The moral high ground

QUOTE: Originally posted by upnorth If it were me, I'd remind that nun of her own group's darker history and tell her to go play "Big Brother" with someone else!

The Inquisition?

QUOTE: Originally posted by Jugman Where I live (San Francisco), local pundits had misgivings about the Blue Angels' annual air show. Their blood curdled at the sights and sounds of these fabulous machines, which they viewed as symbols of a violent, militaristic culture. With such doltish citizens around me, it's no wonder that I'm cautious about reading my military aviation books while riding the subway to work.

Really? The Blue Angels? I think sometimes people take for granted what it is which ensures they have the right to the freedoms they enjoy.

I suppose it all comes down to attitudes and time frames really. Attitude, whatever the time frame is about 10% what happens around you and 90% what you decide to do about it.

The nun saw something she didn't like and decided to make issue of it, conveniencing herself by ignoring the blood soaked history of her own organization who's tyranical, ironfisted reign over medieval Europe lasted a good deal longer and took many more lives than Hitler did in less than a decade in the mid 20th century.

Her attitude is obviously that of the hypocrite, no better than a Holocaust denier when it comes to the darker chapters of her own group's history.

Go far enough back in history and you realize NOBODY is innocent, we've all done things we'd rather forget, such is humanity.

Machines are machines, its what the human mind does with them thats the problem sometimes. Machines have no mind, no will and no malice. All such things are human vices. The political correctness folks seem to have trouble coming to grips with this fact that we aren't a perfect beast as species go, only an idiot would claim we were perfect.

To those who build models of the "enemy's" hardware (whoever the "enemy" was at the time) keep on doing it, its history preserved.

For the political correctos out there, dust off a copy of George Orwell's "1984" You could also rent the film addaptation that starred Wiliam Hurt, it follows the book well and you get the visuals if reading isn't your thing (or if you burned your copy of it already). Either way, what happens in that story is exactly what you get when political correctness, censorship and revisionist history get free reign. How would you like life so censored that the dictionary has been pared down to six words that you can legally make conversations with and you get nasty punishments for speaking outside those six words? Yep, it happened in that book.

If it were me, I'd remind that nun of her own group's darker history and tell her to go play "Big Brother" with someone else!

No one's ever gotten mad about my models, and most of them are redone to look as if they were serving with the Confederate Army.
Political Correctness is for wimps and communists.
I'll believe what I believe, say what I say, and live how I live 'till the day I die. I'm the one who's responsible for my life, and if that offends another, they didn't have to listen to me.

Sorry to hear that the PC crowd is getting you down, just remember to fight them back by building 100 luftwaffe models, and mailing them to 'em!

MAKE MODELS FOR FREEDOM!

THERE IS NOTHING MORALLY WRONG WITH BUILDING A MODEL.
If some PCAH is moaning about it they need to wind there neck in and get themselves a hobby.

Nuff said.

Darren.

Morals are interpretive and subject to change with societal and individual needs and desires.

Everyday our personal liberties and rights are eroded by well wishers and self proclaimed do-gooders and occupants of the so called moral highground. He who is in control determines what is good or bad for them and unfortunately for all.

A symbol is not evil, but the ideology and actions behind the symbol are.
No flag ever killed a person, nor demanded its will upon others.

Mike

Point well taken. It seems that dialogue is well forgoten "thing" of these reactionaries.
"My view only" based on no argument is the main cause of the suffering.

Thanks Paul. You no doubt remember the good old days of the anti-nuclear protestors, the "peaceful" nuns creeping in in the middle of the night with thier sledgehammers and cows blood and my favorite the infiltrator that got hold of the company van during a launching ceremony and repeatedly rammed it into a Trident rudder until he was subdued. So much has changed now.

Breezely1,
I helped design Trident subs many years ago, and ironically I have an aunt who's a nun.
She once made a comment to me about "death machines", but I pointed out to her that no Trident submarine had ever fired a shot in anger, and that if they achieved their true purpose (which was/is deterrence), then they never would.

That was the last time she ever brought up the subject.

Where I live (San Francisco), local pundits had misgivings about the Blue Angels' annual air show. Their blood curdled at the sights and sounds of these fabulous machines, which they viewed as symbols of a violent, militaristic culture. With such doltish citizens around me, it's no wonder that I'm cautious about reading my military aviation books while riding the subway to work.

