The moral high ground

It's history and we all build a piece of it, whether German, Japanese, Italian, etc. We build because we enjoy it and want to learn from it. As the saying goes...

"Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it."

Where I live (San Francisco), local pundits had misgivings about the Blue Angels' annual air show. Their blood curdled at the sights and sounds of these fabulous machines, which they viewed as symbols of a violent, militaristic culture. With such doltish citizens around me, it's no wonder that I'm cautious about reading my military aviation books while riding the subway to work.

As for modeling tanks and airplanes used by our former adversaries, I have mixed feelings. I gaze at my Me262 and wonder if my interest in the technology is separable from the martial hubris that accompanies such effective weaponry. Does modeling ANY military subject brand me as a war-mongering maniac? I think not, but I imagine the liberal, "PC" denizens in my part of the world would disagree.

Few people have seen my military models, but they've all admired my modest handiwork. I just have to remember that if my Jewish pals ever visit, I'd better put the 262 in a drawer - I don't think any explaining would enable them to overcome their visceral reactions to the swastika. Hmm, should I also hide my U-boat and my platoon of German armor?

Breezely1,
I helped design Trident subs many years ago, and ironically I have an aunt who's a nun.
She once made a comment to me about "death machines", but I pointed out to her that no Trident submarine had ever fired a shot in anger, and that if they achieved their true purpose (which was/is deterrence), then they never would.

That was the last time she ever brought up the subject.

Thanks Paul. You no doubt remember the good old days of the anti-nuclear protestors, the "peaceful" nuns creeping in in the middle of the night with thier sledgehammers and cows blood and my favorite the infiltrator that got hold of the company van during a launching ceremony and repeatedly rammed it into a Trident rudder until he was subdued. So much has changed now.

Point well taken. It seems that dialogue is well forgoten "thing" of these reactionaries.
"My view only" based on no argument is the main cause of the suffering.

Morals are interpretive and subject to change with societal and individual needs and desires.

Everyday our personal liberties and rights are eroded by well wishers and self proclaimed do-gooders and occupants of the so called moral highground. He who is in control determines what is good or bad for them and unfortunately for all.

A symbol is not evil, but the ideology and actions behind the symbol are.
No flag ever killed a person, nor demanded its will upon others.

Mike

THERE IS NOTHING MORALLY WRONG WITH BUILDING A MODEL.
If some PCAH is moaning about it they need to wind there neck in and get themselves a hobby.

Nuff said.

Darren.

No one's ever gotten mad about my models, and most of them are redone to look as if they were serving with the Confederate Army.
Political Correctness is for wimps and communists.
I'll believe what I believe, say what I say, and live how I live 'till the day I die. I'm the one who's responsible for my life, and if that offends another, they didn't have to listen to me.

Sorry to hear that the PC crowd is getting you down, just remember to fight them back by building 100 luftwaffe models, and mailing them to 'em!

MAKE MODELS FOR FREEDOM!

I suppose it all comes down to attitudes and time frames really. Attitude, whatever the time frame is about 10% what happens around you and 90% what you decide to do about it.

The nun saw something she didn't like and decided to make issue of it, conveniencing herself by ignoring the blood soaked history of her own organization who's tyranical, ironfisted reign over medieval Europe lasted a good deal longer and took many more lives than Hitler did in less than a decade in the mid 20th century.

Her attitude is obviously that of the hypocrite, no better than a Holocaust denier when it comes to the darker chapters of her own group's history.

Go far enough back in history and you realize NOBODY is innocent, we've all done things we'd rather forget, such is humanity.

Machines are machines, its what the human mind does with them thats the problem sometimes. Machines have no mind, no will and no malice. All such things are human vices. The political correctness folks seem to have trouble coming to grips with this fact that we aren't a perfect beast as species go, only an idiot would claim we were perfect.

To those who build models of the "enemy's" hardware (whoever the "enemy" was at the time) keep on doing it, its history preserved.

For the political correctos out there, dust off a copy of George Orwell's "1984" You could also rent the film addaptation that starred Wiliam Hurt, it follows the book well and you get the visuals if reading isn't your thing (or if you burned your copy of it already). Either way, what happens in that story is exactly what you get when political correctness, censorship and revisionist history get free reign. How would you like life so censored that the dictionary has been pared down to six words that you can legally make conversations with and you get nasty punishments for speaking outside those six words? Yep, it happened in that book.

If it were me, I'd remind that nun of her own group's darker history and tell her to go play "Big Brother" with someone else!

