The moral high ground

It's history, and it's just a model...... people are always looking for a fight.....

don't let it bother you breezely............


to heck with what people think!!! build 'cause YOU want to...

I believe that what we make are representations of the MACHINERY of HISTORY. I haven't seen anyone in the modelling world build out of political idealism. You know why you build what you build. That is your choice. If someone sees it as political advertising, that is their choice. I think that its important to remember that the original machines and the models are built by people, regardless of which point on the globe and what era into which they were born. There is no choice there. But we can choose how we view objects & representations of objects.
You can't change a person's ideas or beliefs. That is something only they can do. If they choose not to appreciate the results of a lot of effort & hard work, its their loss.

Its a hobby....THATS ALL! I build what I like...doesnt mean I support the political motivation or reasoning behind the forces that employed the machine! Geesh what is this world coming too....I shoot firearms for a hobby does that mean Im an armed maniac?(dont answer that!).....Just another example of the liberals in this country/elsewhere running off at the mouth for something which they have very little or no understanding of!

Dont let it get to you....Are you a murderer for helping build subs...Nope in my book your one of the behind the scenes heroes and I tip my hat to you!

Moral high ground my a**. I build to please myself first and foremost. If others appreciate my efforts, good for them. If not, that's their loss. As far as the morality, etc, anyone that pursues that line of thought at a typical gathering of modellers has an agenda very different from everyone else there. PC myopia strikes again. breezyely1, I think that the nun you encountered needs to get out more, or at least read about it. There are true monsters in this world, and guys like you and me certainly don't qualify for that title. You want murderes? Look to Iraq pre 1990; look at Cambodia around 1975......you know the litany as well as I do. Monsters like that are ignored because it didn't happen here, so the little guys get targeted because it's an easy out. Sorry, didn't mean to stand on the soapbox for so long. Usually, the only comments I draw about the models I build from non-believers are about "grown men/women playing with toys".

Breezly I think I understand what you're saying and my answer to you is if you don't plan on becoming a politician, don't worry about it. You don't have to be "politically correct"


Just build what you want to build and we'll try to keep the "PC's" from telling us we can't by voting for the better ones. I have a hard time understanding some of the European countries keeping swastica's from even being on a decal sheet. I'd try to make sure everyone remembered the history myself instead of trying to forget it. That only opens the door for it too happen again. A symbol doesn't have anything to do with what happened.

Eric

Often when history forgets its self it is destined to re-peat itself....for God sakes I hope not!

I hope we can get past this PC thing before we become a nation of wimps and whinners. Next time someone complains tell them to build their model the way they want it and if yours offends their delicate sensablities, they can avert their gaze.

I believe that most of us here build not to make any political statements of some sorts but to just to do something that we like to do most - build models. And that's all there is to it. No more or less.

Build to satisfy yourself and not someone else. You did not write or make history, you are only displaying it. To ignore that part of history, is to pretend it did not happen. If you build a German WW ll aircraft, with kill markings on it, and someone questions your patriotism because of it, they do not understand history. A lot of bad things have happened through history. To ignore or pretend they didn't happen is like sticking your head into the sand. You have not accomplished or changed anything. You just look foolish.

As for building weapons as a living, some worked as a deterent to prevent more powerful weapons from being used.

When I came back from South East Asia after spending four years there, a war protestor looked at the awards on my uniform and asked. "Which one of those is for killing small children"? I just pointed to one and said "This one" and walked off. He just stood there speachless because that wasn't what he was expecting.

I once worked with a very wise man.
He told me that most modelers are fans of technology and what the machines do,not what they were used for.
When I build I don't vision a sherman blowing holes in people.
I see a piece of technology and history.
Next time someone tells you are a bad person for building a product for use in defence of our nation
Ask them what they have done for this country and to protect our(and their's) freedom.
Then remind them that this a free country and they are free to leave it any time.
You may even want to offer to buy them a one way ticket to the country of their choice.

I've wondered if I should build my Luftwaffe models also.
I guess this comes from having to look over my shoulder in our free
country so I don't get ambushed. Aaah the joys of progress.
How would the sister feel if she was held responsible for
the churches actions throughout history? She's not a murderer and
neither are you.People have questioned my motives for building military
models.What really bothers me about it is some of these people
question a persons morality etc. and claim their superiority.
They'll criticize you for every little mistake and will not
think twice about saying or doing whatever it takes to hurt someone
or get ahead in life. So much for the high ground.
Fuzzy

dont scratch the old wound...that was a heat topic with my old classmates (dont want to get political but mostly communists..yes we have plenty of them left in europe...lol) when i was showing them german, japanese, even finnish models....for a reason when they saw the yaks and sturmoviks with all these graffitis and slogans they were all joy!!!!
i wonder how they cannot understand that they are reflections of history and not political manifestations.....
ps as you are aware Walter Nowotny;s remains were removed from Austrian Invalides the heroes cemetery on the ground of his nazist past....the petition was started by a counsilor of british-jewish extraction- nothing implied just a fact-that had his grandparent killed as a bomber command crew. On the same way we saw the destruction of stalin's lenin's even saddam's statutes..i think samples of them should remain so noone forgets the past. as they say if ou have not learned from the past you are doomed to repeat it.

