Why did USMC Not Change Over to the Apache?

I've heard that some Longbow units deployed to the sandbox right now are removing the Longbow-specific black boxes. Those avionics are nothing but dead weight for the sorties they're flying.

Don't believe everything you read on the Longbow's capabilities. Those 16 most dangerous radar returns might be rocks. Nothing beats the Mk1 eyeball and direct view optics for positive ID.

The Comanche is history maybe next time?

me personally, i think the apache has some really cool technology. The thing that interests me though is its radar (lonbow version ah-64D) it can pop up behind some tress or a hill 8 kms away, itll have allok at the battlefield, it will recognize 256 targets, priotize the 16 most dangerous at that given moment and destroy all of them and itll do all that, in 28seconds. It carries 12hellfires, 72 rockets, and it has a cannon where-ever the pilot is looking and fires10 high xplosive round a sec.
But i have to agree that the apache has some difficulties, but some prefection will result in another model. The commanche??

sasarchiver

John,

Congress gave the Marine Corps the go ahead to buy new, production line AH-1Zs and UH-1Ys. It was deemed more cost-effective than remanufacturing AH-1Ws/UH-1Ns to AH-1Z/UH-1Y s. Not sure of an exact deployment date for the new Huey and Cobra. It's a good deal for the Marines since that way they won't have to take "Whiskeys" or UH-1Ns off the line for "reman", and keep them ready for deployments.

We'll probably have to wait a while for a more accurate model of the new "Yankee and Zulu Skids".

Hi all

Forgive me for jumping in this late but I have some questions on the Zulu.

Is there an official date for its entry into service?

Will the Whiskeys be upgraded or replaced?

Lastly, besides Italeri's Whiskey/Zulu hybrid has anyone heard any rumours of someone like Minicraft or Hasegawa releasing an accurate Zulu kit?

Thanks
John

Missiles can go crazy from time to time for a variety of reasons and from a shooters perspective it may looked like it did a 180 but chances are it didn't.

Firing a TOW over water affects the max range of the missile if the wire becomes submerged. It's not very much but something you need to take into account. Over water shots are rare though. While the TOW can be used for many purposes, it is mainly anti-armor (or used to be) and I have never had to shoot a tank on the high seas. Hellfires are great but TOWs really round out the load and can do some things that Hellifres can't. The reasons why the TOWs were not kept on the Zulu is the extra black boxes that add weight and take up space and the extra weight/maintenance of the articulated pylons in the stubwings. It was also claimed at one time that they were going to close down the airborne TOW production line as the Army was ceasing use and the Marine Corps can't afford a missile of it's own.

That's what I suspected - it was just a bad round. I know electricity's a funny thing, especially around water, but I couldn't think of a reason why firing over the open sea would mess with it.

And you're right AH1WSnake - I shouldn't have used the word "replaced." I know better than that

I'm not sure about the TOW over water story, but I do know that our CO firing one at CAX had his TOW explode about 100 yards in front of his aircraft after it launched. I suppose any munition has a bug somewhere along the line of thousands being produced.

Anyways, I just wanted to add that the Corps hasn't "replaced" the TOW with Hellfire -- not until the Zulu model anyways. Both missiles are still used extensively in day-to-day operations, and often carry a mix of both types on sorties.

Just a note that bombs of any kind are not currently authorized loads for the AH-1W. They were in the past, but have not been for at least several years.

Supercobra is correct in that even though you could hang a Longbow launcher on a Whiskey, it won't work. The USMC has no plans to integrate the Longbow on Cobras since the Hellfire is intended to be replaced by the Joint Common Missile, which will have tri-mode seeker (Laser, IR & Radar). This will be integrated on all Cobras (and Apaches, etc, etc).

The TOW story may be true, but as an engineer who has done lots of ordnance testing, I'd say that would more likely be some kind of missile failure. If it actually happened, I'm thinking that we would call that a deficiency and not send it to the fleet with fixing it.

