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Too disturbing to build?

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frc
  • Member since
    January 2007
Posted by frc on Sunday, January 28, 2007 8:48 PM
This thread is four years old, but near and dear to my heart.  I made a 1/72 scale model of several buildings in Auschwitz, in which my dad was a prisoner (1941-1945), and the model, although graphic, is, I believe, important.  If I knew how to post pictures on this website, I'd show them.  Yes, the tiny figures are horrible and sad to look at, but how can you not look at them and feel compassion?  Modelers too often glorify war and ignore the atrocities.  I think the atrocities are what make dioramas so compelling and historically significant!
  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Uppsala, Sweden
Posted by bultenibo on Monday, January 29, 2007 12:04 PM

This is one big discussion, but I agree with "FRC" (welcome to the forum by the way) in that the atrocities of war is often forgotten in dioramas.

I thought that I should give you two examples of dioramas depicting scenes from The final solution. I have searched the net thoroughly looking for dioramas of this kind, but these two are the only ones I have found yet.

 "My GOD, Why Do You Throw Me Away!" by Park Sung ho:

http://www.track-link.net/gallery/2619

"A Final Farewell" by Keith Forsyth:

http://www.armorama.co.uk/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&req=viewarticle&artid=468&page=5

 If anyone find another diorama on this theme, I would be grateful if you could post the link.

 

/Tony

aka bultenibo

 

  • Member since
    February 2006
  • From: Smithers, BC, Canada
Posted by ruddratt on Monday, January 29, 2007 3:15 PM
I suppose I'm OK with them as long as they're tastefully done (like the one's Tony linked in his post). Those done purely for shock value are IMHO deserving of any negative critique they may receive.

Mike

 "We have our own ammunition. It's filled with paint. When we fire it, it makes pretty pictures....scares the hell outta people."

 

  • Member since
    January 2005
  • From: returning to the FSM forum after a hiatus
Posted by jinithith2 on Monday, January 29, 2007 4:49 PM

 David Voss wrote:
QUOTE: Originally posted by frostygirl
but all things aren't for everybody.... maybe not too disturbing 4 u to build, but too disturbing for some to see ?


Excellent statement. I have to agree with frostygirl.

Personally, there are images I've seen which I would prefer never to see again, unless I'm mentally prepared for it.

In regards to movies, I personally thought Saving Private Ryan was an excellent movie. I saw it in theatres once. I own a VHS copy which still remains sealed in plastic. I haven't been able to bring myself to watch it again. Another movie I feel the same way about is La Vita è bella (also called Life is Beautiful) which if you haven't seen it, I would highly recommend it. Be warned though, it is a sad movie.

So maybe it's not as "PC" as many think.

about the saving private ryan... I too was very disturbed the first time I saw it, like the Bastogne episode in Band of Brothers. if you havent seen that episode in BoB, it's about the E company's medic and I warn you. be prepared for a LOT of blood if you watch it

  • Member since
    May 2004
  • From: Kings Mountain, NC
Posted by modelbuilder on Monday, January 29, 2007 8:22 PM
Just want to give  My 2 cents [2c] worth on this. As someone else stated we all share a hobby that gives us the chance not only to do something we love but to depict certain eras, acts, personalities, and yes even the horrors of history. "Those who foreget history are doomed to repeat it", we should all remember that. Ive always wanted to see the scene from THE BIG RED ONE where the Lee Marvin is carrying the boy on his shoulders, that scedn always got to me. However as a note to competeing in events, I remember reading somewhere that Shep Payne once built a dio of a German 88 in a church and it was removed from the show because it was too offensive. If that was too offensive, what would they think of a dio of a Holocaust event?

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Uppsala, Sweden
Posted by bultenibo on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 3:18 PM

I almost forgot one of the most important aspect of this discussion, one that usually tends to be forgotten: that dioramas as a concrete form of historical representation can be a useful pedagogical tool and maybe also a shortcut to a different historical situation that we can't and, in this case, wouldn't want to experience first hand.

When I was reading a lot about the "Operation Reinhardt" death Camps in Poland a couple of years ago, I learned that one aspect of them had been very problematic to reconstruct - the layout of the camps, how they actually looked back in 1942/43.

The problem was that, in contrast to Auschwitz for exampel, the camps of Operation Reinhardt (Belzec, Treblinka and Sobibor) was totally demolished in late 1943 as an effort to conceal the nazi crimes committed there. All the buildings were torn down, the ground was levelled and pine trees were planted on the sites. Since no drawing plans survived the war, the historians' reconstruction of the layout of the camps had to be based solely on eyewitness accounts. (Later, historians have been able to shed some more light on the topic through archelogical excavations and with the help of aerial photography.)