I've seen a few kooky people around - Holocaust deniers, revisionists - that also happen to be very good modellers who build almost entirely WW2 German stuff. I don't think the two are connected, rather the modelling flows from the same historical interest have most of us share in a period, even if that interest has developed along mislead and errorneous paths.
I doubt any modeller was corrupted by his hobby - there are far more insidious influences on people than sticking bits of plastic together and painting them. It can be an extension of an unhealthy interest in (for example) Nazism, but I doubt it has ever created it in the first instance. Just my 2p

QUOTE: Breezly I think I understand what you're saying and my answer to you is if you don't plan on becoming a politician, don't worry about it. You don't have to be "politically correct"

Yeah, but you can deny it on television like most politicians do.....

"I did not have relations with that model kit" or "I just opened the box but I did not use the glue"

QUOTE: Originally posted by Erock68 QUOTE: Breezly I think I understand what you're saying and my answer to you is if you don't plan on becoming a politician, don't worry about it. You don't have to be "politically correct" Yeah, but you can deny it on television like most politicians do..... "I did not have relations with that model kit" or "I just opened the box but I did not use the glue"

ROFL someone remembers the Clinton days and the BS he was pumping the nation! Good One....my side still hurts!

This forum is for modelling, NOT politics!!!!!!!!


We now return you to our regualarly scheduled modelling!!!!

Thanks everyone for your input. Make no mistake, I've always been proud of my role in our nations defense and am happily working on our nations next generation WMD. But after seeing the strong anti-SS sentiment in the armor forum, it made me stop and think. I always took it for granted that, if you built a Tiger tank , you wouldn't have a problem putting SS unit markings on it. It never occurred to me that not everyone would see it that way. To those people who wont put the swastika on your German plane or the 3rd SS on your Tiger tank, you now have my deepest respect. I've always modelled for historical accuracy and will continue to do so. Didn't mean to turn this into a PC forum, just wanted to know if anyone had been criticized for their choices.

My mother is French and was raised in France during the war-her father was crippled by the SS in a POW camp. She has never complained about my Panzers or FWs-although she has a right to. She looks at it as history. Now if I put on a red armband...

I have to admit there are times I've thought about it and felt "funny" about it too.

I'm not sure how to best put it, but I personally think part of it comes down to having a genuine respect for what it is you're modeling. Not only the machinery, but also that period of history and the events which occured.

Besides models, what about the board games, computer games, books, television series and movies?

WARNING!

Every year, some group jumps on a topic so they can stir up support for their cause. Many years ago, D&D was the target because it was sacrilidge. Models have often been the target, and recently, video games and movies have become the center of attention for supposedly causing the increase in violence. Whne are people going to start accepting personal responsibility for their own actions? If we couldn't build a particular model subject because it had killed someone, there would be nothing left to build. Not just militarily, but autos, ships, even horse and buggy would be banned. If folks want to get all up in arms because I've watched the Crow a few many times or have Natural Born Killers practically memorized, so be it. Don't come over to my house to watch movies. I don't mind being criticized for some of my likes and dislikes, but I'm not going to let it run my life. If I want to build a Me-262 shooting down a P-51, that's my perogative. If I want to play EAW in a Bf-109 and shoot down B-17's, who really cares? Not me. Besides, if we didn't have our hobbies, what would the National Enquirer write about? I'll step down, now.

demono69

i wonder if the PC lot will start burning books next

I thought they already had..

Taking other peoples feelings and beliefs into account is one thing, but this PC stuff can go waaay to far. I personally can't think of anything as benign than modelling.. Isn't building whatever you want also part of freedom of speach? The strange thing is that the PC croud say you have freedom of speach, but just don't say this that or the next.

Everyone is different, so I'm not even going to bother try to please them all. Don't have the time, certainly don't have the energy. I'll just use common sense on saying/doing what at the right time.. Unlike my brother, who lands himself in it soooo many times.

I personally see no problems with using symbols from an "evil empire". They are just that symbols. If they pass a law here in the U.S. banning symbols from Axis powers, wouldn't that be censorship and anti-free thought? Would we still be allowed to put the honamura (however that word is spelled!!) on our Japanese planes? I used to work at a museum in California, we received a MiG-21F (actually a S-107) There was so much debate about the markings we were going to put on it. I suggested North Viet-Namese and every one thought I was insane because the didn't want to offend anyone, namely our vets and the Viet-Namese people living in the state!! When I was last out there they had done it in Polish markings.

There is really only one way to look at this issue - the items we model are machines. Nothing more.
There can be nothing inherently evil or wrong with modelling a piece of machinery that may have been used in a conflict that is current or historical.
The fact that there were many evil deeds done by those in charge of the army or airforce that used these machines really means nothing to us today.
There are many countries (especially in Europe) where it is illegal to display the swastika in any form - understandably this emblem can (and does) offend.
But my concscience is clear when I make a model of a Bf109 or the B-29 Enola Gay.
It's only a model of a machine that had a place in history.
We must learn from the mistakes of history. Hate and fear are the cause of too many atrocities. Love and understanding make peace break out all over.
There's a message there.................
Cheers
LeeTree

You know, I started typing a rant about closing museums next, but I am getting tired of all this, and others have echoed most of my comments anyway, so I'll just close with saying that I have never run into that situation and model for your self, not others.
Bruce

Yup, it's the fascination with the machinery that drives modellers to built those models not the ideology associated with those machineries.

If you haven't already read it (or recently), here's a related thread you might find interesting. I think frostygirl made an excellent point (page 2).

Too disturbing to build?

I have built ww2 german models and have also participated in ww2 living history events and have had to defend myself against people who accuse me of being a Nazi. After I tell them my reasons (it's a hobby and I don't want to be ignorant of historical events), I then ask them why they don't complain about models with Soviet markings on them. This usually shuts them up and the slouch away. That is usally all I need to know about that person and their leanings.