Alley project WIP (Some pics of the finished box dio)

Hi Vespa Boy,

First of all I want you to know I think you are a fantastic modeler and have attention to detail skills that are very impressive.

I do though think you are not well served with your attitude toward figures.  It is just my opinion of course but I do not believe it is possible to fully tell a story without them it is like handing a book written in Braille to a sighted person that happens to be able to "read" braille.  He might be able to struggle through it but I think it would be quite difficult to get the full intent of the author.  To be honest I glanced at this once but because there was no reference for me I nodded my head and clicked on.  I only came back because people I respect told me to take another look.  I am like that with vehicles as well.  The majority of the people on the forum are very skilled and I can only look at so many tanks before it's just a blur of images, but put a figure there doing something and I pause and try to figure out the reference.  I believe figures add scale and impact and with your skills you could be a real force with figures it would complete your "Tapestry of Detail"!  As it is it will be an unfinished Novel!

Again my friend just my impressions and comments to another artist please take them in the spirit that they are offered to comment you on your fine work and to provide encouragement for you to stretch yourself a little.

If I came across as a pompous Back end of a Mule I sincerely apologize! 

Your Art is Spectacular and it is your Art after all!

Hi Schnobs,

Thanks for your thoughts about figures. I agree that figures are useful for a diorama that has a narrative at its core. And I do understand that most people want and need figures for a diorama to work for them.

What I have been doing is making a record  of things that I see as I travel around...Some people do drawings of a place, I have been making 3d models/scenes. , I use the diorama forum as I think it is the nearest to what I do even though the general concensus is that they are not dioramas.

For example, I looked at fire-escapes in Chicago for weeks and never saw anyone on them, so I am modliing something in its natural state as I experienced it. We all know they are built to save lives, and they often get used for other purposes, especially in Summer. It would be much more exciting to see a bunch of people marching down the stairs, but the day to day reality is that they don't get used (and that is a good thing...we don't want building burning down all the time). The other thing is that its boring being in your hotel room looking out the window, and I wanted to convey that feeling as well.

But also it reflects my own personal interest. Even though I like all kinds of art, I end up looking at abstract art and find it much more intesting than figurative painting on a personal level (and there are of course exceptions to that).

I didn't take your thoughts as as the pompous thoughts of an @$$'s @$$!!! I appreciate them and thanks for sharing.

Excellent and thank you you for the well thought out response I appreciate it my friend.  I am glad my comments were well received.

I completely understand and appreciate artistic preferences.  I had the opportunity to see a Jackson Pollock painting in the museum and felt like I could do better with ten minutes and a $2.00 watercolor set but that's me I come from the Midwest originally and art is a Duck Stamp!  If it does not look like something it isn't art. Again just my opinion and i am learning every day since I got into this Hobby to appreciate the differences and nuances of art.  I have a long way to go!

If that was my piece I would put a 1960's era CIA sniper in his best black suit white shirt with black string tie with a 250 Remington Bolt action rifle and a 10x Scope.on one of the landings and name the Dio "The Grassy Knoll" or hang spider man upside down off one of the landings.  Again just me.

You are a wonderful artist and it has been great sharing comments with you!  Keep it up!

"Igonore that man behind the curtain He is not important!"

Schnobs

 I had the opportunity to see a Jackson Pollock painting in the museum and felt like I could do better with ten minutes and a $2.00 watercolor set but that's me

I understand where you are coming from Schnobs and I really get it. It sounds like you are out to grab the viewers attention, and if you can do it that is a really good thing for your dioramas. I want to draw your attention to the little things you never stop to notice, and when there is no action to disract you, that is exactly what you are left with.  I also know that "art" is a tricky thing to get your head around. One word of advice about Jackson Pollock, or Mark Rothko or Barnet Newman, or Agnes Martin or any other non figurative artist...it may look simple, but its not. Its the extremely high skill level of the artist that deceives you into thinking that it is easy.

Its good discussing this stuff with you. Thanks

Yes you are absolutely correct.  During that same museum experience I found some bottles on  the stairs and like a good Midwesterner i threw them away which horrified the museum staff because apparently it was a Artistic Representation of Bottles on the Stairs! 

