Vietnam Huey

I thought i had it cracked for a second there, i remembered a picture in one of my books of a Navy Seal crouched behind a bush with what looked like an M60 with magazine. But after some investigation it turns out to be a Stoner M63A. Anyway incase it helps heres a picture of the 100 round feed box.

Andy

Here's a link to the newer training manual for the M60 FM 3-22.68 Chapter 2:

https://atiam.train.army.mil/soldierPortal/atia/adlsc/view/public/6713-1/fm/3-22.68/chap2.htm#1

Of course it doesn't mention a magazine, I'll need FM 23-67 from 1964 to have a chance of finding that info, but at least anyone interested in M60's will have a FREE link to the manual ( other sites charge $1-$3 for a PDF copy).  Anyway, I thought some of you might be interested.

    Ray
 

I found the motherload of online manuals:

http://stevespages.com/page7c.htm

The older M60 manual FM 23-67 is on this page along with all kinds of other interesting stuff.

The manual shows a single illustration which seems to represent a cloth ammo magazine attached to the gun:

[img]http://

There is no mention of a metal magazine, but now, at least I know that the metal plate on the M60 I posted above is a belt guide.  Here is the gun without ammo:

[img]http://

And here with the belt in place:

[img]http://

Was this plate the part that was replaced in Vietnam with C-ration cans? 

Ray 

Ray,

Sorry for the quality of this picture, but i just grabbed it off some footage, was wondering if it could be the cloth ammo bag you mentioned.

Andy

While on the subject of M60's, i was wondering if you guys could tell me why some slicks used the ammo chutes with their M23 mounted 60s and why some used the loose belt C ration can method?? I think all the Air cav huey pictures ive seen used the ammo chute from 1966 onwards but there are loads of pictures of other units dated much later using the loose belt.

Was it a shortage of, or 'supply chutes to favorite units thing'? Did they get snagged up, or have a short shelf life? or was it just a crew chiefs preference thing?

Also, does anyone know the deal with the white helmets? In a few of the early pictures some of the pilots and crew had white helmets as apposed to green. Was white the standard color of helmets in the early years or was it just certain units and when did the green ones become standard?

Andy.

rotorwash wrote:

I found the motherload of online manuals: http://stevespages.com/page7c.htm The older M60 manual FM 23-67 is on this page along with all kinds of other interesting stuff. The manual shows a single illustration which seems to represent a cloth ammo magazine attached to the gun: [img]http:// There is no mention of a metal magazine, but now, at least I know that the metal plate on the M60 I posted above is a belt guide.  Here is the gun without ammo: [img]http:// And here with the belt in place: [img]http:// Was this plate the part that was replaced in Vietnam with C-ration cans?  Ray

Ray, I would personally doubt that the flat metal plate you are reffering to is a "belt guide".

The plate has a few detents and such that imply it is actually used to clip something onto the side of the weapon.  Just like the magazine that I'm familiar with, the original feed belt flows over the top of whatever clips on that bracket... I'm suspecting a newer style mag.

The question was asked "How did the ration cans get placed on the M60?", as far as I know the answer is they were held between the magazine clips on the LH side of the weapon, the photo I posted supports this. 

I'm not surprised that aircraft crew would have never seen a magazine for an M60, why would they ever need a small can that only holds 40 rounds?  And although we almost never used the magazines themselves, I can assure you that every M60 I ever handled between 1979 & 1995 had the magazine clips and the mag was part of the CES for the weapon.

Of course it could be that the areas I'm talking about are unique to the Australian version of the M60 although I would doubt that we would have tooled up just to create such a small modification to the weapon.

From this website: http://www.warsenal.com/mgUSA.html

The Australians introduced into the tactical use of the M60 two practices, based on experience in jungle, the first reaction firefight takes place with only a few rounds being fired off while the soldiers take cover. Australian gunners used to fit a short belt of only about 15 or 20 rounds on the gun, which was enough for the first firing. A full belt was fitted after going to ground. They also designed and manufactured a 'ready reaction magazine' of 28-40 rounds, enough for the initial exchange of fire, which fitted on to the belt carrier attachment of the M60 and fed into the ammunition feed tray. After taking cover, a full belt was loaded. The ready reaction magazine stuck out of the side of the gun 'a bit like on the old Sten Gun' as it was described by an Australian veteran of the Vietnam War.