QUOTE: Originally posted by Jugman Where I live (San Francisco), local pundits had misgivings about the Blue Angels' annual air show. Their blood curdled at the sights and sounds of these fabulous machines, which they viewed as symbols of a violent, militaristic culture. With such doltish citizens around me, it's no wonder that I'm cautious about reading my military aviation books while riding the subway to work.

Really? The Blue Angels? I think sometimes people take for granted what it is which ensures they have the right to the freedoms they enjoy.

QUOTE: Originally posted by upnorth If it were me, I'd remind that nun of her own group's darker history and tell her to go play "Big Brother" with someone else!

The Inquisition?

I forget the literal quote, but there is a saying that history is written by the victorious. I know I'm not close on the quote, but the point is that a lot of history has been recorded through the perspective of the winning side.

Looking back at WWII, everyone tends to focus on the Holocaust, the Battle of Britain (attacks against British civilians), the Japanese in Manchuria, the treatment of prisoners, etc. The Allies also did some things which weren't exactly stellar moments in human history: the relentless bombing campaigns against German cities such as Hamburg, Dresden, and others; the dropping of the atomic bombs; relocation of Japanese-Americans to camps.

So do the people who have issues with models of German equipment also feel the same about models of the American and British bombers used against Germany or a model of the Enola Gay?

I can respect someone if they are against modeling any military equipment. But to pick and choose is being hypocritical.

There's an interesting page listing little known incidents in WWII. I believe their statement of dedication sums it up best.

QUOTE: Massacres of the Second World War http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/massacres.html This page is dedicated to all those who lost their lives through man's inhumanity to man which knows no bounds of race, creed, or time. Any war must be categorized as an atrocity but the war that Hitler started brought a scale of atrocity never previously known. The statistics of World War 11 clearly qualify it, by far, as the most heinous atrocity in all recorded history.

I am coming to this thread rather late, and actually echo many of the sentiments already expressed. I have actually been accused of being a "war-monger" (now that really dates me!) by some of my peers. Though this occurred a long time ago, I still think upon it from time to time. I do not deny that I build models, some of which may not be "PC". I do it for myself, to give shape to what I've read about (I am an amateur historian).
I understand some people will associate the crooked cross on my ME109FW190JU88 (etc.) will a very evil regime and they are correct, it was a VERY evil regime...so do we ignore that it happened? Does building a B-29 correct this? We are not glorifying Nazi Germany, its acts, or its leadership...we are just building a model.

Our Blessed Lord said to see to the beam in our own eye before we see to the speck in our brother's. A lot of people suffering from beam-in-the-eye syndrome like to throw stones. (anymore cliche's anyone?LOL) If we remind the human race that its history consists of sinners, perhaps we are seeing to the communal beam. If we get up tight about what someone is choosing for a model subject, we've got problems and not building models will not solve them. I see genius in the design and power of a machine whether the genius was American, German, Japanese, Soviet etc. etc. Models give credit to that genius. The rest is a coat of paint and if I put stars on a Zero or american flags on the Bismarck, what does that accomplish except denial of the truth. That is where conflict comes from. When people refuse to talk about something, it gets expressed in other ways and sometimes not good ways. And we'll build models from that war on into eternity. Lets just relax and worry if our panel lines are in the right place and not our hearts. That is between each person and his God. This is for fun, at least for me it is.

QUOTE: Originally posted by David Voss QUOTE: Originally posted by upnorth If it were me, I'd remind that nun of her own group's darker history and tell her to go play "Big Brother" with someone else! The Inquisition?

Speaking of being careful about sensitive issues....
Let's remember what this forum is for.

Hi all,

I've read this whole thread, and it's interesting the variety of replies we've gotten. I've a couple of points to make:

1) A true liberal would welcome the open exchange of ideas, and fiercely protect the rights of those who disagree with him. Conversely, conservatives are more likely to want to muzzle dissenting opinion. My point? Only that political correctness is something that cuts across political ideologies. Pennsylvania had a Republican administration and legislature under Tom Ridge for nearly eight years -- and that's when political correctness was so thoroughly pushed in state government. FWIW, I'm a liberal, but I believe strongly in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights (including the 2nd Amendment if you must know).

2) A fair number of Germans tried to kill my one grandfather, and a fair number of Japanese tried to kill the other. Thankfully, both groups failed. I've studied the German language and visited there twice. I study a Japanese martial art and would love to visit there. I admire a lot about each culture, but I absolutely abhor the things that the Germans and Japanese did during World War II. For that reason, I'm not too keen on building models of German or Japanese WWII military equipment.

3) On the other hand, every time I look at a B-17, B-24, or B-29, I think about firebombing Dresden, or Japanese cities (most of which were highly inflammable!). I'm not really able to separate the "neat" machine from the horrible history.

