The moral high ground

I don't have the slightest qualm about building German or Japanese models (although I must admit as an ex-infantryman with the 25th Division in WW II in the Philippines, I still won't buy a Japanese car...something about the name Mitsubishi that still bothers me!) as they are just war machines and some very good ones at that. In addition to many US and allied aircraft and vehicles I have made, I also just finished the beautiful Tamiya Bismarck 350 scale battleship...complete with the two Nazi insignia on the deck...This is history, NOT that damned "politically correct" nonsense! I still have an unbuilt Heinkel 111 bomber to build and am very upset that the decals do NOT include a swastika which appeared on EVERY German WW II aircraft on the rudder. Grrrr.rrr! Don't worry about the "ebemy aircraft, my friends. Make your models as accurate as you can and le

Very interesting thread. While it is centered on military subjects and 'evil' markings, etc. I'm here to tell you you're not alone as victims of PC. Something you military modelers may not be aware of - It is now impossible to buy a kit of a race car whose teams have alcohol or tobbacco sponsors. The reason? Someone decided that since this is a kid's hobby (I know, bear with me.) impressionable children building a kit with those markings might get the idea it's OK to drink or smoke. So the manufacturers phased them out. (Anyone want to guess how many kids have to reach past Dad's six-pack for a soda?) Remember Joe Camel? He got axed because he was a "cartoon character enticing kids to smoke". How 'bout the gay Teletubbie? Mighty Mouse snorting cocaine? It seems more and more EVERYTHING offends someone, and since they are on their moral high ground they will do their best to 'protect' the rest of us.

I think we all ( young and old)( American and Not) have experienced negative responses to the modeling we do. Both Political, and not.
I.E. I like Fords.. Can't understand why you modeled a Chevy... But some people would say "Is that a Republican driving that Ford or did you model a Democrate because Republicans don't drive Fords..."That don't look like FS 14444 ????? Wrong color, wrong wheels, wrong doorlatch....
ViVe La Difference..The fact is Nazi and Japanese military machines leave a bad taste in the mouth of most people ( American and Not ) That are in the 50 year old plus age group. Yes I'm in that group thank you.... This is understandable after all it was their families that were ravaged by the military of the Axis countries.. Yes many innocent AXIS people were killed by Allied weapons of destruction but the bottom line to many of these people is we did not start it.. War sucks.. I do know this. I have BTDT.. Vietnam 71..enough said. I know many model building Plastichallics like me. They are for the most part intellegent andfrustrated "Walter Mitteys" like I am..
We love our hobby for a million different reasons. Now if we allow the negative banter of uninformed or just angry at anything people affect our hobby then it is no longer a hobby.. I build models to pass time and I really can't afford the real item.. I love history and the fine company and conversation of "FELLOW MODLERS" Let's leave the politics to Movie Stars and not ruin our past time worrying about the PC Crowd My biggest worry is how to rapair super glue mistakes....As for the Nun well I'm a Catholic and her issues are better not discussed in this forum but I do apoligise for the rest of us not PC Catholics. Ummm now I think I can reach that part from my soap box.. No I'll have to get down now..
Smile
Butch

FWIW - I think the fact that, through our hobby, many of us modellers have read around and studied the history of the Second World War probably gives us a better appreciation of the conflict from both sides than many of the so-called Poltically Correct brigade. Yes, the Nazis were evil but Germany was supposedly a civilised country (like other European countries or the US). We need to understand why Nazism flourished there because only by understanding history can we ever hope to prevent it repeating itself (look at the ethnic cleansing in the Balkans for evidence that there are still lessons to be learned).

I have just read a book called "Telling Lies About Hitler" which deals with a libel case brought in the UK in 2000 by a "historian" called David Irving who was accused of being a Holocaust denier. The book was written by the guy who was employed to uncover examples where Irving had fabricated evidence to downplay the Holocaust and Hitler's part in formation of the Final Solution. Fortunately Irving lost but it was clear from this book that there are people out there who have their own wicked agendas as far as this era of history is concerned.

We have to face up to the past to understand and accept it. If there are people out there who would prefer to ignore historical fact when it upsets them, then that may open the door for those who would actively deny or distort historical fact.

What I would say as a counterbalance is that we should appreciate that people may have issues with the swastika not for politically-correct reasons but for personal reasons.