As for modeling tanks and airplanes used by our former adversaries, I have mixed feelings. I gaze at my Me262 and wonder if my interest in the technology is separable from the martial hubris that accompanies such effective weaponry. Does modeling ANY military subject brand me as a war-mongering maniac? I think not, but I imagine the liberal, "PC" denizens in my part of the world would disagree.

Few people have seen my military models, but they've all admired my modest handiwork. I just have to remember that if my Jewish pals ever visit, I'd better put the 262 in a drawer - I don't think any explaining would enable them to overcome their visceral reactions to the swastika. Hmm, should I also hide my U-boat and my platoon of German armor?

It's history and we all build a piece of it, whether German, Japanese, Italian, etc. We build because we enjoy it and want to learn from it. As the saying goes...

"Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it."

I have built ww2 german models and have also participated in ww2 living history events and have had to defend myself against people who accuse me of being a Nazi. After I tell them my reasons (it's a hobby and I don't want to be ignorant of historical events), I then ask them why they don't complain about models with Soviet markings on them. This usually shuts them up and the slouch away. That is usally all I need to know about that person and their leanings.

If you haven't already read it (or recently), here's a related thread you might find interesting. I think frostygirl made an excellent point (page 2).

Too disturbing to build?

Yup, it's the fascination with the machinery that drives modellers to built those models not the ideology associated with those machineries.

You know, I started typing a rant about closing museums next, but I am getting tired of all this, and others have echoed most of my comments anyway, so I'll just close with saying that I have never run into that situation and model for your self, not others.
Bruce

There is really only one way to look at this issue - the items we model are machines. Nothing more.
There can be nothing inherently evil or wrong with modelling a piece of machinery that may have been used in a conflict that is current or historical.
The fact that there were many evil deeds done by those in charge of the army or airforce that used these machines really means nothing to us today.
There are many countries (especially in Europe) where it is illegal to display the swastika in any form - understandably this emblem can (and does) offend.
But my concscience is clear when I make a model of a Bf109 or the B-29 Enola Gay.
It's only a model of a machine that had a place in history.
We must learn from the mistakes of history. Hate and fear are the cause of too many atrocities. Love and understanding make peace break out all over.
There's a message there.................
Cheers
LeeTree

I personally see no problems with using symbols from an "evil empire". They are just that symbols. If they pass a law here in the U.S. banning symbols from Axis powers, wouldn't that be censorship and anti-free thought? Would we still be allowed to put the honamura (however that word is spelled!!) on our Japanese planes? I used to work at a museum in California, we received a MiG-21F (actually a S-107) There was so much debate about the markings we were going to put on it. I suggested North Viet-Namese and every one thought I was insane because the didn't want to offend anyone, namely our vets and the Viet-Namese people living in the state!! When I was last out there they had done it in Polish markings.

I thought they already had..

Taking other peoples feelings and beliefs into account is one thing, but this PC stuff can go waaay to far. I personally can't think of anything as benign than modelling.. Isn't building whatever you want also part of freedom of speach? The strange thing is that the PC croud say you have freedom of speach, but just don't say this that or the next.

Everyone is different, so I'm not even going to bother try to please them all. Don't have the time, certainly don't have the energy. I'll just use common sense on saying/doing what at the right time.. Unlike my brother, who lands himself in it soooo many times.

i wonder if the PC lot will start burning books next

WARNING!

Every year, some group jumps on a topic so they can stir up support for their cause. Many years ago, D&D was the target because it was sacrilidge. Models have often been the target, and recently, video games and movies have become the center of attention for supposedly causing the increase in violence. Whne are people going to start accepting personal responsibility for their own actions? If we couldn't build a particular model subject because it had killed someone, there would be nothing left to build. Not just militarily, but autos, ships, even horse and buggy would be banned. If folks want to get all up in arms because I've watched the Crow a few many times or have Natural Born Killers practically memorized, so be it. Don't come over to my house to watch movies. I don't mind being criticized for some of my likes and dislikes, but I'm not going to let it run my life. If I want to build a Me-262 shooting down a P-51, that's my perogative. If I want to play EAW in a Bf-109 and shoot down B-17's, who really cares? Not me. Besides, if we didn't have our hobbies, what would the National Enquirer write about? I'll step down, now.

demono69

I have to admit there are times I've thought about it and felt "funny" about it too.

