and other times it is about accuracy. People who provide feedback regarding accuracy get called rivet counters by the defenders.

Well guys i'm one of those that likes to complement others when they post pics of their builds and i'm not being insincere when i do . I just enjoy see the pics of other people work and i appreciate the time and effort that it took to build the model , take the pic and then post it . I dont know that much about the actual vehicles so i dont see the discrepencies if there are any . So the next time you see me post a complement to someones build you'll know that it is really how i feel and i am not being a foney ......

SHL -

I'm guilty of coming to the defense of a young modeler when I saw a post on his thread that would've had me logging out permanently and selling off my stash. But I now think that betrayed my own fragility. This is something that I'd like to change about myself in all aspects.

I will always ask for the hardball and I promise to mean it and, if I am lucky to receive it, will accept it for what it is- a solicited critique that I will use to better my skills. And I do want it from the rivet counters as well. I can slap together a tank. Easy. You want a tank? Heck, I can get you a tank by 2pm today. With nail polish, Dude 

SteveM 

The problem I have, being newly back into the hobby, is that 90% of what I see on the forums is something I sit back and say "Wow- I wish I could do that." Maybe I'm just easily impressed, but I honestly feel like most things I see others do is a motivation for me because they're better than what I feel I can do.

I think I can do a decent job- I could probably do better if I was more serious about it. But for someone still developing in the hobby, this place is full of amazing people.

And just so everyone will know- gratuitous praise is fine with me.

Great Thread, I wish mine was this good!

Ok, so the moral of the story is be helpful, and try to be aware of others attempts at being helpful.  Not every "negative" comment is a dig.  Please, be descriptive with comments on builds.  Did I sum it up properly, or did I miss the point? 

Rob,

I'm not against criticism, unless it's nasty or unwanted, and I'm not against praise, unless it's over the top or unwarranted. And I fully agree that when someone does offer construction critiques people shouldn't rush to defend the "victim". All I'm trying to point out how difficult it is to present either without misunderstandings happenings

the other hand I'm not in this hobby for any reason other than it gives me pleasure to build kits. If I did want a critique of my armor, I would likely ask you and Gino directly in  a PM.

Bill

HeavyArty wrote:

I also am a pretty straight shooter who tells it like it is.  I will continue to give constructive criticism.  If you can't handle it, either don't post, or have a little thick skin and realize you can improve your abilities if you follow some of the constructive criticism given.  Getting off my..

Amen to that... 

Bgrigg wrote:

Forums are both a great place for info and a bad place for critiques. I, myself, have stopped from dishing out gratuitous praise, unless somebody comes along and says "look what my 8 (or whatever) child did" for in that case I will always say "Fabulous", "Great" or to steal a line from Triarius "Break his thumbs!". My level of knowledge does not allow me to know when someone is making an error in accuracy, and my skills are at a level where I need more help than I can be.  It can be difficult to "critique" someone's work with only words, we don't have the ability to "say" things with our soft voices, and that can lead to bad feelings. Knowing how to word praise or criticism properly is a rare skill in itself. Look at what happened to Hawxboss when he poised his thread the other day. He was trying to voice a real question, but managed to get people's knickers in a knot. It annoyed me and I tend to agree with him! So I agree we should stop the back slapping, but work on how we can offer advice and criticism without the face slapping.

They are the ones who decrease the credibilty of sites like this and cause strife within the forums. The builder normally appreciates the insight and comments, it's his "self-proclaimed defenders" that are the problem and cause the flame wars making issues out of non-issues.

SteveM says it is your forum. I think we have a core "back-slapping" members who think it is their site and just let the rest of us participate. As long as we don't critique anyone's work.

Forums are both a great place for info and a bad place for critiques. I, myself, have stopped from dishing out gratuitous praise, unless somebody comes along and says "look what my 8 (or whatever) child did" for in that case I will always say "Fabulous", "Great" or to steal a line from Triarius "Break his thumbs!". My level of knowledge does not allow me to know when someone is making an error in accuracy, and my skills are at a level where I need more help than I can be. 

It can be difficult to "critique" someone's work with only words, we don't have the ability to "say" things with our soft voices, and that can lead to bad feelings. Knowing how to word praise or criticism properly is a rare skill in itself.

Look at what happened to Hawxboss when he poised his thread the other day. He was trying to voice a real question, but managed to get people's knickers in a knot. It annoyed me and I tend to agree with him!