QUOTE: Originally posted by fuzzy B-36, Well said ! Are your trains HO scale? Fuzzy

Yep, HO, German and American.

Well, as perhaps the originator of this discussion in the armor forum I’m going to chime in late here because I just found this thread.

First, I was pleased to see what I think are some excellent responses to this topic. Second, I want to reiterate what I said in the armor forum that started this somewhat heated discussion. I do not disapprove of anyone modeling SS armor, or putting the swastika decal on their model of an Me 109. But I try to stay away from SS topics myself. I admire the technological advances that the Germans made during the war, but I see no reason that I can’t model these subjects without representing SS units.

Why do I stay away from certain subjects?? Well like I said before; for lack of better wording, I just feel kina funny. Perhaps this is because I would not want anyone to think that I, in any way support the Nazi party, or what the SS did. Do I care what other people think? No, but I am also very opinionated and I would not want anyone to get the wrong impression for even a second about this topic.

I realize that the side that you are going to be on during a war is predominately determined by either where you were born, or what religion you were born into. However, the SS was the personal guard of the Nazi party and not a part of the army. While I cannot criticize what the members of the SS did because I have no idea what I may have done in their situation, I do not support their actions in any way whatsoever. Yes, the allies participated in some morally questionable actions as well. I do not support these actions either. While again, I cannot criticize these actions, I find myself ashamed as an American that we incarcerated Japanese-Americans during WWII and I find no pride in the fact that the US is the only country in the world that has dropped a thermo-nuclear weapon on another nation in aggression.

As the source of this debate, some may have formed some opinions about me and questioned my “liberal” beliefs. I was going to put a response to this in the post, but decided to update my profile instead.

Oh, and in response to the original subject, yes. After looking over my collection of mainly German armor for the first time, my current girlfriend asked me if I was in any way a Nazi. No, I’m not.

edog

B-36,
Well said ! Are your trains HO scale?
Fuzzy

As a modelrailroader also, I've participated in many shopping mall shows, and because I collect MARKLIN trains as well as American, some of the German engines that I displayed had a Nazi Swastika on the side, very ,very small but still there. I never thought twice about it but at one show this little old lady in her 80's made a very big deal out of it. Now she wore glasses and really had to strain to see anything on the side of this loco, but it bothered her so much and we were in a public forum, that I removed it and then replaced it after she left. I guess if the New York Central had been owned by German/Americans, she would have made a big deal out of that too. My point is this, it doesn't matter what other people think of your hobby, it's yours, not theirs, so don't let it bother you. You model what you want, when you want, thats what this great country of OURS is all about. So screwwwwwww, political correctness. I've told many a would be critic where they could shove it and at 58 years of age I don't plan on stopping now. Modelling as with Modelrailroading is a fun hobby, don't ever let anyone take that fun away from you.

Modelling is just that ( Building models) It does not matter what your subject matter is. I have been faced by people who have questioned my motives in modelling military subjects, my standard reply to them "I model for the enjoyment of it and if you don't like it who cares."

Modelling is about enjoyment and relaxation so pick your subjects on what you enjoy and forget the PC lobby.

I often thought what someone might think by me building a Tiger Tank or the Bismark. I am a God fearing Christian and thought about it. The answer to me is that these machines are technological wonders created by very ingenious designers. We do not build them to show what country is the master race. Now, if someone or someone did a diaroma of a concentration camp or even killings at Ausrelitz then I would have too ask why. A lot of modern item all of us enjoy today came from the war machine over the ages. What does that say about us. Models are just that, a piece of history frozen in time.

Jeff,

As someone who has had the "Inquisition" thrown at him more times than he can count, thank you for your post.God Bless

Excellent Posts Jeff and Berny!

When stationed in Europe in the mid 70's, I had a chance to go to a German air base at Erding. I had to go see the German Commander and noticed several WW ll pictures of German aircraft on his wall. I asked if he had flown during the war? At first he did not say anything untill I told him I was a WW ll history buff.

Yes, he flew the FW-190 in the war. As he stated, he was flying to defend his country against the daily attack of bombers. Yes, he did shoot down many B-17's and P-51's in doing so.