Supercobra

I was told by a former Marine I used to work with that one of the reasons the Corps replaced TOW with Hellfire was that the TOW missiles were "flakey" when fired over water. On one training flight off the NC coast, a Whiskey popped off a TOW and w/o warning it doubled back and nearly hit the Huey photo chase he was in. Any truth to the TOW over water story or is he telling tales?

Thanks,

Thanks for the info. The army's OH-58D's are the only ones right now that train for the counter air role, with ATAS/Stingers, although thats a dying art and from what I hear. I like the idea that marines train for the counter air role and lament the fact that the army has the institutional memory of a gnat on speed, and will only go hard core and play catch upafter a Rooivalk or Hind-D shoves a IR missile up our...anyways.

Do you have any pics of bombs hanging off a hardpoint? I have a 1/35 AH-1W languishing in closet hell and I thought that might be an interesting weapon loadout.

Yes, Marine Cobras (AH-1J, AH-1T, AH-1W) have provisions for carrying bombs. We haven't done it in a while. Every now and then a MEU will go out and try to talk the Harrier det out of a couple of bombs just to day they did it but I doubt anyone has done that in a while. I've only dropped one bomb from a Cobra. The most common one we used to carry was the CBU-55 fuel air explosive. Idea was to use it for clearing obstacles in LZs. In Desert Shiled there was a bright idea to use them for clearing minefields so to see how well it would work we set up a test area marked with engineer tape. We put CBUs on two aircraft. As mentioned, there are no sighting provisions. Lead flew over about 2000 feet and missed missed the entire area long.
-2 adjusted from lead and missed short. They scrapped the BAH-1W idea and we never tried it again.

In Vietnam on Marine UH-1Es they had a system called the HTW (helicopter trap weapon) that was two Zuni warheads with proximity fuzes on parachutes. Idea was that they would fly over the LZ, drop the HTWs, the parachutes would make them fall vertically, and the horixontal blast would clear booby traps and obstacles. I think that they were actually used more than just a few times. I've got a picture of the setup around here somewhere. They hung side-by-side on the tally rack.

Sidewinders are a little more ingrained in our tactics. While we haven't had much of an air-to-air threat lately we do train for it. We carry captives fairly often and have air-to-air in our training syllabus but we don't get very many actual missiles for training. I've only fired two Sidewinders in my career for training and have only carried them operationally once. One Sidewinder takes the place of four TOW or Hellifre and no one wants to make that tradeoff.

The Longbow uses a different Hellfire launcher rail than normal Hellfires and I "think" that there is some prepointing talk that takes place between the aircraft and the missile so even if you put the right launcher on an AH-1W and had an AH-64D painting the target I don't think it would work.

In a book I have, it shows a picture of a napalm canister made by Bell for the H-13. So actually dropping bombs MAY have been tried, but I see two big probelms with it:
1. Helo must have the speed and height to escape the blast
2. Accuracately placed the bomb where it is needed
Anybody out there have any more info on this subject?

QUOTE: Originally posted by mscottholt Okay I do have a question about the Whiskey. I know with the Longbow that the radar bird can designate targets with the radar, and the non radar birds just pull the trigger and the hellfire goes to its assigned targets. Is it possible with the Whiskey to carry radar hellfire and have someone else do the targeting? I've seen pictures of whiskey's with the AIM-9, and read that bombs can be carried, is that true.

To my knowledge, the AH-1W has no provisions for carrying radar-guided hellfires. The software and equipment setup for the avionics in the bird is for laser-guided only. That being said, we can still have one bird (or forward observer) do the laser designating, while the firing bird can remain out of sight with his missile tuned to the proper laser code, then fire it in a high-arc.
The Marine Cobra is capable of firing Sidewinders, yes. AIM-9 launch rails can be fitted to either outboard station, and let 'er rip in an air-to-air engagement. A targeting reticle gets displayed on the HUD, and the pilot gets the warbling tone in his ICS too. Those same rails can also carry the Sidearm, which is a radar-seeking (think HARM) air-to-ground missile that looks similar to a sidewinder.
As far as bombs, lol, I have seen a funny picture where some of our ordnance guys are posing with two 500 pounders attached to the stub wing racks, but it was just a gag shot with the bombs provided by the fixed-wing guys working on the same ramp. So yeah, we can technically mount bombs, but I can't think of any kind of crazy situation where you'd want to!