I also think Andy Warhol is a hack but as you say I am trying to learn the nuances.  My friend Adam is an artist and I like him so I guess I am half way there! 

Keep doing what you are doing it's fantastic and it looks like a building and that makes sense to me!!

First....you continue to do museum quality work.  Simply stunning!!

As far as the figure discussion, I think figures would detract from this dio. The story is in the starkness of the alley.  Maybe some paper garbage that ha blown into the corner near the vent....the bottles are great.....the inanimate objects are great......if anything.....maybe a cat!!

Rounds Complete!!

[quote user="redleg12"]

"First....you continue to do museum quality work.  Simply stunning!!"   <----- This is quite true , I agree

"As far as the figure discussion, I think figures would detract from this dio"

.I've never heard of figures "detracting from a Dio", unless they are poorly done, or ill-chosen to do the job of telling said story.  I supose if one didn't possess the skills to populate a scene well, then it may be a mistake to try to do so, or require that person to enter a new skill-building phase.

 "The story is in the starkness of the alley. "

In this case there really isn't a "story" per se---the story is a lack of a story---as Narayan explained the final outcome of this will be  to convey how boring it is looking out a typical hotel window.  {To spend the time studying a scene like this through the eyes of the artist is what this scene is.}    Narayan and I have discussed before  that what is "backround" to other scene builders is" subject" to him, particularly when carried to his level of detail. <----This I have to accept, and be grateful I have recieved any explaination at all, as most art doesn't afford us this oppertunity.

I made the suggestion of the Dark Knight figure, and appearently I touched on a connection the artist had made himself --- "Bingo"  ---I could have just as well said"Spiderman", but I like Edmund's idea of the lone gunman even better-----of course all these ideas are entirely second-hand. Ed nor I had thought up this project in the 1st place and so can't have as clear an idea what it's really meant to be as it's maker. This is quite often the case with artworks, that we never really surmise what it is the artist is expressing, we only know that there is something to it, even in the case of an art-fraud, which are as subjective as accepted art pieces often enough.    

Are Narayan's work's Dioramas? Not by the criteria givin in judging model contests. This is an entirely unimportaint distinction however---the reality of the scene is undeniable,the artist's devotion to his pursuit readily appearent, and the fact that we spend this sort of time considering these quesions may only add to the mystery of it's origins~~~~~~~~

[quote user="*INDY"]

redleg12

"First....you continue to do museum quality work.  Simply stunning!!"   <----- This is quite true , I agree

"As far as the figure discussion, I think figures would detract from this dio"

.I've never heard of figures "detracting from a Dio", unless they are poorly done, or ill-chosen to do the job of telling said story.  I supose if one didn't possess the skills to populate a scene well, then it may be a mistake to try to do so, or require that person to enter a new skill-building phase.

 "The story is in the starkness of the alley. "

In this case there really isn't a "story" per se---the story is a lack of a story---as Narayan explained the final outcome of this will be  to convey how boring it is looking out a typical hotel window.  {To spend the time studying a scene like this through the eyes of the artist is what this scene is.}    Narayan and I have discussed before  that what is "backround" to other scene builders is" subject" to him, particularly when carried to his level of detail. <----This I have to accept, and be grateful I have recieved any explaination at all, as most art doesn't afford us this oppertunity.

I made the suggestion of the Dark Knight figure, and appearently I touched on a connection the artist had made himself --- "Bingo"  ---I could have just as well said"Spiderman", but I like Edmund's idea of the lone gunman even better-----of course all these ideas are entirely second-hand. Ed nor I had thought up this project in the 1st place and so can't have as clear an idea what it's really meant to be as it's maker. This is quite often the case with artworks, that we never really surmise what it is the artist is expressing, we only know that there is something to it, even in the case of an art-fraud, which are as subjective as accepted art pieces often enough.    