4) And yet, I study military history, build models, play war games and combat flight simulators. I've come to view war as a kind of crucible for nations and individuals. Wartime brings out the absolute worst of human nature, and also shows its most beautiful qualities. I strongly believe we should celebrate the wonderful qualities of human nature that emerge during war time; just as I strongly believe we should never minimize the horrible things that have happened.

Sometimes both things can happen at once. That B-17 model can be a reminder of the horrible fire bombings, as well as the courage of the pilots and crews that fought overwhelming odds to carry out their missions.

Regards,

-Drew

We shouldn't confuse political correctness with voiced opinion. Political Correctness is an overused term and becomes a shield for a societies inability to either communicate effectively or deal with problems. It was a term coined by political spin doctors to help describe platforms or positions that would garner them votes with a particular group. It was marketing pure and simple. You guys running for office? Are your models? Anyone ever say you couldn't build a model, or did they just argue with you over your selection of subject matter. Do you really care...?
One side complains that it is PC to ignore war and not think of history, thats just ignorance and that persons inability to face reality or be reminded of it, when if one was to be Politicaly Correct, we would not question authority, brand anyone who questions the current administrations actions as unpatriotic (a tactic and a recurring ideology and rhetoric used by Caesar, Napoleon, Goering, Stalin, McCarthy, Hussein and now Rumsfield, Ashcroft and Bush. Its correct because that is what our politicians are working with and on), let the rich avoid taxes, tax the middle class and turn the poor into a labor caste. Lower drinking water standards, up the death penalty, rape our own natural resources and everyone elses, put in place an american form of government and a bible in every household. Dictate what we can read or not read, use our own bodies and what we can watch or do. Cater to big corporations and screw the little guy. While I'm sure all of these have their positive attributes that is what politcal correctness means to me.

Most of you guys are right, we are becoming a nation of paper tigers. Catering to whomever whines the loudest. Be it from the top or down low.

Model contests or shows have never really struck me as a target of opportunity for peace marches, theological debates or green peace to hang out and protest at. And unless you've turned your house into a model museum open to the public, does it really matter what anyone says? Based on the rhetoric I've seen regarding rivet counters most of the folks on the forum don't handle criticism well from a know it all. I can't begin to fathom how they let criticism from someone that knows less about history or the whys and wheres of modelbuilding get to them.
It almost seems that there is an knee jerk reaction equal to the the action that caused it.

Mike

My father did a tour over Germany in a Halifax, my father in law bounced around the Atlantic in a corvette, my grandfather got shot at in the trenches.
I thank God that I and my sons have not had to go to war because of the sacrifices they have made.
I hope I am big enough to see both the inhumanity that went on throughout the war on both sides, as well as the brotherhood and sacrifice, witness the conventions (sadly fewer now) where old foes shake hands and have a drink together. I have been privileged to be at some of these and it is a real eye opener. Will I understand what they went through? Never, because I wasn't there, but I can commemorate them through model building. I applaud those with the courage to do some of the dioramas talked about in this forum, and I shall proudly wear my poppy at the services on the 11th.
Bruce

its a kind of the sad nature of human beings that it needed a war to rapidly develop the jet engine, the rocket, nuclear power, computers etc. All the money and brains were there in the first place.......

Build what you want guys! Some people will always be hung up on the symbols of (for example) Nazi Germany... I have an SS helmet in my collection, that doesn't make me a Nazi!

I think a true compliment would be a WWII vet coming up and saying, "Looks just like what I shot down!" .... before it was shot, one would hope!

Speaking of not liking Nazi models, some folks don't like allied vehicles either, not to mention service men and women... go figure.

Ron.

What other people think about us is none of our business!
I'll leave it at that.
Dai

Good one Dai.
Mike

I have just read a book about the battle between Bomber Command and the Nachtjagd, called The Other Battle, can't remember the author though.

In the book is an account of a night fighter crew creeping up on an unsuspecting Lancaster ready to open fire with their Schrage Musik Kanone. The pilot explains to his new Funker what he is doing, but in the course of the conversation starts to wonder about the men on board the Lancaster, who thay are what they are like, are they married, do they have kids, at which point the pilot reflects upon his own daughter at home. The crew decide that they don't what to shoot this aircraft and her crew down, despite being positioned to do so for at least 10 minutes and turn for home, letting the Lancaster crew carry on home.

I think this just goes to illustrate that even in the worst possible situations man's humanity to his fellow man can shine through regardless of race or creed.

You may not be able to separate the model from the state sponsored murder, but also you cannot overlook the humanity of man in any conflict.

Just remember:
Glue + Model = FUN!

A lot of people died in the quest for beer, too!