Thanks AH1Wsnake

Okay I do have a question about the Whiskey. I know with the Longbow that the radar bird can designate targets with the radar, and the non radar birds just pull the trigger and the hellfire goes to its assigned targets. Is it possible with the Whiskey to carry radar hellfire and have someone else do the targeting?

I've seen pictures of whiskey's with the AIM-9, and read that bombs can be carried, is that true.

I think you need a little PT time to burn off some steam there, SSgtD.

I'm so sick of the service rivalry B.S.
Marines always take pride in their own service -- as we should -- but then you always have the few "uber-marines" out there that feel the Corps can do no wrong, and preach to their younger devil dogs about the worthlessness of all other services. Pure crap.

Down in Haiti, not only did our unit work with Army Medevac, but also foreign detachments like Chile, France, and Canada. Think the "my way or the highway" attitude goes over well in situations like that? We all need to work together here folks, not bad-mouth each other at every turn. But there's always one.

Lastly, having a CDI/QAR stamp and an A&P license gives you outstanding credentials as a maintenance technician, but I don't recall flight lessons or stick time anywhere in that curriculum.

Okay, everybody, let's all sit back, have a cold one and smoke 'em if you got 'em. (I don't anymore, I quit. Smoking, that is. Still have a stogie now and then, but I digress...) Last I checked, we're all on the same side, so everyone, take a deep cleansing breath. Hold it. Release. There, all better.

As someone said above, this "blue on blue" ain't helpin' a thing. My only goal in starting this thread was to get info on why the Corps decided on the Cobra over the Apache, and continues to do so. Thanks to all who replied for supplying the info. I found it very informative from a historical point of view and very good background info.

mscottholt: I see your point about the thread title. Guess a better one might have been: "Why did the USMC pick the Cobra?" or some such. I shall be more circumspect in the future, I do believe.

supercobra: Thanks for the pics of the exhaust on the birds. May have to give that a shot on one of my 1/72 birds. As for my 1/700 Cobras on my "gator navy" ships, I may forgo it! My 45 yr old eyes will likely no cooperate!

PEACE ALL!

QUOTE: Originally posted by mscottholt I knew this would happen and this thread would devolve with somebody dogging another service, it was already setup for failure by being called Apache vs. Cobra. I guess I'll add to the downward spiral. Medevac pilot's do not have the authority to turn down missions, nor would they wish to. When I was a pilot flying MEDEVAC, it was treated as a sacred duty to get ambulatory cases out and would of done everything in my power to find a way to accomplish the mission. Only an O-6 or higher has the authority to redirect missions to what he/she feels is the best use of MEDEVAC. Until recently CASEVAC, was not tasked to Medical Ambulance COmpany's as we evac'd out the more serious cases, walking wounded would be evac'd in the first available helicopter. Perhaps the controlling authority felt that the marines wounded were non ambulatory, hence not high on the priority. I don't know, neither do you SSGTD, unless you also crew hawks too or were in the medical TOC during all this. Medevac is a theater level asset, and in limited quantity, nor do the aircraft have the room/capacity for all wounded, ambulatory or non-ambulatory. We have have our slicks that get tasked to handle the CASEVAC, but demand permitting, MEDEVAC will perform it. But like in the Swedish Helicopter crash thread, you presume to know all there is about helicopter flying and in your expertise in watching a 3 minute video can tell exactly what is going on in that pilot's head and that Hoplite. And now you are making assumptions from your extensive experience as a PHROG CREW MEMBER that you know Army Medevac procedures, and now dislike us for something that you cooked up in your head, i.e that we're cowards for not landing and getting wounded. Do the other marines that serve honorably and post to this thread, don't make them look like the fool you do.