Are Narayan's work's Dioramas? Not by the criteria givin in judging model contests. This is an entirely unimportaint distinction however---the reality of the scene is undeniable,the artist's devotion to his pursuit readily appearent, and the fact that we spend this sort of time considering these quesions may only add to the mystery of it's origins~~~~~~~~

You go into great detail breaking each sentence apart to discuss the art. Art is opinion....everyones will be different based on their perspective and experiences, I gave mine.

 I grew up in NYC and saw many an alley like this one....it touched an experience

The idea of the figure....it is like sitting on a deserted beach watching the waves....if someone suddenly enters the picture it detracts from the experience.....

The story......there is the story each of us want to make based on our experience....

Diorama.....who really cares what judges think. If you build for judges you are not a modeler or artist, you are an assembler and trophy hound. You cannot use the "judging" criteria for a diorama in this case. What has been created is a fantastic landscape.

Lastly.....do I understand an artist......well my daughter is one.....everyone of us who build models are trying to be one..somewhat..... but Narayan is truly an artist beyound reproach!!

Rounds COmplete!!

[quote user="redleg12"]

*INDY:

redleg12

"First....you continue to do museum quality work.  Simply stunning!!"   <----- This is quite true , I agree

"As far as the figure discussion, I think figures would detract from this dio"

.I've never heard of figures "detracting from a Dio", unless they are poorly done, or ill-chosen to do the job of telling said story.  I supose if one didn't possess the skills to populate a scene well, then it may be a mistake to try to do so, or require that person to enter a new skill-building phase.

 "The story is in the starkness of the alley. "

In this case there really isn't a "story" per se---the story is a lack of a story---as Narayan explained the final outcome of this will be  to convey how boring it is looking out a typical hotel window.  {To spend the time studying a scene like this through the eyes of the artist is what this scene is.}    Narayan and I have discussed before  that what is "backround" to other scene builders is" subject" to him, particularly when carried to his level of detail. <----This I have to accept, and be grateful I have recieved any explaination at all, as most art doesn't afford us this oppertunity.

I made the suggestion of the Dark Knight figure, and appearently I touched on a connection the artist had made himself --- "Bingo"  ---I could have just as well said"Spiderman", but I like Edmund's idea of the lone gunman even better-----of course all these ideas are entirely second-hand. Ed nor I had thought up this project in the 1st place and so can't have as clear an idea what it's really meant to be as it's maker. This is quite often the case with artworks, that we never really surmise what it is the artist is expressing, we only know that there is something to it, even in the case of an art-fraud, which are as subjective as accepted art pieces often enough.    

Are Narayan's work's Dioramas? Not by the criteria givin in judging model contests. This is an entirely unimportaint distinction however---the reality of the scene is undeniable,the artist's devotion to his pursuit readily appearent, and the fact that we spend this sort of time considering these quesions may only add to the mystery of it's origins~~~~~~~~

 

You go into great detail breaking each sentence apart to discuss the art. Art is opinion....everyones will be different based on their perspective and experiences, I gave mine.

 I grew up in NYC and saw many an alley like this one....it touched an experience

The idea of the figure....it is like sitting on a deserted beach watching the waves....if someone suddenly enters the picture it detracts from the experience.....

The story......there is the story each of us want to make based on our experience....

Diorama.....who really cares what judges think. If you build for judges you are not a modeler or artist, you are an assembler and trophy hound. You cannot use the "judging" criteria for a diorama in this case. What has been created is a fantastic landscape.

Lastly.....do I understand an artist......well my daughter is one.....everyone of us who build models are trying to be one..somewhat..... but Narayan is truly an artist beyound reproach!!

Rounds COmplete!!

A bit of a of a dissapointing response Mike....you  we're a little  hit and miss with the points, and seem to have mis-read the real spirit of my post a number of ways---obviously everyone has an opinion, and that's yours.            Art however, is NOT an opinion, Art is an expression, shared through a medium. My definition.   I challenge anybody to offer a better one. What is an opinion, is what a given art piece says to them, what it's value may be, how well the artist met his or her goals, and plenty of other subjective responses related to the work.

I stated that I get Narayan's work,  it's about his experience,   you don't need to relate your life story to give it relevance.