I'm not sure how to best put it, but I personally think part of it comes down to having a genuine respect for what it is you're modeling. Not only the machinery, but also that period of history and the events which occured.

Besides models, what about the board games, computer games, books, television series and movies?

My mother is French and was raised in France during the war-her father was crippled by the SS in a POW camp. She has never complained about my Panzers or FWs-although she has a right to. She looks at it as history. Now if I put on a red armband...

Thanks everyone for your input. Make no mistake, I've always been proud of my role in our nations defense and am happily working on our nations next generation WMD. But after seeing the strong anti-SS sentiment in the armor forum, it made me stop and think. I always took it for granted that, if you built a Tiger tank , you wouldn't have a problem putting SS unit markings on it. It never occurred to me that not everyone would see it that way. To those people who wont put the swastika on your German plane or the 3rd SS on your Tiger tank, you now have my deepest respect. I've always modelled for historical accuracy and will continue to do so. Didn't mean to turn this into a PC forum, just wanted to know if anyone had been criticized for their choices.

This forum is for modelling, NOT politics!!!!!!!!


We now return you to our regualarly scheduled modelling!!!!

QUOTE: Originally posted by Erock68 QUOTE: Breezly I think I understand what you're saying and my answer to you is if you don't plan on becoming a politician, don't worry about it. You don't have to be "politically correct" Yeah, but you can deny it on television like most politicians do..... "I did not have relations with that model kit" or "I just opened the box but I did not use the glue"

ROFL someone remembers the Clinton days and the BS he was pumping the nation! Good One....my side still hurts!

QUOTE: Breezly I think I understand what you're saying and my answer to you is if you don't plan on becoming a politician, don't worry about it. You don't have to be "politically correct"

Yeah, but you can deny it on television like most politicians do.....

"I did not have relations with that model kit" or "I just opened the box but I did not use the glue"

I've seen a few kooky people around - Holocaust deniers, revisionists - that also happen to be very good modellers who build almost entirely WW2 German stuff. I don't think the two are connected, rather the modelling flows from the same historical interest have most of us share in a period, even if that interest has developed along mislead and errorneous paths.
I doubt any modeller was corrupted by his hobby - there are far more insidious influences on people than sticking bits of plastic together and painting them. It can be an extension of an unhealthy interest in (for example) Nazism, but I doubt it has ever created it in the first instance. Just my 2p

dont scratch the old wound...that was a heat topic with my old classmates (dont want to get political but mostly communists..yes we have plenty of them left in europe...lol) when i was showing them german, japanese, even finnish models....for a reason when they saw the yaks and sturmoviks with all these graffitis and slogans they were all joy!!!!
i wonder how they cannot understand that they are reflections of history and not political manifestations.....
ps as you are aware Walter Nowotny;s remains were removed from Austrian Invalides the heroes cemetery on the ground of his nazist past....the petition was started by a counsilor of british-jewish extraction- nothing implied just a fact-that had his grandparent killed as a bomber command crew. On the same way we saw the destruction of stalin's lenin's even saddam's statutes..i think samples of them should remain so noone forgets the past. as they say if ou have not learned from the past you are doomed to repeat it.

I've wondered if I should build my Luftwaffe models also.
I guess this comes from having to look over my shoulder in our free
country so I don't get ambushed. Aaah the joys of progress.
How would the sister feel if she was held responsible for
the churches actions throughout history? She's not a murderer and
neither are you.People have questioned my motives for building military
models.What really bothers me about it is some of these people
question a persons morality etc. and claim their superiority.
They'll criticize you for every little mistake and will not
think twice about saying or doing whatever it takes to hurt someone
or get ahead in life. So much for the high ground.
Fuzzy

I once worked with a very wise man.
He told me that most modelers are fans of technology and what the machines do,not what they were used for.
When I build I don't vision a sherman blowing holes in people.
I see a piece of technology and history.
Next time someone tells you are a bad person for building a product for use in defence of our nation
Ask them what they have done for this country and to protect our(and their's) freedom.
Then remind them that this a free country and they are free to leave it any time.
You may even want to offer to buy them a one way ticket to the country of their choice.