By listening to him talk, I became aware that he was not the cold blooded killer as many think. He was protecting his home land. He did not make political decisions. He was only a German pilot flying against an enemy destroying his country. The Americans and British were his enemies at the time.

When it comes down to it, wasn't American, British, Canadian, German, Japanise Russian and many other young men and women only doing what they had to? The common people doing the dirty work for the leaders.

When we build models, we are paying tribute to them, and not to their government or their governments beliefs.

Good post Jeff.

And in recognition of running an air museum, I hereby nominate you for the "Luckiest S-O-B on the Board" award!

I'm also stepping into this thread late...so I'll share a few stories with you...

I run an air museum, and at a recent airshow, we had one of our aircraft on display, and as I climbed from the cockpit, I was approached by a sign wielding hippie (last time I saw one of those was in the 70s) who shoves the sign in my face and says, "Is that airplane a bomber?" I replied it was, and he yells at me, "Bombs kill people!" to which I replied, 'Yes, if used effectively on a target' and continued walking...he couldn't respond.

In the museum just last week, we had a group of Japanese tourists, and one of them mentioned to one of my staff that the Japanese swords in the display cases should be returned to Japan. My reply was, 'Give me back the USS Arizona, and you can have the swords back".

In my second year as Director, we received a large model of the Hindenburg, complete with red and white tail markings. A mother from a Jewish school group touring the facility tore into me, calling me all sorts of names...before I had a chance to respond, the Rabbi in charge of the group informed her that unless we understand our history, and the mistakes we've made as humans, we're destined to repeat it, and apologized to me...he then said something nasty to her in Yiddish, because she didn't say another word for the remainder of the tour...

The world is full of idiots, bigots, and those we shall call 'less informed'. I do WW2 reenacting, on the US side. My grandfathers and great uncles fought in the Pacific, two as mud Marines on Guadalcanal, Tarawa, Siapan, Iwo, and Okinawa. The other, in the Navy, had 2 ships shot out from under him at Savo (Cushing and then Atlanta as a salvage crew), and damn near another one later in the war (Franklin). I have another uncle who went MIA in a Hellcat from a CVL.

I remember meeting my father at the airport when he came home (USAF, 14TRW flying RF-4Cs) and people spit on him (and me as a 7 year old). All he did was fly photo-recon (3 tours).

Political correctness is BS...it's a way of placating someone, or a group of someones, above and beyond what has come to be accepted as socially tolerable. It placates to avoid offending everyone, but it is often taken to the level that it actually offends everyone. It becomes patronizing.

The world is not made up of people wearing fuzzy bunny slippers. Face it, deal with it. There's alot of people out there who'd rather see you dead, fortunately for us, they're not the majority.

Just my opinion, written without remorse. How's that for political correctness?? :-)

Jeff Herne
Modelwarships.com

QUOTE: Originally posted by berny13 Build to satisfy yourself and not someone else. You did not write or make history, you are only displaying it. To ignore that part of history, is to pretend it did not happen. If you build a German WW ll aircraft, with kill markings on it, and someone questions your patriotism because of it, they do not understand history. A lot of bad things have happened through history. To ignore or pretend they didn't happen is like sticking your head into the sand. You have not accomplished or changed anything. You just look foolish. As for building weapons as a living, some worked as a deterent to prevent more powerful weapons from being used. When I came back from South East Asia after spending four years there, a war protestor looked at the awards on my uniform and asked. "Which one of those is for killing small children"? I just pointed to one and said "This one" and walked off. He just stood there speachless because that wasn't what he was expecting.

Berny,

Good answer to the protestor. I have been questioned about loyalty because I really like to read about and collect WWII pieces, no matter which side used them. I also am always being verbally sparred with because I also collect military weapons, but I do not hunt. My guns are all in working order and I make sure that I try to shoot them as often as I can. I had a "youngster" (I am only 35) ask me what I hunted with the AK-47 that I own (something that I get tired of hearing) and I told the person..."People!" End of questioning and strange looks as they walked away. It was funny and the feeling is good when you stop them dead in their tracks!

Jerry

Just remember:
Glue + Model = FUN!

A lot of people died in the quest for beer, too!

I have just read a book about the battle between Bomber Command and the Nachtjagd, called The Other Battle, can't remember the author though.