Obviously Mike, I broke  the 1st part of your post apart to speak to each point. This was for clear communication. If it bothers you, I can do things a different way.(There was the 1st statement that I completely agreed with!)

 Something unsaid but sermisable from my post was that by popular definition, like the criteria of contest judges,Dioramas contain figures.------- You don't do figures.Mike, you don't do dioramas. ---You build  artillery pieces with footprints on them and no crew in sight.  If that's what you want to do, fine. I could make the same suggestion to you on your post that your build would be far better with well-done figures, and in my opinion it would.  I don't bother however, because I see you have come this far as a proficient modeler without doing figures, and it's likely unacceptable for you to go back to 'square one' to learn figure painting. I'ts better to claim they don't interest you.          

As far as your statement - Quote:

"Diorama.....who really cares what judges think. If you build for judges you are not a modeler or artist, you are an assembler and trophy hound. You cannot use the "judging" criteria for a diorama in this case. What has been created is a fantastic landscape"

I don't know how that could be in response to what I said, if you understood my post. It's definately not me . I pretty much said that, so I guess you agree that much. As for the artwork in question being a "landscape", there's no land in sight. It's more a cityscape, though so special it deserves it's oun catagory or none at all. 

Mike, you are very good at what you do, as Narayan is great at what he does. I do respect you, I want you to know that, I think the subject of figures touches a nerve though,  and I want you take my commments in the spirit intended, it wasn't my idea to "reproach" anyone.

 

Indy

I think we are both in the same book but in different chapters both misunderstanding each other. I am not at all attacking the figure idea. IMO.....I do not think the dio needs figures....for me it speaks for itself.....again that is my opinion on s s *report me* fantastic dio.

Yes, I do not do figures.....one because most figures are infantry figures and do not properly show artillerymen. There are very few and I have chosen to leave them out. I also know my limitations....I generally inhale at figures and they become s s *report me* burdon more than fun to make. I some instances I will use them, but generally no.

Landscape....Cityscape.....fine, we are getting into correct terminology.

Lastly as far as the spirt....yes I understand the spirt and don't take this as an argument. No, I am not s s *report me* dio builder but appreciate s s *report me* good build. Many dio builders look at what I do and try to lean me in the direction of s s *report me* dio and figures. Not my thing....dio people concentrate on the scene and generall convey s s *report me* message. I am more of s s *report me* replica builder who uses "crude" dio items to enhance the model or with emplaced artillery, show all the required parts.

Everyone has s s *report me* different approach, just models no base, stained base, s s *report me* base to match the model environment, add figures or dios. I think everyone on the forum knows my background and can figure out why I do what I do.

My response was just to s s *report me* fantastic build which touched me and I expressed my opinion. Since I appear to touch s s *report me* nerve, I will leave this one alone.

Narayan - Sorry to hijack this thread. You are still tops in my book....outstanding work

Rounds Complete!!

The work is simply sublime...

I think it's perfect without figures--it evokes a sense of loneliness, or as somebody put it, "starkness."

Thanks everyone for all this invigourating discussion. It is amazing how strong the feelings are with dioramas. I have enjoyed reading all these comments.

What I do like is that opportunity to posy my builds here and get feedback and have sensible and civil discussions about various issues.

I should have made another quantum leap next week and will have more pics to share.

A quick update:

a small added detail...a plastic bag caught on a railing.. I couldn't get that plastic bag from American Beauty out of my head...

Here is the box dio with the front wall in place and the initial shape of a hotel room wall/window:

And a close up through the window

Some details on the hotel wall taking shape...a boxed in radiator under the window and the vertical connector closets on either side

Here are some details I made this weekend for the hotel room "portal"

A radiator from strip styrene, copper tubing, aluminium tubing and wine bottle foil:

A radiator cover from a take-out container, styrene strip to make a frame and etched brass mesh. There is a little door on the top to give access to the radiator adjustment knob, which doesn't line up...just like the real thing!

And a test fit in place:

Beautiful work indeed, Narayan; true to scale and impossible to visually discern from the real things!