So I can only talk about the weapons I handled... but I was sure they were no different to the USA based ones.

skypirate1 wrote:

While on the subject of M60's, i was wondering if you guys could tell me why some slicks used the ammo chutes with their M23 mounted 60s and why some used the loose belt C ration can method?? I think all the Air cav huey pictures ive seen used the ammo chute from 1966 onwards but there are loads of pictures of other units dated much later using the loose belt. Was it a shortage of, or 'supply chutes to favorite units thing'? Did they get snagged up, or have a short shelf life? or was it just a crew chiefs preference thing? Also, does anyone know the deal with the white helmets? In a few of the early pictures some of the pilots and crew had white helmets as apposed to green. Was white the standard color of helmets in the early years or was it just certain units and when did the green ones become standard? Andy.

It was a heck of alot faster to re-load when using the "C-Ration" can as apposed to running it up the chute was a prime reason alot of crewchief and gunners didn't use the.

White was an early color used on a lot of flight helmets, was replaced by OD which also wasn't as visible if you ended up hiding in the bush.

I can add to a couple of previous queries.

I never saw a magazine/ammo box for any M-60 or even heard of one either...

Ray - I don't recall that plate being there, and believe it was replaced in Vietnam with C-ration can...

Andy - we didn't have ammo chutes for either gunner or C.E. in C/227AHB 1969-early 1970.  I only saw them attached to a minigun on our, Nighthawk.  I assume they DIDN'T snag much because the ammo would have been flying thru the chute for the minigun...

Helmets were supplied OD.  I heard that guys STOPPED painting their helmets because it made an easy target from a distance.  Being a modeler before I went to Nam, I was determined to have nose art and an interesting helmet, so I painted / personalized my helmet myself and was the first and only one in my co. to have done so before others caught on.  But the prevailing opinion was it made a good target - better on your head than mine!  If I had spent more than 10 minutes on the ground I'm sure I would have painted it out with OD!!

Howie

OK guys,

  First off, thanks for all the responses.  Andy, I hope you aren't upset that the thread went off ona tangent, but, once again, something I thought would be simple is anything but!

   After a LOOONG time consulting Dr. Google, I finally found a picture of the M60 cloth ammo mag:

Also, I found this pic that just made me smile.  I call it "GOT AMMO?":

 [img]http://

I spoke with my father (who was an armorer) and he remembers removing something that sounds like the plate pictured below.  I believe he referred to it as "a piece of junk" that was replaced with either a full or empty C-ration can (at least he remmebers using both).  I think the correct term for the metal plate is the "hanger" as in where you would hang the cloth magazine:

[img]http://

Finally, have any of you run accross any pics of these things:

[img]http://

It looks like a M60 but it's an airsoft gun.  Man, if somebody come down my street toting one of these I'd assume he was looking to get fragged.  It looks real until you take a very close look (at least to this civilian).

    Ray

EDIT:  Jackpot, I finally found the dash 10 manual for the M60.  Go to the US Ordinance site to download it:

http://www.usord.com/download_USORD.html 

Here are the relevent pages, read description of part "J":

[img]http://[img]http://" border="0" />[/img]

Howie Belkin wrote:

I never saw a magazine/ammo box for any M-60 or even heard of one either...

I think I'll sign off from the "method of hanging a ration can" debate by making a last comment and then letting it.  It seems to be going in circles.

As I said earlier, I am not sure when the M60 changed to have the large flat metal plate on the side.  It is definately different from the ones that I used.

Here is the pic I posted earlier;

And when compared to this pic;

You can see that there are significant differences.

To hang a C-ration can on the M60 on the top pic was a pretty easy thing to do, they just clicked in place.... now, back to your regular transmission.