In the book is an account of a night fighter crew creeping up on an unsuspecting Lancaster ready to open fire with their Schrage Musik Kanone. The pilot explains to his new Funker what he is doing, but in the course of the conversation starts to wonder about the men on board the Lancaster, who thay are what they are like, are they married, do they have kids, at which point the pilot reflects upon his own daughter at home. The crew decide that they don't what to shoot this aircraft and her crew down, despite being positioned to do so for at least 10 minutes and turn for home, letting the Lancaster crew carry on home.

I think this just goes to illustrate that even in the worst possible situations man's humanity to his fellow man can shine through regardless of race or creed.

You may not be able to separate the model from the state sponsored murder, but also you cannot overlook the humanity of man in any conflict.

Good one Dai.
Mike

What other people think about us is none of our business!
I'll leave it at that.
Dai

Build what you want guys! Some people will always be hung up on the symbols of (for example) Nazi Germany... I have an SS helmet in my collection, that doesn't make me a Nazi!

I think a true compliment would be a WWII vet coming up and saying, "Looks just like what I shot down!" .... before it was shot, one would hope!

Speaking of not liking Nazi models, some folks don't like allied vehicles either, not to mention service men and women... go figure.

Ron.

its a kind of the sad nature of human beings that it needed a war to rapidly develop the jet engine, the rocket, nuclear power, computers etc. All the money and brains were there in the first place.......

My father did a tour over Germany in a Halifax, my father in law bounced around the Atlantic in a corvette, my grandfather got shot at in the trenches.
I thank God that I and my sons have not had to go to war because of the sacrifices they have made.
I hope I am big enough to see both the inhumanity that went on throughout the war on both sides, as well as the brotherhood and sacrifice, witness the conventions (sadly fewer now) where old foes shake hands and have a drink together. I have been privileged to be at some of these and it is a real eye opener. Will I understand what they went through? Never, because I wasn't there, but I can commemorate them through model building. I applaud those with the courage to do some of the dioramas talked about in this forum, and I shall proudly wear my poppy at the services on the 11th.
Bruce

We shouldn't confuse political correctness with voiced opinion. Political Correctness is an overused term and becomes a shield for a societies inability to either communicate effectively or deal with problems. It was a term coined by political spin doctors to help describe platforms or positions that would garner them votes with a particular group. It was marketing pure and simple. You guys running for office? Are your models? Anyone ever say you couldn't build a model, or did they just argue with you over your selection of subject matter. Do you really care...?
One side complains that it is PC to ignore war and not think of history, thats just ignorance and that persons inability to face reality or be reminded of it, when if one was to be Politicaly Correct, we would not question authority, brand anyone who questions the current administrations actions as unpatriotic (a tactic and a recurring ideology and rhetoric used by Caesar, Napoleon, Goering, Stalin, McCarthy, Hussein and now Rumsfield, Ashcroft and Bush. Its correct because that is what our politicians are working with and on), let the rich avoid taxes, tax the middle class and turn the poor into a labor caste. Lower drinking water standards, up the death penalty, rape our own natural resources and everyone elses, put in place an american form of government and a bible in every household. Dictate what we can read or not read, use our own bodies and what we can watch or do. Cater to big corporations and screw the little guy. While I'm sure all of these have their positive attributes that is what politcal correctness means to me.

Most of you guys are right, we are becoming a nation of paper tigers. Catering to whomever whines the loudest. Be it from the top or down low.

Model contests or shows have never really struck me as a target of opportunity for peace marches, theological debates or green peace to hang out and protest at. And unless you've turned your house into a model museum open to the public, does it really matter what anyone says? Based on the rhetoric I've seen regarding rivet counters most of the folks on the forum don't handle criticism well from a know it all. I can't begin to fathom how they let criticism from someone that knows less about history or the whys and wheres of modelbuilding get to them.
It almost seems that there is an knee jerk reaction equal to the the action that caused it.

Mike

Hi all,

I've read this whole thread, and it's interesting the variety of replies we've gotten. I've a couple of points to make:

1) A true liberal would welcome the open exchange of ideas, and fiercely protect the rights of those who disagree with him. Conversely, conservatives are more likely to want to muzzle dissenting opinion. My point? Only that political correctness is something that cuts across political ideologies. Pennsylvania had a Republican administration and legislature under Tom Ridge for nearly eight years -- and that's when political correctness was so thoroughly pushed in state government. FWIW, I'm a liberal, but I believe strongly in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights (including the 2nd Amendment if you must know).

