Too disturbing to build?

History itself is disturbing! In this time of political corectness, some may get their feelings hurt. I dare say that more than feelings were hurt in Aushwitz!
I say go for it!

I saw a diorama many years ago that was done with great taste. It had a boy, still dressed in his prison clothing, laying on a stretcher. Kneeling beside him was an American soldier giving him a candy bar. Several other soldiers were standing by the stretcher. One was even wiping his eyes.

As long as it is done with taste, I see nothing wrong with it. After all, it is a part of history.

I agree, go for it....

models in general , dioramas in particular, are about telling a story. People deny or forget and either way the next generation is oblivious. Tell away!!
keep us posted

This is what the IPMS has to say about this topic:
"The following may be entered in the competition or put on display but can be presented only behind opaque screens or similar visual barriers and only where visitors are provided with a fair description, in written format, of the contents of the models behind the screen. This screened presentation covers competitors and the general public, but no person younger than 18 will be admitted except in the presence of an adult responsible for the young person, subject to the provisions of governing local law:"
"Models or dioramas of historic events (e.g., general dioramas or specific depictions of the result of the activities of the communist Cambodian Pol Pot regime, a Soviet Gulag, or a Nazi death camp) where the suffering of human beings, or the result of a pogrom, is depicted. Where the theme, content, or subject matter of presentations is graphic or would violate any provision of part A of this policy, the presentation is prohibited in any setting."
I am not a IPMS member myself, but I have attended many IPMS shows. While I can not speak for the IPMS, it has been my personal experience that dioramas which depict scenes of human suffering are generally frowned upon at IPMS shows. A friend of mine was scorned for displaying a diorama of a dramatic car crash. While no gore was involved, not even any blood, it still caused a lot of commotion.
If this diorama is not intended for competition at a IPMS event, then who cares what they think. This hobby should have the freedom to express one's emotions in the same way as any other artistic medium.

The way I see it , what we do is a direct reflection of the historical progressions of mankind. Alot of what has happened in the past is not pretty or something that some may not want to accept that happened. As long as these moments in time are remembered , the chances of them being repeated are minimized. What is the difference from building a dio of something and it being put on the big screen with all the gory details in motion? It makes no sense that a movie such as Schindlers List is highly acclaimed but yet if you take the time to build a dio of the same subject it is frowned on.
There is just to much political correctness these days and it will do nothing but harm the future generations. As far as displaying a car crash, that should be something that all teenagers see first hand. If they could see,smell and hear everything that comes out of someone doing something stupid than maybe they would think twice before doing something stupid behind the wheel. Protecting them from what happens in the real world does nothing but let the real world slap them in the face the hard way.
I say go for building anything that you want to. As long as it is done with taste and reflects the historical value of the subject it should not cause any problems. Plus if someone don't like it, they can always look at something else.

I dont think it comes down to IPMS rules, those dont mean anything to me.

If you live in America you have the freedom to build it. If done in poor taste, and graphic with no merit, well it will just speak for itself.

Dont be afraid to try something just because it is a difficult subject. Use your judgement and think of how other people would view your work.

Good luck,

Powerful statements can be made with the right diorama.

I wonder where IPMS would choose to display a diorama of the Crucifixion?

Gip Winecoff

Muzzleflash and lizardqing2, I couldn't agree with you more. I think you should be able to build whatever you like, provided it shows some modicum of good taste. (whatever that is) I'm not saying I agree with the IPMS, in fact, this is one of the reasons I don't belong to the IPMS, I don't like some of their politics. The car crash thing really struck me as odd. Why can we build dioramas of war scenes and this be viewed as perfectly acceptable, while dioramas of an Indi-car crash was deemed to be in poor taste and cause a major uproar? This makes no sense to me at all. All I'm saying is don't show up at a IPMS show with your liberated Dachau crematorium scene and expect to walk away with a trophy. People don't like to be reminded of the horrors of war. Apparently neither do IPMS judges. We certainly should never forget what happened, so that we would never see a repeat of such things. But subconsciously, people abhor viewing scenes such as this and maybe this topic would be better off left alone, at least from a modeling standpoint. There is a very thin line between accurate graphic depiction of war crimes and overt gore. And I for one, am not sure where that line is.

Here's an interesting discussion thread regarding this type of diorama.

concentraton or death camp ww2
read #7 - A word of encouragement and the reply.

Digital Dioramas - A Final Farewell

QUOTE: Originally posted by leopold This is what the IPMS has to say about this topic: "The following may be entered in the competition or put on display but can be presented only behind opaque screens or similar visual barriers and only where visitors are provided with a fair description, in written format, of the contents of the models behind the screen. This screened presentation covers competitors and the general public, but no person younger than 18 will be admitted except in the presence of an adult responsible for the young person, subject to the provisions of governing local law:" "Models or dioramas of historic events (e.g., general dioramas or specific depictions of the result of the activities of the communist Cambodian Pol Pot regime, a Soviet Gulag, or a Nazi death camp) where the suffering of human beings, or the result of a pogrom, is depicted. Where the theme, content, or subject matter of presentations is graphic or would violate any provision of part A of this policy, the presentation is prohibited in any setting." I am not a IPMS member myself, but I have attended many IPMS shows. While I can not speak for the IPMS, it has been my personal experience that dioramas which depict scenes such as human suffering are generally frowned upon. A friend of mine was scorned for displaying a diorama of a dramatic car crash. While no gore was involved, not even any blood, it still caused a commotion at the show.