This gets more interesting as we go!

Take care my friend,

Frank

I love your alley and want to mug someone in it....

Add a few minor dings and dents to the radiator and it would be easy to imagine it banging and clattering away so it ruins a good-night's sleep! We've all stayed in motel and hotel rooms with noisy radiators, dripping faucets, leaky toilets and so forth.

A quick update. I have more or less finished the hotel room window through which the viewer looks into the alley.

Here is an overall view of the window. The idea is that there is a venetian blind fully pulled up and on the right is the wand that adjusts the angle of the louvres....a cheap replacement for proper curtains

And when I hold it in place, this is the kind of view you get. I haven't made the final assenbly but it should give a sense of what to expect. It's good for me to see that there is enough light that comes from above to light the scene, which was something I was a little worried about, but apparently for no reson.

Sorry i havnt been over here on dio,s for ages, just saw this and WOW, AMAZING work, Looks real. Are you gonna add any life form to this? A black cat at least?

Outstanding Narayan

Only thing I ding you on points is taking For-Ev-er between updates

but the thing is   

Thanks Bodge and Indy.

Bodge: I am afraid that there are no figures planned for this one. There is a plastic bag caught in the railing and an empty bottle, so there is evidence of life. Its kinda based on my experiences looking out of hotel rooms into alleys and I really didn't see any activity....its a crappy view from a crappy hotel!

Adam, I would update more often if I had more time...there are all the real life distractions that take you away from the bench, like your job and your family and the "honey do..." list!

I really have final assembly and then its done, but I don't want to rush it. SHould be finished this month if the stars align.

You could try modeling a cat--a scrawny, flea-bitten mangy one and test-fit it to see if you like it, but I like the diorama with no figures at all; not even a cat. It evokes a sense of loneliness and abandonment.

vespa boy

Thanks Bodge and Indy.

Bodge: ~AND JIM   I am afraid that there are no figures planned for this one. There is a plastic bag caught in the railing and an empty bottle, so there is evidence of life. Its kinda based on my experiences looking out of hotel rooms into alleys and I really didn't see any activity....its a crappy view from a crappy hotel!

~Don't you wish everyone would read through your whole awsome thread and not ask the same things over and over? _LOL_

Adam, I would update more often if I had more time...there are all the real life distractions that take you away from the bench, like your job and your family and the "honey do..." list!

~You ain't just whistle'n Dixie my friend! Six months on my W.I.P. I can relate!!

I really have final assembly and then its done, but I don't want to rush it. SHould be finished this month if the stars align.  I'm looking forward to completion----whenever it happens Narayan.

I did make some progress this week.

The box is all together now and the "window wall" is in place. Its all a little trickier than you think getting everything to line up and be square and flush. All that's left to do is to make the lid...4 sides with a piece of Plexiglas held in with a rebate.

I'll post pics when its all done.

Narayan, forgive my tardiness in checking in again on this wonderful, amazing project of yours--this is simply stunning once again! You have a knack for details that I envy and admire. The smallest things do not go unnoticed by our eyes!

FABULOUS!

Hi N

An absolute master piece as always. But we have come to expext nothing less from you

When you look at it in person do you get a sence of vertigo when you look out the window and fown at the alley? It looks do real in your pictures that I would be suprised if you did.

Carl

Thanks Karl and Carl for the kind words. Kudos from both of you means a lot. Very appreciated.

Karl: I really love the tiny details that bring out the real nature of something, The stuff you don't remember but notice when its not there.

Carl: You are saved from vertigo by your peripheral vision. If there were some way of blocking it, like a velvet drape over your head like photographers use to use with bellows cameras, then you would definitely be reaching for something to steady yourself!

Just some more photos of the final model

The is another view through the window. To get the look of a framed pane I had to add framing and a black seal on both sides of the clear plastic. It seemed to work well as an effect.

A detail of the window sill which has a stain from a coffee cup and a small burn from a cigarette. I added the pull cords for the venetian blind from stretched sprue

And one more detail shot

Beautiful!