2) A fair number of Germans tried to kill my one grandfather, and a fair number of Japanese tried to kill the other. Thankfully, both groups failed. I've studied the German language and visited there twice. I study a Japanese martial art and would love to visit there. I admire a lot about each culture, but I absolutely abhor the things that the Germans and Japanese did during World War II. For that reason, I'm not too keen on building models of German or Japanese WWII military equipment.

3) On the other hand, every time I look at a B-17, B-24, or B-29, I think about firebombing Dresden, or Japanese cities (most of which were highly inflammable!). I'm not really able to separate the "neat" machine from the horrible history.

4) And yet, I study military history, build models, play war games and combat flight simulators. I've come to view war as a kind of crucible for nations and individuals. Wartime brings out the absolute worst of human nature, and also shows its most beautiful qualities. I strongly believe we should celebrate the wonderful qualities of human nature that emerge during war time; just as I strongly believe we should never minimize the horrible things that have happened.

Sometimes both things can happen at once. That B-17 model can be a reminder of the horrible fire bombings, as well as the courage of the pilots and crews that fought overwhelming odds to carry out their missions.

Regards,

-Drew

QUOTE: Originally posted by David Voss QUOTE: Originally posted by upnorth If it were me, I'd remind that nun of her own group's darker history and tell her to go play "Big Brother" with someone else! The Inquisition?

Speaking of being careful about sensitive issues....
Let's remember what this forum is for.

Our Blessed Lord said to see to the beam in our own eye before we see to the speck in our brother's. A lot of people suffering from beam-in-the-eye syndrome like to throw stones. (anymore cliche's anyone?LOL) If we remind the human race that its history consists of sinners, perhaps we are seeing to the communal beam. If we get up tight about what someone is choosing for a model subject, we've got problems and not building models will not solve them. I see genius in the design and power of a machine whether the genius was American, German, Japanese, Soviet etc. etc. Models give credit to that genius. The rest is a coat of paint and if I put stars on a Zero or american flags on the Bismarck, what does that accomplish except denial of the truth. That is where conflict comes from. When people refuse to talk about something, it gets expressed in other ways and sometimes not good ways. And we'll build models from that war on into eternity. Lets just relax and worry if our panel lines are in the right place and not our hearts. That is between each person and his God. This is for fun, at least for me it is.

I am coming to this thread rather late, and actually echo many of the sentiments already expressed. I have actually been accused of being a "war-monger" (now that really dates me!) by some of my peers. Though this occurred a long time ago, I still think upon it from time to time. I do not deny that I build models, some of which may not be "PC". I do it for myself, to give shape to what I've read about (I am an amateur historian).
I understand some people will associate the crooked cross on my ME109FW190JU88 (etc.) will a very evil regime and they are correct, it was a VERY evil regime...so do we ignore that it happened? Does building a B-29 correct this? We are not glorifying Nazi Germany, its acts, or its leadership...we are just building a model.

I forget the literal quote, but there is a saying that history is written by the victorious. I know I'm not close on the quote, but the point is that a lot of history has been recorded through the perspective of the winning side.

Looking back at WWII, everyone tends to focus on the Holocaust, the Battle of Britain (attacks against British civilians), the Japanese in Manchuria, the treatment of prisoners, etc. The Allies also did some things which weren't exactly stellar moments in human history: the relentless bombing campaigns against German cities such as Hamburg, Dresden, and others; the dropping of the atomic bombs; relocation of Japanese-Americans to camps.

So do the people who have issues with models of German equipment also feel the same about models of the American and British bombers used against Germany or a model of the Enola Gay?

I can respect someone if they are against modeling any military equipment. But to pick and choose is being hypocritical.

There's an interesting page listing little known incidents in WWII. I believe their statement of dedication sums it up best.

QUOTE: Massacres of the Second World War http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/massacres.html This page is dedicated to all those who lost their lives through man's inhumanity to man which knows no bounds of race, creed, or time. Any war must be categorized as an atrocity but the war that Hitler started brought a scale of atrocity never previously known. The statistics of World War 11 clearly qualify it, by far, as the most heinous atrocity in all recorded history.