Now I know why I dont belong to IPMS! Geesh is everyone going PC? I mean historical events although catastrophic and sometimes gruesome...really happened! Where as some of this brutal violence on Tv is nothing more than imaginary and often worse(in visual intensity) than some of the historical events! Of course this is just my

a few years someone turned up at the IPMS nationals in the uk with a liberated concentration camp diorama and was told he couldnt show or enter it
it was in good taste and was a very good diorama

As Styrene has said - Powerful statements can be made with the right diorama.

I was in Germany this last Spring, and visited many museums, churches, and historic places. The last big city I was in was Berlin, and they have many photographs in their memorials of the destruction of the city. It was a very awakening experience to see the photos and then just turn and look at the very place where it all happened (the Brandenburg Gate, at the moment).
However, what made the biggest impression on me was visiting a museum in Mannheim. In a large display case was a diorama of a city in total destruction. Just a two block long scene, with the rubble, the bodies, the survivors crawling over the rubble looking for survivors. Very disturbing, yet very truthful.
If you feel in your heart you should do this diorama, then you should do it. And don't concern yourself with whether it is appropiate.
As others have said here, if done well (not meaning in the super detail, modeling sense) it would honor the victims and survivors, and, I believe, would be a valuable contribution to history.
Please consider doing this. No one else has of yet.

A lot of old and classic paintings done during the Renaissance Period that speak about the "dark ages" can be considered offensive, politically malicious, disgusting or even morbid. Some of these depict in great details, people and events in suffering, pain and violence.

Do people despise or curse these paintings? No, people spend millions on them.

So I am asking myself...

What's then the difference between a painter in the Renaissance Period trying to paint a picture of a really horrifying event that occurred in his time and a modern day modeler trying to make a diorama of a similar theme but of a different period in history?

If the objective of both is to honestly recreate or record an event that they consider historically important and nothing more...then I see no difference at all. Like the paintings of old...these dioramas will become the window of the future generations when they try to look back into the past to learn.

This might sound a little weird but us as modelers have the power to communicate by our creations specific moments in time... I remember as a kid going to museums and looking, admiring and drooling over all the dioramas, it started a passion in me to learn history, not only military but history in general and to try to become a modeler myself to pass that gift along someday.... sometimes a picture or in this case a diorama or representation of a fact can trigger the humanity that some people have lost, I know that modelers do dioramas not only because they like it but because they want to share a message to future generations in a very good way...... If you choose to do the Dio keep us posted

Personally, I don't think that the topic about the Holocaust is too disturbing to depict in a diorama. Like the saying goes"...least we forget." this topic should remind us of what had happened & that it should never happen again. History teaches us a lot of things, it's our ignorance of those events that make history repeat itself.
About a month ago I was with my wife visiting historical sights in Washington, D.C., when we were @ the Arlington National Cemetery I had this strange kind of feeling. I see all these rows of crosses & was thinking to myself, these people weren't just buried here because they died in war but they're buried here because they died fighting for freedom... least we forget...Freedom is not Free.

Basically what it comes down to is that I haven´t been commissioned to do something like this. I´d probably do it if I were though because it´s such an important piece of history.
But just to keep out on my bookshelf, well, I don´t know about that.
Also, it´s so important to not do a bad job so I´ll think about it, maybe put it on hold for some time and decide later.

The entire world is trying to become PC on everything from the spoken language to dioramas now it seems. It's ok to show sexual scenes, drug use, domestic abuse, violence etc in the movies ( I don't have a problem with that ) but it's also prevelent on TV now at anytime during the day where kids are exposed to it more often without parental guidance ( I am opposed to that ). Go out in public and use the word "retarded" for someone who is mentally retarted and you are frowned upon for not saying "metally challenged" like that changes anything. Pretty soon we can't call people "short", they are "vertically challenged" and yeah, that's kind of a joke now, but it's coming just as hard. To many liberal minded people think if you call a pile of dog crap a "rose" it's gonna smell better. It's the ostrich syndrome of burying your head in the sand and pretending the "real" world isn't there. There are many ugly, evil, dangerous things and people out there and it's a reality that can't be changed by calling it something "nice" or "pretty".

As far as the dio goes, it could be done in a tasteful way (as far as the subject allows anyway) and would be a good lesson that I would let my children see if they were at least 7 or 8 maybe, because I want my children to understand that there is that kind of thing happening out there in the world today. Showing too much blood or gore would be a bit over the top even though it's reality, I'd want my kids to be older before seeing something like that.

I remember seeing a dio in one of Verlinden's books that showed a medic amputating a guys leg. It wasn't exactly pleasent but it did show the reality of war.