QUOTE: Originally posted by berny13 Build to satisfy yourself and not someone else. You did not write or make history, you are only displaying it. To ignore that part of history, is to pretend it did not happen. If you build a German WW ll aircraft, with kill markings on it, and someone questions your patriotism because of it, they do not understand history. A lot of bad things have happened through history. To ignore or pretend they didn't happen is like sticking your head into the sand. You have not accomplished or changed anything. You just look foolish. As for building weapons as a living, some worked as a deterent to prevent more powerful weapons from being used. When I came back from South East Asia after spending four years there, a war protestor looked at the awards on my uniform and asked. "Which one of those is for killing small children"? I just pointed to one and said "This one" and walked off. He just stood there speachless because that wasn't what he was expecting.

Berny,

Good answer to the protestor. I have been questioned about loyalty because I really like to read about and collect WWII pieces, no matter which side used them. I also am always being verbally sparred with because I also collect military weapons, but I do not hunt. My guns are all in working order and I make sure that I try to shoot them as often as I can. I had a "youngster" (I am only 35) ask me what I hunted with the AK-47 that I own (something that I get tired of hearing) and I told the person..."People!" End of questioning and strange looks as they walked away. It was funny and the feeling is good when you stop them dead in their tracks!

Jerry

I'm also stepping into this thread late...so I'll share a few stories with you...

I run an air museum, and at a recent airshow, we had one of our aircraft on display, and as I climbed from the cockpit, I was approached by a sign wielding hippie (last time I saw one of those was in the 70s) who shoves the sign in my face and says, "Is that airplane a bomber?" I replied it was, and he yells at me, "Bombs kill people!" to which I replied, 'Yes, if used effectively on a target' and continued walking...he couldn't respond.

In the museum just last week, we had a group of Japanese tourists, and one of them mentioned to one of my staff that the Japanese swords in the display cases should be returned to Japan. My reply was, 'Give me back the USS Arizona, and you can have the swords back".

In my second year as Director, we received a large model of the Hindenburg, complete with red and white tail markings. A mother from a Jewish school group touring the facility tore into me, calling me all sorts of names...before I had a chance to respond, the Rabbi in charge of the group informed her that unless we understand our history, and the mistakes we've made as humans, we're destined to repeat it, and apologized to me...he then said something nasty to her in Yiddish, because she didn't say another word for the remainder of the tour...

The world is full of idiots, bigots, and those we shall call 'less informed'. I do WW2 reenacting, on the US side. My grandfathers and great uncles fought in the Pacific, two as mud Marines on Guadalcanal, Tarawa, Siapan, Iwo, and Okinawa. The other, in the Navy, had 2 ships shot out from under him at Savo (Cushing and then Atlanta as a salvage crew), and damn near another one later in the war (Franklin). I have another uncle who went MIA in a Hellcat from a CVL.

I remember meeting my father at the airport when he came home (USAF, 14TRW flying RF-4Cs) and people spit on him (and me as a 7 year old). All he did was fly photo-recon (3 tours).

Political correctness is BS...it's a way of placating someone, or a group of someones, above and beyond what has come to be accepted as socially tolerable. It placates to avoid offending everyone, but it is often taken to the level that it actually offends everyone. It becomes patronizing.

The world is not made up of people wearing fuzzy bunny slippers. Face it, deal with it. There's alot of people out there who'd rather see you dead, fortunately for us, they're not the majority.

Just my opinion, written without remorse. How's that for political correctness?? :-)

Jeff Herne
Modelwarships.com

Good post Jeff.

And in recognition of running an air museum, I hereby nominate you for the "Luckiest S-O-B on the Board" award!

When stationed in Europe in the mid 70's, I had a chance to go to a German air base at Erding. I had to go see the German Commander and noticed several WW ll pictures of German aircraft on his wall. I asked if he had flown during the war? At first he did not say anything untill I told him I was a WW ll history buff.

Yes, he flew the FW-190 in the war. As he stated, he was flying to defend his country against the daily attack of bombers. Yes, he did shoot down many B-17's and P-51's in doing so.

By listening to him talk, I became aware that he was not the cold blooded killer as many think. He was protecting his home land. He did not make political decisions. He was only a German pilot flying against an enemy destroying his country. The Americans and British were his enemies at the time.

When it comes down to it, wasn't American, British, Canadian, German, Japanise Russian and many other young men and women only doing what they had to? The common people doing the dirty work for the leaders.

When we build models, we are paying tribute to them, and not to their government or their governments beliefs.

Excellent Posts Jeff and Berny!

Jeff,

As someone who has had the "Inquisition" thrown at him more times than he can count, thank you for your post.God Bless