Clear.... underneath

Andrew,

  I think I get it.  The dash 10 I mentioned above is from 1998.  I bet if I can find the original dash 10 manual from the 60's it will show the configuration you illutsrated initially.  I assumed that the M60 mentioned in the manual was the same as the original M60A, but it appears that that is not the case.  At any rate, just another detail to work out.  There should be an old M60 lying around Ft. Rucker.  I'll just have to have a look at one if I get a chance.  Thanks for your help.  Believe it or not, yur original post did make sense to me, I was just trying to figure out what part was scrapped for the C-ration can.  I hope you hang around the forum with the rest of the vets to help keep us civilians honest.  I think I speak for all of us when I say it wouldn't be the same without you guys input.

    Ray

Ray

your 'Got Ammo' guy's not planning on going anywhere soon!

thanx to all you guys for teaching this old dog new tricks.  You've taught me a few things I never knew!  And that airsoft gun looks real at a glance.  It'd look great on the mantle!

Howie

rotorwash wrote:

Andrew,   I think I get it.  The dash 10 I mentioned above is from 1998.  I bet if I can find the original dash 10 manual from the 60's it will show the configuration you illutsrated initially.  I assumed that the M60 mentioned in the manual was the same as the original M60A, but it appears that that is not the case.  At any rate, just another detail to work out.  There should be an old M60 lying around Ft. Rucker.  I'll just have to have a look at one if I get a chance.  Thanks for your help.  Believe it or not, yur original post did make sense to me, I was just trying to figure out what part was scrapped for the C-ration can.  I hope you hang around the forum with the rest of the vets to help keep us civilians honest.  I think I speak for all of us when I say it wouldn't be the same without you guys input.     Ray

Thanks Ray, there are no problems here at all and I assure you that I ain't going nowhere (does that double negative mean that I am going somewhere?), I was just trying to bring my contribution to the circlular discussion to a timely end. 

My main reason for hanging around this forum is the Huey info, I'm planning my first scale RC build of a UH-1B and this forum has been a terrific research tool, this thread in particular.

BTW... I would not consider myself a VET in any shape or form.  I am a 45 y.o. who joined at 17 and discharged only having ever served on nothing more frightening than a peacekeeping mission.  But I certainly do tips me hat to those that have served in any capacity.

Ed & Howie.

It does seem unfair that the history of the 227th isnt as well known as the 229th, though its probably just due to books like 'Chickenhawk' and 'We were soldiers' and obviously the movie. Maybe some of the guys from your unit should get together and tell their stories, as i know, from my research, there are many to be told.

On the subject of the 'We were soldiers' movie, Its interesting to note the anger expressed by Hal Moore in a later interview over some of the scenes. I know that many of the guys on here will already know, but for the benifit of those that dont, The last part of the movie never happened!, although the 1/7th guys did fix bayonets they never charged the enemy as depicted and the Bruce Crandall single handed gunship frenzy at the end of the Movie was sheer fantasy. When moore confronted the director Randall Wallace over the scenes, he was told.. "Hal its a movie..not the history channel" lol.

I think its great that people want to make films and publicise what you guys went through over in Vietnam. And the whole motivation behind it these days is to finaly show the truth, but in the middle of trying to do it they create more lies, i understand that thats the nature and the attraction of Hollywood, but i think because of the nature of the whole Vietnam war issue when dealing with a film on the subject, the one real tribute and groundbreaking step forward would be to just stick to the FACTS, i think its about time, after 40 years of living with controversy and lies the veterans deserve nothing less than the facts, otherwise whats the point.

Thats my opinion anway .

Thats why i think it so important that you guys tell your stories and share your info and its great that people are starting to collect oral histories and finaly giving you guys an oppertunity to tell your side of the story so that future generations arent left with the same media based impression of the last 40 years. I dont agree with all the descisions of your government or mine and i dont agree with many aspects of the Vietnam war, or any war, i just believe that its about time that the guys in the field stopped being blamed for the descisions made by the guys in the air conditioned office. I have the upmost respect for any guy that places himself in the line of fire ,as if he makes mistakes in combat not only is he a target for the enemy he becomes a target at home. (if that makes sense). Anyway i think its time people at home in their courtroom armchairs, reading their (edited, to attract sales) newspapers, stopped judging and started understanding.