Eric

I think PCers are "realisticly challenged" because they have problems with reality. I was reminded of a Star Trek quote by that ostrich remark, Eric. It was something to the effect of a bird with a similar habit but with water and sometimes in their efforts to hide from something by refusing to acknowledge it they would drown. That's what the PC crowd are doing, drowning in their own shallowness. I wonder what these PCers do in real life. Probably nothing because they probably can't handle it. In their own way, they perpetuate the same attitude they are campaigning against. Isn't rejecting and persecuting a group of people because of their beliefs what the are protesting because that what they're doing to the people who aren't as radical as they are.

I think the IPMS ruling is the right way to do it.

People are offended by what they choose to be offended by. The Holocaust is one of those odd subjects that go along with pin-up art. It may be done tastefully, but we all know what it is and what it referes to.. giving it a stigma. The main question is what your intent is.
Do you intend to show-off your skill? do it with a popular subject that people are proud to see.
Do you intend to shock people? make something that they are embarrased to see.

Remember that time magazine cover, from the Oklahoma City bomb? It had a fireman carrying a dead child. It won a pulitzer, but the photographer was ashamed of having it getting so much attention.

Some things are better burried until it isn't a painful memory.

i seem to remember reading something about a Holocaust museum displaying a concentration camp diorama entirely made of lego blox and figures awhile back. i never actually saw this exhibit, but i remember being struck by the contrast between the benign and childlike nature of the material and the disturbing subject. i thought it was a great idea myself, and the more disturbing the subject the more worthy it is to remember (IMHO), and to make sure it never happens again !
but all things aren't for everybody.... maybe not too disturbing 4 u to build, but too disturbing for some to see ?
frosty

QUOTE: Originally posted by frostygirl but all things aren't for everybody.... maybe not too disturbing 4 u to build, but too disturbing for some to see ?

Excellent statement. I have to agree with frostygirl.

Personally, there are images I've seen which I would prefer never to see again, unless I'm mentally prepared for it.

In regards to movies, I personally thought Saving Private Ryan was an excellent movie. I saw it in theatres once. I own a VHS copy which still remains sealed in plastic. I haven't been able to bring myself to watch it again. Another movie I feel the same way about is La Vita è bella (also called Life is Beautiful) which if you haven't seen it, I would highly recommend it. Be warned though, it is a sad movie.

So maybe it's not as "PC" as many think.

You should do the diorama when and if you decide you are ready. If you feel that you need to make this statement then you shouldn't cheat yourself by not doing it.

i got a chance to go there last summer, what part of the camp are you modeling? i probably have some pics of it.

Never forget that war, always a terrible thing, brings out the worst in humanity but the best in men. Learn from the first and admire the second.

This is a very thought provoking thread. It highlights freedom of speech and the evils of political correctness. To remember and relate the wrongs and horrors of the past should be a responsibility of the generation that lived through it and those that follow. If you have skills that let you tell that story and you do so, Bless you. I'm sure the victims of the Holocaust would want the world to remember what happened to them, wouldn't you? Now as far PC goes, it's a failed concept and was coined for the timid by those who would govern them. The only question is how long people will tolerate it. Build it if you feel moved to do so.

sod what the IPcMS think, that story should be told,the diorama should be built, and people should see it. i personaly don't have the skills to do this diorama, i would have to leave it to people with much more skill than i can ever hope to attain. but if i did have the skills needed i would do it with no hesitation. if people don't want to see it then they are blinded to what their fellow man can inflict to his or her brother/sister, this event in history could quite easily be repeated by some evil tyrant like the one that has been ousted from iraq (and from what i saw in the news probably was). to stop this from happening again we have to remember, to remember we have to see, to see there has to be evidence, even in model form. no ESPECIALLY in model form as this can be more graphic than a photograph. not in the bloodthirsty sense but in the purely visual sense. i say do it, please. Greg

A number of people have suggested that the arguments against building such a dio are a matter of political correctness, but I don't see this as a political correctness (whatever that means anymore) issue at all. Rather, as someone pointed out, it is a subject that has already received a lot of attention in other media formats, and it seems to me that those who either survived Nazi death camps or were related to or knew somebody in one would welcome the opportunity to have their story told in this manner. It is not something someone would obviously do for a morbid love of the subject matter (I would certainly hope), but only for the most honorable reasons. In other words, the very act of building such a dio would indicate to me a desire to tell the story, to ensure that we "never forget," and to help others understand the brutality of warfare and its adjacent atrocities. What would someone accuse the builder of, exactly? Enjoying the recreation of others' pain, suffering, and death? Obviously, the builder would not have that in mind at all and would, in my mind, honor those who must have suffered so horribly.

DocTG

A Nazi death camp, slave quarters in the pre civil war south, the trenches outside of My Lai, or the twister remains of 2 proud towers. All are worthy subjects for a well done tastefull diorama. Repugnant as the subjects may be, these are stories that MUST be told. I can think of few better artistic forms to depict the triumph of the human sprirt in the depths of tragedy than a 3 dimentional depiction of what happened. What better tribute to those who lived the experience?