On page 15 there is some info about door gunners using magazines on their M60's, i still havnt come across any shots of the "D" shaped magazine being used. Most gunship M60 photos are the usual "C-Rat Can" type, so i thought i would throw up some more unusual pictures.

Lastly, this one is quite interesting as it shows a mounted M60 with some type of shield on the right instead of a spent brass bag on the right. And on the left im not sure whats going on! either another shield, a belt or a magazine?

Andy 

Ok guys, I've got a mission for ya.

I'm looking for information on UH-1D 65-09712.  I've got the VHPA/Goldbook entry on it and it says that it was shot down and recovered on 2 Feb 67.  There is NO other information on it with regards to crew, units, etc., only that it was a "Loss to Theater".  I ask because this very same helicopter is now sitting at Fort Indiantown Gap with two other Hueys in the "boneyard".  Looks like it could be brought back to flyable condition pretty quickly though.  Its last home was with the NY Guard before being sent out to EAATS and then set off to the side.  This one looks like it is possibly a fairly historic aircraft.

Thanks in advance!

Jon
 

Jon,

  Holy crap, where's my witching stick!  You don't ask for much do ya!

          Ray

Jon

sorry I can't help you with your inquiry, but would your VHPA/Goldbook have an entry on my  UH-1H no. 67-16642 letting me know what happened to her?  If not, any suggestions where I can look to find out?

Howie

Howie,

  67-16642 was an OH-6A according to the USAF serial numbers page Chief Snake gave me: http://home.att.net/~jbaugher/usafserials.html

Great to see you back in the forums! I assume you meant 66-16642.  Jon may be able to give you more recent data, but here is the Gold Book data I have for your bird.  As you can see, if this is your bird, she made it back in one piece. The last info I have is from 1975.

      Ray
 

Helicopter UH-1H 66-16642

While on a maintenance test flight, the aircraft was put into an autorotation to check the autorotation RPM. The pilot attempted a power recovery from the autorotation but the engine failed to respond. The autorotation was continued to touch down in a rice paddy

This record was last updated on 04/13/97

Information on U.S. Army helicopter UH-1H tail number 66-16642
The Army purchased this helicopter 0767
Total flight hours at this point: 00001604
Date: 07/06/69
Accident case number: 690706051
Unit: 388 TC CO
The station for this helicopter was Dong Tam in
Number killed in accident = 0 . . Injured = 0 . . Passengers = 0
costing 500
Source(s) from which the incident was created or updated: Army Aviation Safety Center database.

Crew Members:
AC W1 GARBER DW

Accident Summary:

WHILE HOVERING AT POL AREA AC WAS CLEARED BY CE & G TO LND ACFT LND ON TOP OF SMALL FIRE EXTING WHICH CAUSED SKIN DAM \

The following is Goldbook information on US Army helicopter UH-1H tail number 66-16642
It is provided here as an ESTIMATE of the history of this helicopter and is not intended to be the final authority.
This helicopter was purchased by the US Army in 0767.
Please provide any additional information on this helicopter to the VHPA.