Ive learnt so much from guys like you, its opened my eyes and i just wish everyone could hear the stories, It would be great to see a book about the 227th AHB.

Andy 

GrandadJohn,

Thanks for the info, it does make sense that the 60s were loaded faster without the chutes, i wonder how many holes in helmets it took before someone decided white probably wasnt the best color!

Andy

Howie,

Did you want the chutes or was you happy with what you had? I saw your pictures on the C/227 site was that your "Nevada gambler" art work on the nose? Just out of interest, what did you paint on your helmet? Ive seen some great ones, i spoke to a guy on one of the other threads regarding artwork on helmets his comment made me laugh, its worth sharing..

" It reminds me of a helicopter pilot's helmet that flew me into a fire. On the back of his helmet he had a broken helicopter inside a red circle with a line through it and in block letters below that Crashing Sucks. I wasn't sure if I should feel comfortable that he was against crashing or be concerned that he might have more experience with aerial mishaps than most."

Did you guys get to bring your helmets home? as it looks like alot of work went into some of them and it would be terrible to have had to leave them behind.

Andy

skypirate1 wrote:

GrandadJohn, Thanks for the info, it does make sense that the 60s were loaded faster without the chutes, i wonder how many holes in helmets it took before someone decided white probably wasnt the best color! Andy

I don't know, but in my opinion one would have been one too many

Andy

none of our slicks had chutes, and neither of the guns on the helicopter I was assigned to had them so I just got down to business with what we had.  I don't know why we didn't have them for the slicks, but as it's been said, it was a lot faster to load w/o them.

that is Nevada Gambler on the C/227 website.  My crewchief was from Nevada.  There was an awesome AH-1G with Arizona Gambler and a rattlesnake (Cobra?) nose art at our base.  I insisted on painting nose art, the crewchief said he'd look the other way but I agreed to a name he'd agree to.

I had a yellow/black 1^st Cav Div insignia centered on the back, bottom.  Then I painted a yellow streak (line) from over the insignia to over the top to the front of the helmet, like a football helmet stripe.  Then on my right side on the visor cover I copied a 1960's peace poster with Snoopy ‘dancing' throwing flowers in the air, and over that in an arc the words Feeling Groovy!  It wasn't professionally done but it looked like what it was supposed to look like.

When guys got on I got mixed reactions.  I guess enough grunts thought I was nuts, a lot thought it was funny as it was - incongruous?  Some must have thought I was a hippie draftee (negative on both accounts).

We joked about the 1^st Cav insignia representing ‘the horse that couldn't be ridden, the river that couldn't be crossed, and the color the reason why!"  When I got  there I didn't know if was going to do what I had to do, or turn yellow and want to run and hide, so my ‘yellow streak' football stripe was my little head trip/personal statement.  For what it's worth I found you basically ‘reacted' to ea situation. 

And no dammit, I turned in everything!  A day or so before I was supposed to leave, the clerk came up and gave me my orders and told me I had to turn everything in NOW, catch a flight in fifteen minutes or spend several more days there.  I really wanted my nomex shirt with our cool co. Ghostrider patch.  It would be 30 yrs before I had one of those patches again!  Forget about the helmet!  I recently picked up a GI Joe doorgunner and when I'm up to it, was going to recreate the helmet art - in miniature.

Howie

Andy

I saw an interiew of Oliver Stone on TV several yrs ago and he blew off the interviewer stating he "made a movie.  A movie has nothing to do with reality or with history, it's a movie..." or something close to that.  The Capt. he served under in Nam wrote a book stating that Stone was on another planet because none of what he showed in PLATOON ever happened.  And 'they' worshipped at Stone's feet that here was a real Nam combat infantry vet, in total control of his film, so you KNOW what you're seeing is the way it was!  God help us!  So he folded for the almighty dollar.  On the other hand, no book or movie would see the light of day in the 1960s-1980s unless it portrayed the US or GIs as bad, sadistic, psycho killers, Hollywierd being what it is.

I'll have to ask the C/227 guys to gather their thoughts while we're still in our right minds, and see about some kind of compilation.