FIRST OFF, YOU ARE CALLING ME A LIRE. AND I DO NOT APPRECIATE THAT, MY NAME IS NOT JOHN KERRY.
YOU CAN GET A HOLD OF OLLIE NORTH HE WAS ON MY PLANE THAT DAY, AND HE WAS PISSED MORE THAN USE. I DID NOT HEAR WHAT OLLI SID TO YOUR ARMY BROTHER, WHEN WE GOT BACK BUT IM SURE IT WAS NOT NICE.

ALL I KNOW IS YOUR BELOVED ARMY H-60 CREW, "WE ARE IN CREW DAY AND THAT IS A HOT L.Z WE ARE NOT GOING IN."

SECOND I AM A CDIQAR, WITH A A&P LICENSE. I KNOW WHAT THE HELL IM TALKING ABOUT WHEN IT COMES TO A HELICOPTER FLYING.

Supercobra,
Thanks for the info on the exhaust fairing sir. Maybe Ill see you someday on a FARP somewhere. Semper Fi !

For me, the Cobra is more like a Sexy model sleek and curvy and the Apache is more like a female body builder on steroids
Ch

I knew this would happen and this thread would devolve with somebody dogging another service, it was already setup for failure by being called Apache vs. Cobra. I guess I'll add to the downward spiral.
Medevac pilot's do not have the authority to turn down missions, nor would they wish to. When I was a pilot flying MEDEVAC, it was treated as a sacred duty to get ambulatory cases out and would of done everything in my power to find a way to accomplish the mission. Only an O-6 or higher has the authority to redirect missions to what he/she feels is the best use of MEDEVAC. Until recently CASEVAC, was not tasked to Medical Ambulance COmpany's as we evac'd out the more serious cases, walking wounded would be evac'd in the first available helicopter. Perhaps the controlling authority felt that the marines wounded were non ambulatory, hence not high on the priority. I don't know, neither do you SSGTD, unless you also crew hawks too or were in the medical TOC during all this.
Medevac is a theater level asset, and in limited quantity, nor do the aircraft have the room/capacity for all wounded, ambulatory or non-ambulatory. We have have our slicks that get tasked to handle the CASEVAC, but demand permitting, MEDEVAC will perform it. But like in the Swedish Helicopter crash thread, you presume to know all there is about helicopter flying and in your expertise in watching a 3 minute video can tell exactly what is going on in that pilot's head and that Hoplite. And now you are making assumptions from your extensive experience as a PHROG CREW MEMBER that you know Army Medevac procedures, and now dislike us for something that you cooked up in your head, i.e that we're cowards for not landing and getting wounded. Do the other marines that serve honorably and post to this thread, don't make them look like the fool you do.

QUOTE: Originally posted by supercobra Devildog1rh, This is new within the last month. About half the birds half the mod. SSgtD, I apologize for the tone of my emails. I wasn't trying to pick a fight or attack you personally. It's just that I fly with everyone and in support of everyone and I've develpoed some good interservice relationships and hate to see everyone take the blame for a few knuckleheads (which every branch has).

I know sir, I fly with everyone to, but I'm a Marine as are you. And you know how that go's. I do not like the Air Force or the Army. More the Army for not going in to get there guys out, because It was a hot L.Z. that just pissed me off.

What Squadron are you with?

Devildog1rh,
This is new within the last month. About half the birds half the mod.

SSgtD,
I apologize for the tone of my emails. I wasn't trying to pick a fight or attack you personally. It's just that I fly with everyone and in support of everyone and I've develpoed some good interservice relationships and hate to see everyone take the blame for a few knuckleheads (which every branch has).

Supercobra, is this new exhaust fairing just making it onto birds? Ive looked at some pics I took in Iraq and those birds had the old style. I only left in March..its possible I didnt notice the change, but its such an obvious difference that I dont think I would have missed it.