DATE  FLT HRS    UIC      UNIT          AREA          POST          COUNTRY
6707   0    0 W0Y6AA INTRANSIT        IN TRANSIT                  AVCOMCTR
6708  89   89 WAAXA0 COA 229ABAH1CAV  VIETNAM                     RVN
6709 127  216 WAAXA0 COA 229ABAH1CAV  VIETNAM                     RVN
6710  75  291 WAAXA0 COA 229ABAH1CAV  VIETNAM                     RVN
6711 106  397 WAAXA0 COA 229ABAH1CAV  VIETNAM                     RVN
6712 139  536 WAAXA0 COA 229ABAH1CAV  VIETNAM                     RVN
6801  49  585 3261   355 AVN CO       4TH ARMY   FORT SILL        4TH ARMY
6802  87  672 WAAXA0 COA 229ABAH1CAV  VIETNAM                     RVN
6803  37  709 3261   355 AVN CO       4TH ARMY   FORT SILL        4TH ARMY
6804  65  774 3261   BELL HCPTR       BAILMENT   FT WORTH         AVCOM
6805   0  774 WC5GAA 610 TRANS CO     VIETNAM                     RVN
6806   0  774 WC5GAA 610 TRANS CO     VIETNAM                     RVN
6807   0  774 W0Y6AA OS TO CONUS      ITR CONUS                   AVCOMITR
6808   0  774 W0MUAA ARADMAC          IN STORAGE NAVAL AIR STN    AVCOM
6809   0  774 W0MUAA ARADMAC          IN MAINT   NAVAL AIR STN    AVCOM
6810   2  776 W0MUAA ARADMAC          4TH ARMY   NAVAL AIR STA    AVCOM
6811  22  798 WDFWA0 COA 9AVBN 9INF   VIETNAM                     RVN
6812 153  951 WDFWA0 COA 9AVBN 9INF   VIETNAM                     RVN
6901 115 1066 WDFWA0 COA 9AVBN 9INF   VIETNAM                     RVN
6902 157 1223 WDFWA0 COA 9AVBN 9INF   VIETNAM                     RVN
6903 166 1389 WDFWA0 COA 9AVBN 9INF   VIETNAM                     RVN
6904  39 1428 WDFWA0 COA 9AVBN 9INF   VIETNAM                     RVN
6905  80 1508 WDFWA0 COA 9AVBN 9INF   VIETNAM                     RVN
6906  84 1592 WDFWA0 COA 9AVBN 9INF   VIETNAM                     RVN
6907  12 1604 WCLSAA 388 TRANS CO     VIETNAM                     RVN
6908   0 1604 WCLSAA 388 TRANS CO     VIETNAM                     RVN
6909  78 1682 WAAVC0 COC 227ABAH1CAV  VIETNAM                     RVN
6910  65 1747 WAAVC0 COC 227ABAH1CAV  VIETNAM                     RVN
6911  65 1812 WAAVC0 COC 227ABAH1CAV  VIETNAM                     RVN
6912  83 1895 WAAVC0 COC 227ABAH1CAV  VIETNAM                     RVN
7001 119 2014 WAAVC0 COC 227ABAH1CAV  VIETNAM                     RVN
7002 102 2116 WAAVC0 COC 227ABAH1CAV  VIETNAM                     RVN
7003 100 2216 WAAVC0 COC 227ABAH1CAV  VIETNAM                     RVN
7004 137 2353 WAAVC0 COC 227ABAH1CAV  VIETNAM                     RVN
7005 115 2468 WAAVC0 COC 227ABAH1CAV  VIETNAM                     RVN
7006  78 2546 WAAVC0 COC 227ABAH1CAV  VIETNAM                     RVN
7007 112 2658 WAAVC0 COC 227ABAH1CAV  VIETNAM                     RVN
7008 125 2783 WAAVC0 COC 227ABAH1CAV  VIETNAM                     RVN
7009 128 2911 WAAVC0 COC 227ABAH1CAV  VIETNAM                     RVN
7010 109 3020 WAAVC0 COC 227ABAH1CAV  VIETNAM                     RVN
7011  75 3095 WAAVC0 COC 227ABAH1CAV  VIETNAM                     RVN
7012  15 3110 WAAVC0 COC 227ABAH1CAV  VIETNAM                     RVN
7101  81 3191 WAAVC0 C 227TH BN       VIETNAM                     RVN
7102  56 3247 WAAVC0 C 227TH BN       VIETNAM                     RVN
7103  96 3343 WAAVC0 C 227TH BN       VIETNAM                     RVN
7104  90 3433 WAAVC0 C 227TH BN       VIETNAM                     RVN
7105  63 3496 WAAVC0 C 227TH BN       VIETNAM                     RVN
7106  63 3559 WAAVC0 C 227TH BN       VIETNAM                     RVN
7107  50 3609 WAAVC0 227 AHC C CO     VIETNAM                     RVN
7108  89 3698 WAAVC0 227 AHC C CO     VIETNAM                     RVN
7109  69 3767 WAAVC0 227 AHC C CO     VIETNAM                     RVN
7110  57 3824 WAAVC0 60 AHC           VIETNAM                     RVN
7111  78 3902 WAAVC0 60 AHC           VIETNAM                     RVN
7112  46 3948 WAAVC0 60 AHC           VIETNAM                     RVN
7201  95 4043 WAYHAA 60 AHC           VIETNAM                     RVN
7202   0 4043 WAYHAA 60 AHC           VIETNAM                     RVN
7203   0 4043 W0Y6AA OS TO CONUS      ITR CONUS                   AVSCOM
7204   0 4043 W0Y6AA OS TO CONUS      ITR CONUS                   AVSCOM