Hollywood drives me nuts though.  Recently there was a flop about WWI, loosely on the Lafayette Escadrille.  It could have been a true, straight from life story about them with no BS, no lies.  It WAS a colorful outfit with colorful characters - there was absolutely no need to go with total fiction.  It could have been 95% true story and been great.  And people generally believe whatever they see in the movies as being true, too!

Everyone's heard the quote about learning from history but then we refuse to study or learn the real history and keep on repeating the same mistakes.  We had many 'lessons learned' from WWII, Korea, Malaysia, Algeria, Nam... but keep letting the politicians run and ruin everything.

If you have sons gents, keep them out of harm's way.  If they must go in the service, let it be behind a computer console where there's an equivelant civilian job that pays six figure incomes. 

Howie

Just going back to that M60 ammo box thread at the top of the page, there is a coloured plate in the Osprey book The Marine Corp in Vietnam which has a pic of it, described in the text as..."an assault pack of 100 rounds of 7.62mm belted ammunition...issued in a cardboardbox and cloth bandolier and carried two per metal ammunition container or ammo can". The pic is identicle to the pic Ray posted in his thread.

Rich

I served from 92-2000. I had one gunner when I was weapons squad leader with the 25th infantry division who used the bags attached to the pig in this way. They would come in a cardboard box with this bag, the box top was ripped off, the box was kept in the bag along with the ammo laid in nicely to feed properly. I only saw it done infrequently and he literally tied the bag to feeder which is what we called it (Not to be confused with the feed tray). This was to prevent the ammunition from dragging in the dirt or beating the hell out of you during 3-5 second rushes, which yes, even gunners have to do when they arent in an overwatch position. Nothing like watching someone go a$$ over t!t because they stepped on their ammo belt and buried their M60 barrel first into the dirt.

The early APH5 helmets came white for high visibility. My father said besides painting them they also taped them with colored tape to reduce the visibility. Later versions, including the APH5 were manufactured in OD. Not only did they have to turn these items in before rotating to the world they got hassled on appearance, meaning they werent always allowed to return with their handle bar Cav moustaches or pocket patches on their Nomex. I collect only US Army Aviation Vietnam items. I have quite a few pockets patches. nomex tops and bottoms and other items myself. I am still missing my C Co 227th which was my fathers unit. Hard to find.

[img]http://

Well, I think I can FINALLY put this M60 thing to bed.  The irony is that the answer to my question (what was removed from the M60 that was replaced with a C-ration can?)was staring right at me on this thread the whole time.  I showed this thread to my dad the other day and he saw this pic posted by Skypirate:

[img]http://

He said the metal belt guide you see in this photo is the stock part that was replaced with a C-ration can.  Thank you mister gunner for holding that gun upside down! 

To really finish this story off, here is a Vietnam era M60A1 (courtesy of Army Aviation Museum) showing the attachment points for the C-ration can (it is exactly what Andrew posted way up there so long ago):

[img]http://

Also, this is a great shot of the Monkey Belt.

Here is the pic of the newer M60E1 showing where the attachment points have been moved to:

[img]http://

Now I finally know what was replaced and what was changed.  Thanks, Andrew, for keeping me honest!

Ray 

Snake36Bravo,

Thanks for the info on the helmets, i didnt realise the white ones were used for high vis, it also explains the reasoning behind the red ones ive seen in some of the old photos. High vis helmets made sense and would probably of seemed like a good idea in the event of a downed helicopter crew, until Vietnam, But the use of helicopters in combat was a new concept and i suppose lessons had to be learnt in the field. Things that cost money to change, dont tend to get changed without good reason, so it kinda points to the fact that some of those lessons must have been learnt the hard way. It just seems such a shame that there are possibly a few names on the wall in Washington that otherwise would not have been there if not for an oversite by the air mobility "experts" on the color of the helmets that were ironicly provided to help keep them alive.

Im no military big wig, but in a jungle environment an olive drab helmet seems kind of obvious to me lol. Its a bit strange that Olive drab clothes were provided to crews as standard for camo reasons!! but a big white or red helmet was provided for high vis lol!