Yes, I agree with you Marines would prefer Marines Air if they have a choice. I don't believe in generalities that everything else sucks though - especially when those guys are risking their lifes to save Marines. Are you sure that "the Army would not go in and get 'em out."? Maybe it wasn't assigned to them or they didn't have anyone available. Do you under stand the difference between CASEVAC and MEDEVAC? Unitl recently the Army hadn't been getting assigned to do the CASEVAC missions; those were specifically assigned to the Phrogs. The Army does mainly MEDEVAC. However, yesterday I escorted an Army H-60 doing CASEVAC and he lauched in dog crap vis and did an excellent job. Also, I really don't believe that FAC you know "about got killed by them (Air Force) every time they came in." If he did, I'm wondering if he needs to go back to FAC (TACP) school.

Enough on this crap. I stayed out of this blue on blue thread of Apache vs Cobra because as a Marine Cobra pilot I didn't think I could remain unbiased and now I find that I'm actually coming to defend the Army. Since I escort them quite a bit out here maybe I'm just doing my job.

On to some modelling related info. Below is a picture of the AH-1W in its latest configuration. Notice that the 2nd stage exhaust fairing is removed (as depicted on the Italeri Cobras rather than faired as on the MCR/Academy). Also note the new 3rd stage fairing covering the exhaust stack.

QUOTE: Originally posted by supercobra Actually, the Marine grunt doesn't call for anyone specifically and really doesn't have too much say in what platform he gets. He (his FAC, Air Officer, or JTAC) puts in a request for air support. What gets provided and responds depends on what's available and what gets routed by the DASC or TACC. The Marine on the ground doesn't get much choice or say in that. The other day we had F-16's and AH-1W's respond to the same call. Both did a wonderful job and I'm sure the grunts were happy to have either or. Same with MEDEVAC/CASEVAC. Injured get carried by Army H-60s and Marine Phrogs. Both are doing a great job and I'm sure the guys bleeding in the back aren't very parochial about who evacs them. If you are talking about the incident where the B-52's dropped on the CH-53E's that was not in Afghanistan and while tragic, is no reason to condemn an entire service. I have controlled plenty of air and have been personally bombed by Marine air. I hate to sound placid but that stuff happens. As far as who is better and what you would take for a particular instance; it all depends on the situation. As a Cobra guy I'm extremely biased but but permit me an analogy: We have two kinds of bottled water in Iraq, Mossn and Nestle. The taste of the Mossn sucks but it comes in bigger bottles. Sitting in garrison which one I choose depends on whether I have anything to add to it for flavor, whether I can drink it all in one sitting, etc. Out in the middle of the desert I'm going to be pickled tink to have either.

You are right the B-52 and the Shitter thing was not in Afgan it was in Africa.

Now what did I say If we can not get marine air then we call the Air Force. Because If they are Marines on the ground there Marines in air.

I'm a Phrog guy, and in OIf 1 I was in HMM-268 and picked up Army, Marines and Navy guys for CASEVAC. When the Army would not go in to get'em out. I have a Capt that just got of a FAC and he and the Grunts did not like the Air Force to give them air support, he about got killed by them every time they cam in. I know chit happens, but when the Air Force is all you can get, use it.

Marine air is by far the best at Air to ground air support. In my eyes.

Im just saying Marines prefer Marines.

Trigger, perhaps it had to do with where I was and that I was on an air station dominated by Marine Air. But we were the hub for aircraft ops for every service. We had alot of Army squadrons (Blackhawks) and we did see Apaches. It could be that there werent any squadrons of Kiowas deployed in my area. But I cant imagine that they are being used in any great numbers.

That's kinda funny - you not seeing a single OH-58D. Seems like every time I turn on the news, and there's new footage of a Kiowa either flying in the background or (sadly) shot down. Cobrahistorian has sent me pix of them in theater and they were used over Apaches when the two Hussein boys made their last stand. Jon told me why they were used instead of Apaches - I'll have to try to look that up later

I've only seen one pic of AH-6J Little Birds in Iraq:


I'm waiting on a magazine article from Cobrahistorian about their use over there - not holding my breath; it'll be a month since he's away at Ft. Lewis right now. But you're right - those have a specific task, and that's to support the SOF dudes, not day-to-day CAS