7205   0 4043 W0Y6AA OS TO CONUS      ITR CONUS                   AVSCOM
7206   0 4043 W0Y6AA OS TO CONUS      ITR CONUS                   AVSCOM
7207   4 4047 W0Y6AA ARADMAC          IN MAINT   NAVAL AIR STN    AVSCOM
7208  28 4075 WDFUFF 9TH INF DIV      6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       6TH ARMY
7209  35 4110 WDFUFF 9TH INF DIV      6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       6TH ARMY
7210  31 4141 WDFUFF 9TH INF DIV      6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       6TH ARMY
7211   2 4143 WDFUFF 9TH INF DIV      6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       6TH ARMY
7212   1 4144 WDFUFF 9TH INF DIV      6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       6TH ARMY
7301  28 4172 WDFUFF 9TH INF DIV      6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       6TH ARMY
7302  28 4200 WDFUFF 9TH INF DIV      6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       6TH ARMY
7303  69 4269 WDFUFF 9TH INF DIV      6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       6TH ARMY
7304  25 4294 WDFUFF 9TH INF DIV      6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       6TH ARMY
7305  28 4322 WDFUFF 9TH INF DIV      6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       6TH ARMY
7306  19 4341 WDFUFF 9TH INF DIV      6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       6TH ARMY
7307  11 4352 WDFUFF 9TH DIV          6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       FORSCOM
7308   7 4359 WDFUFF 9TH DIV          6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       FORSCOM
7309   9 4368 WDFUFF 9TH DIV          6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       FORSCOM
7310  17 4385 WDFUFF 9TH DIV          6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       FORSCOM
7311  26 4411 WDFUFF 9TH DIV          6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       FORSCOM
7312  21 4432 WDFUFF 9TH DIV          6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       FORSCOM
7401  13 4445 WDFUFF 9TH DIV          6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       FORSCOM
7402  14 4459 WDFUFF 9TH DIV          6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       FORSCOM
7403  13 4472 WDFUFF 9TH INF DIV      6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       FORSCOM
7404  12 4484 WDFUFF 9TH INF DIV      6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       FORSCOM
7405  27 4511 WDFUFF 9TH INF DIV      6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       FORSCOM
7409   0 4558 W12K01 9TH INF DIV      6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       FORSCOM
7410   0 4558 W12K01 SUPPLY DIV       6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       FORSCOM
7411   0 4558 W12K01 SUPPLY DIV       6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       FORSCOM
7412   0 4558 W12K01 SUPPLY DIV       6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       FORSCOM
7501   3 4561 W12K02 SUPPLY DIV       6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       FORSCOM
7502   0 4561 W12K02 SUPPLY DIV       6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       FORSCOM
7503   0 4561 W12K02 SUPPLY DIV       6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       FORSCOM
7504   0 4561 W12K02 SUPPLY DIV       6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       FORSCOM
7505   9 4570 W12K02 SUPPLY DIV       6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       FORSCOM
7506   6 4576 W12K02 SUPPLY DIV       6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       FORSCOM
7507   1 4577 W12K02 SUPPLY DIV       6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       FORSCOM
7509   0 4581 W12K02 SUPPLY DIV       6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       FORSCOM
7510   0 4581 W12K02 SUPPLY DIV       6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       FORSCOM
7511   0 4581 W12K02 SUPPLY DIV       6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       FORSCOM
7512   0 4581 W12K02 SUPPLY DIV       6TH ARMY   FORT LEWIS       FORSCOM