If i only wanted one part of my uniform to be used for high visibility purposes in the event of needing to be rescued from a hostile environment, Im damn sure it wouldn't be the part that sat on my head .

Anyway it cleared up for me why alot of the pictures ive seen from 65 show white helmets.

Does anyone know if everyone was issued white helmets in 65 or if they were used by the Air Cav during the Ia drang campaign and when the change to OD took place? I know from photos that OD helmets were in use in the Air Cav by Jan/Feb 66 along with the M23 mounts for the door gunners.

Ive also found it interesting that for some reason alot of Medevac crews along with Marine and Navy Crews were still using the white helmets long after the Army were using olive drab! does anyone know why???

Andy 

Update.

Apart from responding to posts, I have tried to leave this thread alone for a while due to its size, But it seems to have taken on a life of its own, . With the amount of interest in the Vietnam Huey thread and the new posts that always seem to appear it seems that readers are not put off by the length of the thread (which i am sure would take well over an hour to read by now) it just goes to show the popularity of the huey. This thread covers so many aspects of the huey and with the fantastic contributions from the Veterans and historians, its no surprise that the information contained in here is so popular.

At some point i should probably think about including an index on the first page lol to help guide modelers to the section they are looking for.

For anyone reading this thread for the first time make sure you check out Ray's (Rotorwash) excellent thread "Unusual Vietnam Hueys" it contains all the information you could hope to find on unusual armament systems. It is a fantastic and informative thread and a great source of pictures and info on the unusual and experimental side of the US Army's use of the huey helicopter. This great thread can be found here...

/forums/767176/ShowPost.aspx

Also Please check out Mel's (Melgyver's) UH-1C. Main Rotor Head Detail Thread,.

An extremly detailed, well thought out and informative thread, That will help anyone to correct the MR system on the MRC/Academy UH-1C. If that wasnt enough "Mel" has also made a seperate thread dealing with the main rotor system for the UH-1B/D/F/P/H model hueys!! Aimed at anyone building the Panda/Revell, UH-1D/H helicopters. An invaluable source of info for any huey modeler, please check them out.

UH-1C      /forums/785871/ShowPost.aspx

UH-1D/H   /forums/785884/ShowPost.aspx

For inspiration on building a huey model, two of the best you are ever likely to see and in my opinion set the benchmark for the rest of us, are..

Gino's (HeavyArty's) Medevac, Panda build, the only medevac build ive seen which includes a Forest/jungle penetrator, the detail is fantastic. The pictures, advice and generosity from Gino has been a major help to me in my modeling. A picture of this model and links to other pictures of this huey build can be found here. 

/forums/743469/ShowPost.aspx

Last but not least, without doubt the best UH-1C Gunship build i have ever seen, by a guy that has modeling skills that i would give my right arm for. I can only speak for myself as a relative newbie to helicopter modeling, but im sure everyone on here would agree with me, that his attention to detail on his helicopters is fantastic

Andy's (Intruder_Bass) UH-1C "Mustang 6" build.

/forums/742588/ShowPost.aspx

As interest in this thread is still popular i will carry on posting anything i find that i think may be of interest to any huey modelers out there.

I found this link on the Robert mason site (of Chickenhawk fame) and although its not realy relevent to Vietnam era hueys its still a worthwhile addition to the thread for any huey modeler as you can zoom into any of the control panel dials you choose and have a good look around the interior of a huey in 3D with a click of the mouse button. Great fun and lots of help for anyone interested in and looking for (position of overhead lights or any of the control panel detail)  Click on the + tab to zoom in and the - tab to zoom out and use the mouse to scroll left, right,up and down.

http://www.nasm.si.edu/interact/qtvr/uhc/images/hueyB.mov

Hope this comes in handy for someone.

Ive also got a bizzare Comic style huey maintenance pamphlet that covers everything from checking for loose nuts to tips on securing the sound proof padding, i cant remember for the life of me where i got it but its well worth a look. plus the original M23 M60D Instruction booklet if anyones interested, let me know and il post them on here.

Andy.