So I agree we should stop the back slapping, but work on how we can offer advice and criticism without the face slapping.

I agree with most of the above members.  There is too much gratuitous praise here and too little actual constructive comments.  My feeling is that no model is perfect and we can all learn from constructive criticism.  No one learns anything from "Looks great, awesome job."  My bigger complaint is when someone does give constructive criticism, they get jumped on by others telling them that the model looks great and how can you criticise, etc.....  We each have our opinions, and both sides should be respected.  Also, if you post pics out on the web to be seen by all, you have to expect to get some criticism along with praise.  I for one appreciate it.  I also am a pretty straight shooter who tells it like it is.  I will continue to give constructive criticism.  If you can't handle it, either don't post, or have a little thick skin and realize you can improve your abilities if you follow some of the constructive criticism given. 

Getting off my..

Triarius wrote:

Rob, I think I understand your apparent loathing for gratuitous praise—one can't help wondering whether it's really sincere. But I'd rather see too much of that than too little. This is a very discouraging world, and I'd rather see encouragement given than not. And there's nothing wrong with being diplomatic and soft-spoken—people listen better. And, as I'm sure you know, it makes a much larger impression when the diplomatic, soft-spoken person roars! Took me an awful long time to learn that… I, too, am very reluctant to critique another's work—some will have noted that I rarely respond to posted WIP's or completed projects, except in the case of children—we need to encourage the next generation of modelers as much as possible! I may do so if the modeler specifically requests it, but even then I am reluctant. It's not that I'm afraid of hurting feelings (they asked for it) or the wrath of others. The reason is simple humility, and that I'm looking at a picture with 72 dpi resolution. The camera is very unforgiving, and does not see the way the human eye does (better in some ways, worse in others—"Where the %##@! did that dust speck come from!"). And 72 dpi is not much. As for color, what I'm seeing on the monitor may be completely different than what is on the model. And I may give up on the software of this forum, but the people—not.

There is a difference between being a critic and a coach. Many members on this forum will attack you for being either.

As for gratuitous praise, I've given a short 'good build' or 'great job' to people who posted their work. None of which is ever gratuitous, if I didn't likes some work because I don't like the style - i.e. 'heavy or not panel empahsis', 'too much or too little weathering' - I just wont post anything. If I see some specific problem, I'll mention it.

If your modelling skills are high, some of the praise may seem gratuitous. But for many others with varying degrees of skills, they could very well be honest in praise.

Rob, BTW, I've received your critiques before and I appreciate them. As many have said, its not critique but it's how the critique is delivered.

Rob Gronovius wrote:

I agree that one should not say that someone's work "sux" or looks like "doggie-doo", but to just say "great job", "looks good", "tastes great", "less filling" does not help a serious modeler improve his or her skills.

Rob, doggie-doo, tastes great, less filling, you make me chuckle.  Although, less filling can be a very useful bit of advice.

Perhaps, so many heavy handed comments have occurred to novice builders, that (being a self moderated forum) the "civic minded" members that defend novices have become overly zealous.  I believe most of the builds here to be unremarkable.  Most comments seem to be the,  "I don't know what to say, but I would like to acknowledge this persons work... Nice work, I heard that kit was pretty good.  What did you think?"

Rob, I think I understand your apparent loathing for gratuitous praise—one can't help wondering whether it's really sincere.

But I'd rather see too much of that than too little. This is a very discouraging world, and I'd rather see encouragement given than not.

And there's nothing wrong with being diplomatic and soft-spoken—people listen better. And, as I'm sure you know, it makes a much larger impression when the diplomatic, soft-spoken person roars! Took me an awful long time to learn that…

I, too, am very reluctant to critique another's work—some will have noted that I rarely respond to posted WIP's or completed projects, except in the case of children—we need to encourage the next generation of modelers as much as possible! I may do so if the modeler specifically requests it, but even then I am reluctant. It's not that I'm afraid of hurting feelings (they asked for it) or the wrath of others. The reason is simple humility, and that I'm looking at a picture with 72 dpi resolution. The camera is very unforgiving, and does not see the way the human eye does (better in some ways, worse in others—"Where the %##@! did that dust speck come from!"). And 72 dpi is not much. As for color, what I'm seeing on the monitor may be completely different than what is on the model.

And I may give up on the software of this forum, but the people—not.