Hi,

   Huey 1c M60 machine guns weren,t mounted as such but were slung from the doorway surround on strong fabric or leather strap or sling.This I obsreved in the Squadron/Signal book on this type of helicopter.

                                  Moxey.

Moxey,

  While M60A's were slung from bungee cords, they were also mounted on sagami mounts, unit specific swinging mounts attached to the M156 universal mount (238 AWC), and shot freehand with no restraint. CHeck out the pics below:

M60 on a bungee:

[img]http://

Free gunning:

[img]http://

Sagami mount:

[img]http://

238 AWC unique mounting system:

[img]http://
 

There may even be more that I haven't mentioned.  Vietnam was a complicated war and airmobility was in it's infancy.  Almost nothing was sacred and MANY things were tried.  The one thing I have learned is NEVER say NEVER with regards to Vietnam and the inginuity of those who fought there.

  Ray
 

Excellent photos Ray, and I absolutely 'second' that about 'never say never.'  I'm sure that applies to just about every war!  The VN war was totally different from one war zone to another at the exact same time.  As it was the same base, different times!  When you think in terms of say, WWII, that's not surprising.  The Italian theatre with its mountains and valleys was different than NW Europe... much less the Pacific theatre! 

Glad to see my Nevada Gambler (or whatever she was renamed) made it home.  Thanks for that info and correcting the serial.  Now I have to keep an eye open and see if I run into her!

I've been keeping an eye on the forum but you guys 'have forgotten more than I ever knew,' so I try not to pipe up unless I've really got something to add!  Thanks again,

Howie

BTW

for a modeling 'note,' if you guys noticed the last of Ray's photos, of a/c no. 238 - the O.D. paint on the bottom of the door is a different OD than the rest of the gunship.  A previous number or insignia was oversprayed, then the 238 added.  Note also the kill markings, and the window in the door has been slid halfway down (a nice touch for your model).

On the photo above it you can see a totally different shade of OD thru the glass window than on the rest of that gunship (and is that a 'sling' on the M-60, to help carry it when discmounted?).  This isn't necessarily the case here - but aside from 'patches' to cover damage and bullet holes, often an entire panel or a door may have been replaced on a ship with a different shade of OD. I don't know of a man alive who stood there with a paint chip and tried to match it up!  When you see a window or chin bubble outlined with a white-ish cream color, that was the bare fiberglass - that window,etc is a replacement.

I noticed in this set of photos too, that in the earlier VN war years the M-60 generally still had the infantry butt stock.  Mid and later years you generally saw the aviator spade grips on it.

Howie   

Kris,

  check the first page of this thread for a list of most of my refs including "Huey" along with my assessment of each as a ref.  the short answer is YES, it's a great ref for VN Huey stuff with a special section on Huey INFANT system. It's 63 pages long with seven pages of color. Good luck!

    Ray

Thanks Ray,

I'll get Airmobile by Jim Mesko too.

How come I keep seeing his name in most of the 'Nam pubs? I don't read the author bios. I just like all the pretty pictures

i got the 204 yesterday and opened it up. all good. now I have to see if Italeri's going to reply with my "missing" parts.

skypirate1 wrote:

Lastly, this one is quite interesting as it shows a mounted M60 with some type of shield on the right instead of a spent brass bag on the right. And on the left im not sure whats going on! either another shield, a belt or a magazine? Andy

I am not positive, Andy. But, it appears to be an improvised brass deflector. Although it appears to be below the ejection port. That may be the angle of the picture.

I never did understand the reason for having a spent brass bag on them anyway. It's not like they took it back and reloaded it. Maybe someone can clarify this for me.  

Randie,

  The Brass bag kept spent brass out of the tail rotor.  FOD is BAD!

        Ray

PS: Perhaps Mel or Grandad can give more insight into the use of these safety devices! 

Never even thought of that. Makes sense, now.

My son has told me they call those black, government issued ink pens........ 99 cent missiles, out on the flight line! 