PS. for anyone new to building hueys dont forget to check out the cobra companys after market offerings, everything from M60d's for your slick to Quad 60s for your gunship, you can even convert your UH-1C to a UH-1B! courtesy of Chris at ...

 http://www.cobracompany.com/

I spoke with my father yesterday who flew two tours. It was interesting because he mentioned the 'common sense' approach early on was actually hard learned. Things like arming the helicopters developed...because no one seemed to worry about the fact that people would be shooting at them when they came in to drop off troops. He also mentioned the running deployment of troops was so that the Huey never entered 'Ground Effect' and they could unass the area quick. Also, in Vietnam the underpowered early models had a tendency to experience 'Density Air' where it took a while, especially under load, to get enough power to leave 'ground effect' and take off. That is why you sometimes see Hueys looking like they are bunny hopping on take off or dragging their noses. (The low raked skids were done away with because of this) In his words, 'Flying out of Pleiku, An Khe and Dak To is like flying out of Denver, CO.'

He was there when CAV was still 11th Air Assault. He spoke of the fact that a lot of armament on Huey's was thought up by creative CE "Crew Chiefs" and pilots. Early on he had a Thompson that he knocked the stock off to use inside the aircraft. Some guys carried M1 carbines. He also spoke of the OH13, the early observation helicopter, and how some enterprising soul who was tired of being shot out took two Browning .30 cal machine guns and fixed them to the skids with Radiator clamps and rigged them up to be fired from the cockpit. This started many things rolling. The free hanging 60s were replaced when someone welded up the pintle mount system which was later adopted as the XM23 door gun.

I will ask him about the prolonged use of high visibility helmets in Medevacs units. He flew Medevac missions into Pleiku and I think he mentioned putting down an area right next to Graves Registration. I'll also take a look at my '66 dated APH5. It is OD.

By the way, there are some pictures posted here of the SPH4 flight helmet with High Visibility reflector tape. This was done towards the very end of Vietnam or just after, accounts vary. A double edged sword, spot them on the ground easy for recovery or fly over them and leave them because you cant see them.

Andy,

Thanks for the "plug" for my two threads on the Huey Rotor Heads.  Yes indeed there is still a lot on interest in the "old" Huey!  Best darn chopper I've ever crewed and got "stick" time in! 

Andy

thanks for putting all that together to make it easier for us to find a lot of those Huey posts.  That's the first time I saw Gino's Medevac - fantastic job!  Mel, nice detail photos and yep, that Revell model is a 'tad' better than what Revell gives you!!

Andy wrote: "Ive also found it interesting that for some reason alot of Medevac crews along with Marine and Navy Crews were still using the white helmets long after the Army were using olive drab! does anyone know why???"

To reply to Andy and add to what Snake36Bravo has already said, I don't know but we used to ‘joke' that the Marines got everyone's leftovers, and were the last to get the latest developments.  I wouldn't be surprised if that's why they had white helmets for the longest time.  I don't know why the Navy or Medevacs would, aside from Medevacs thinking the enemy might observe Geneva Conv. and not shoot at medics - yeah, right.  And USN was one step above the USMC in some supply chains...  I was a modeler before going to Nam so I painted my personal insignia on my OD helmet and nobody bothered me about it.  They must have figured ‘if he's stupid enough to draw attention to his head, they won't shoot at us!'

BTW speaking of stupid, we didn't have/use Monkey harnesses/belts either so you'd be correct not securing your gunner or CE.

Got a question:  is the new Dragon Huey the Panda kit, with the previous DML crew figures?  If so, I'm not upset about it, but a little disappointed that they didn't go all out for a new tooling, new set the bar, state of the art, definitive UH-1D model...

Lastly, this post:  anybody going to the IPMS Nat's in Anaheim?  Be nice to see some of these Hueys live, in person!  Not to mention you modelers!

Actually, THIS is last:  Clear right,

Howie

Just found this thread after searching for something related.

 I am a big helo modeller with specific vietnam era interest.  I've just finished my Academy UH-1C and thought the group would like to see it.  Thanks to the 174th AHC website (including Mel who I see is listed in the post) for providing me with a lot of info on 'Ace of Spades'.

Thanks for the great post.

 Simon