Well, here's an interesting shot.  Nothing out of the ordinary on this one. Its a standard UH-1D, but take a look at the markings.  This pic was taken in the Spring of 1965, IIRC at Ft. Benning, GA and it shows either UH-1D 63-08778 or 63-08781 (can't really tell, but with the numbers I can make out, those are the only two it could be) from A/229th AHB, 11th Air Assault Division.  It is a large file, but both Photobucket and the forum are limiting its size, so the resolution isn't the greatest. 

Jon,

Great shot! Dont often see photos with the markings still on the jump doors. I dont have any info on 63-08781 but heres a pic of 63-08778 ("Yellow Two" in the photo, next to Bruce Crandalls "Ancient Serpent 6")  Its one of my favorite 229th AHB shots, taken in Jan/Feb 1966 at Bong Son, during the start of Operation Masher/White wing.

778 sadly crashed a year later on 2 April 67 resulting in the death of the 20 year old door gunner.

The only other thing that might help in identifying the huey in your pic, could be the White blade antenna. Ive seen quite a few shots of 229 birds serving in the same companies from 65/66 that had the White blade along with ships that had the OD blade In the pic i posted ,778 has OD. So either it was painted or replaced, or (Probably more likely) its a shot of 63-08781.

EDIT.. the blade antenna in the pic are BLACK and not OD as i stated and were not allowed to be painted. (thanks grandad). So the blade was either replaced or its a photo of 63-08781.

Andy.

Randie,

From what i can gather so far, it appears that spent shell bags and deflectors were used on different ships for different reasons.

The main reason the 1st Air Cav "Slick" Companies used bags was to stop shells flying back into the crew compartment, causing a mess and creating a slip hazard for the troops being inserted. It was also pretty common for the odd HOT shell to find a home nestling in between the helmet and shirt collar of a very unhappy and preoccupied pilot! Tail Rotor damage wasnt really much of an issue! thats why they only usually had the bags attached to the LEFT side M60 (as the 229th AHB picture i posted above shows).

It was a different story for the Gunship Companies. Most didnt have mounted M60s, so the gunners could lean out and fire from all angles. Also unlike the slicks, the gunships would dive in on a target and the danger was, when they would break off, they would pull up hard and the tail rotor would suddenly be in the direct line of spent door gun shells and thats how the majority of TR's were torn up! It wasnt to bad though, 9 times out of 10 it was just a case of replacing the Rotor. Although this would get the "Tops" a bit miffed as some companies were getting through quite a few tail rotors and orders started coming down for gunners to hold their M60s upside down and on a unit level to make some kind of deflector or screen for the guns (probably like the one in the picture). They didnt last long though, as the screens created drag, which slowed the helicopters down and caused extra strain. So most were binned.

The pilots were also told to "Be gentle with the helicopter" and to "Quit breaking off from the target so violent" !! To avoid spent brass TR damage, which obviously didnt go down very well as it would mean putting the helicopters and crews at greater risk of getting hit.

Anyway i hope that helps.

Andy 

Andy,

  I get what your saying, but the argument could also be made that the left guns had the brass bags because the tail rotor was on the left side!  That's what I was laways led to believe anyhow.

     Ray

Ray,

Im just going on what ive heard from the 1st Cav Crew guys, though like you say its also possible that on a higher level the reasoning for the left side bag was due to the position of the tail rotor. Though its also worth considering that the left side M60 "ejection port" faced away from the TR and towards the Crew compartment unlike the right side gun, also, as far as i know, the "Slick" door gunners would only usually be allowed to fire on the first initial approach into an LZ at which point they would be on short final, descending and not flying fast enough for spent brass ejected from the right side of the left gun to fly back and towards the tail rotor. Though i could be wrong. 

If the TR was the main reason behind the bags on slicks,it seems strange that the right side gun was not fitted with them, as the "ejection port" on the right faces the TR direction and shells could fly back and over the tail boom. I suppose it all depends on who tells you what and so far the info ive been given all points away from TR damage as the main reason for the left side bags. Though that doesnt by any means mean im right or that the info i have is right, it just means that as ever there are conflicting accounts of what was going on or why, in Vietnam, which isnt really a surprise. Anyway its all trivial but interesting .

Grandad,

Well that rules out 778's blade being re-painted . I have no idea what the colour of the blades were, i always presumed (though i shouldnt) that those that were not white were OD but on closer inspection the blades in the photo look black, so thanks for that . You have saved me from a modelling boo boo, as i would have probably painted mine OD (ive gone back and corrected the post with the info you gave me).

I see from all the Huey threads I'm going to have to get pickier on the kits I buy. Actually, I feel closer to just giving up before I start.

I love Hueys. I made my first Huey when I was about 6 or 7, and it was a bad kit - I still remember the left half of the fuselage had the nose bent down below the windshield so I couldn't even finish it half decent (of course these days I could fix that with some heat and putty.

Before today I was looking forward to making my 1/24 Monogram Huey, and thought it was a good kit with good detail. Now, I understand that is it a bad kit with bad detail and scale. Even that new Dragon Huey, which I thought was an utterly awesome model - well, third party patch kits are already out for it to fix up inaccuracies on stuff I have no idea what they really people are talking about. I sort of believe in only doing something if I can do a good job. Now I'm not sure I can. And now that if I'm going to have to buy $70 worth of patches from Eduard for the MRC Huey "Frog" to be able to gain a good level of accuracy and detail, I'm starting to feel like dumping these kits in the bin.

I'm thinking I'll just stick to sci fi kits. Something not based in reality where I'm not going to have to worry so much about "fuel pump on the wrong side", or gearbox wrong, or the like...

I really am feeling somewhat overwhelmed, dejected, and lost at where to start...

HeavyArty wrote:

You shouldn't really be discouraged.  Most of the things that the AM and PE sets correct are not really huge inaccuracies.  Most of them would only be caught by a crew chief or us rivet counters.  You can make some very nice Huey kits straight out of the box on most of them.  Add a few scratch-built items and you can have a really great looking model.  Remember, you only need to build for yourself, not others.  If you are happy with it, it is great.

Thanks for the advise. I've still feel utterly devestated. Especially after seeing that magnificent Huey "Mustang"...

The photo etched instrument panels are something I really will take as a minimum from now though. Since I restarted with modelling again, I've tried painting instrument panels, and I still stink... That and etched panel lines vs the old style raised panel lines. That is one reason I'm dumping (or just using for practice) the old hasagewa and monogram kits I have.

For the Huey "Frog" model I'll probably pick up the Eduard interior PE kit. For the Monogram 24th Huey, it's fate is undecided... I might park it another 5 years.

Gino is so right!  I have gotten bogged dowm in the details, but I wish I had built a few beforehand just for fun.  Besides, just call it a NOSTALGIC BUILD and have FUN!  That's what this hobby is supposed to be about in the first place.  The world can't have enough Huey models!

   Ray
 

I'll third that!  While we sit here and debate the minutae of Huey details (this panel needs to be fixed, those rivets are too big, that Huey didn't fly with that armament system) we often lose sight of the fact that we're pretty lucky that the Huey kits out there are pretty good and pretty accurate.  The MRC kits are some of the best models straight out of the box.  Sure there's aftermarket stuff, but don't take those as absolutely necessary in order to build a decent model!  As Gino said, build for yourself!  This is supposed to be fun!

I know that I have begun to suffer from severe AMS (Advanced Modelers Syndrome) and often have difficulty just building a model straight out of the box.  As for Andy's "Mustang 6", well... AMS has become an art form in its own right with him!  I just nod, pick my jaw up off the floor and wish I could do something somewhere close to his magic.  

DON'T BE DISCOURAGED!  BUILD THOSE HUEYS!

(and don't be afraid to toss in some resin too! ;) )

Jon
 

Andy,

   Just got off the phone with my dad and asked about brass in the cockpit.  He told me that it was not unhear of for a little hot brass to find it's way down the neck of particularly ornary pilots!  In a gunship with a free gun all it took was a little "creative positioning" of the gun to get brass to go just about anywhere.  Any of you other guys heard of this?  anyway, I thought you might get a kick out of the story.

     Ray