But based on eyewitness accounts there has been some attempts to make an accurate model of one of the camps, Treblinka. The problem in this respect is that the eyewitness accounts are left by the few surviving jewish prisoners and that thay had a limited possibility to see the whole camp. But by piecing all this information together one modeller by the name Peter Laponder managed to reconstruct Treblinka. The diorama, in the scale 1:400, is shown at the Gisozi Genocide Memorial in Kigali, Rwanda, another place that bears witness about human cruelty. The model can also be seen on this site:

http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/laponder1.html

One of the few survivors from Treblinka, Yankiel Wiernik, has also built his own model of the camp. Wiernik worked as a carpenter in the camp, could move more easily from one part it to another, and had therefor a better chance to get a more accurate overall picture. His model that is made out of wood can bee seen here:

http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/wiernik.html  

The third diorama that I know of is that made by a modeller named Peter (not sure about his first name). He based his model on the account of Richard Glazer, another  prisoner that survived Treblinka. Glazer had an unique opportunity to get an overview of the camp, since he worked in the so called "Camoflage commando", that every day left the camp to chop down branches to twine into the barbed wire fences, to conceal the horrors from people outside. (His book Trap with a Green Fence: Survival in Treblinka is one of the most chilling accounts from Treblinka and I can really recommed it for anyone interested in the Final solution. It is avaliable on Amazon.com for example).

Peters' model is different from the other two, since he tries to reconstruct the activety in the the camp. The scene in the foreground is that the victims leaving the trainset, but the diorama allows the spectator to follow the whole killing process up until the cremation of the bodies. Even though the model is in the scale 1:400, I find it to be one of the most horrifying representations I have seen of the Final solution, at least in this form. Some people may find it distrubing, a sign af bad taste etc, but to me it has the merit that it allows people to visulize the industrial killing machiney in all its brutal apparation. You be the judge. The model can be found on this site:

http://www.death-camps.org/treblinka/peters.html

I hope that the links will show another way in which the diorama modelling can be used - for other purposes than the pure satisfaction we (often) find in building our models. 

/Tony

aka bultenibo

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  • Member since
    January 2007
  • From: Australia
Posted by Fast Heinz on Thursday, February 1, 2007 1:34 AM

I was at the Imperial War Museum in London early last year and the Holocaust exhibition had a large diorama of auschwitz in 1/72 scale (I think). It included the netrance gates, the railhead in the camp with a train being unloaded and the human cargo being segregated into those destined for work and the others for the gas chambers. All the various bits of baggage and personall effects were depicted. The crematoria were also modelled.

It was very moving to look at though photos were prohibited in that section so I couldn't take any that I might show you.

Obviously it was on a scale that would be much too big for most, if not all of us, but it shows of such a depiction can be useful in presenting a very good visualisation of how things would have been.

I don't know if its a permanent exhibit or if I just got lucky in being there at the right time.

Cheers

  • Member since
    January 2003
  • From: USA
Posted by reluctant_wanderer on Thursday, February 1, 2007 4:24 AM

I remember seeing a thing a while back on the death camps, and it had to do with when Eisenhower came to inspect the camps shortly after the were liberated.  He then and there ordered that every soldier from Patton on down through the lowliest private come and see this camp.  His reasons were three-fold: 1.So everybody could see what the allies were fighting for.  2.To see the horrors, and report it to the world. 3.to bear witness that this really happened, so that if somebody came along later to deny it, there would be ample witnesses.  I don't remember the program, but I remember it was on  the history channel.

If that was good enough for the Supreme Commander of the European theatre, I think that it is a good thing to build this diorama, so to bear witness to the horrors, and to remind us about how to be and not to be in this world.  After all, "those that don't learn history are doomed to repeat it"

Life is a Trainer , and God is the back seat instructor. He's their to let your spirit soar, and keep you flying straight. After you've passed, you earn earn your wings.
  • Member since
    February 2010
Posted by yoyokel on Thursday, February 1, 2007 10:04 PM
 It depends on what the dio is but I havent seen one yet that tugged at my heart. To be honest,a diorama is not the art form to try and portray the Holocaust or any other kind of war crime. War is bad enough but to try and make a dio of a war crime,etc I dont think can be done effectively. Its relatively easy to make something look "cool" in a dio,like a Sherman ripping through a hedgerow with a plow on it but it is very,very difficult to show suffering without actually making a sadistic scene. After all,how can you show what the Holocaust really was if you dont show it at its worst? Believe me,NOONE is going to look at a diorama and cry! Music-yes,movies-yes,dioramas-no! Use your energy for something else.

" All movements go too far "

  • Member since
    June 2004
  • From: Akron ohio
Posted by phoenix7187 on Friday, February 2, 2007 11:34 PM

Oh yes it's been done before. I've seen several death camp dioramas. One depected people be lined up from off a train and seperated into groups It read " final farewell". Another was being liberated and showed us army not only helping the people that were left but covering over the dead. The title of this one was "at long last" those are the ones I remember but there were more.

  My favorite one is of a stalag luft camps on one side in the snow, with us airman let's just say in a bad situation.  on the other side the snow turned into clouds and you saw a b-24 getting shot up by 3 fw190's. It read "In the face of overwhelming odds we go on".  I have also seen dioramas of custards last stand (alot of killing going on in this one)

So I would say go for it. If it is a true life event and and done well it will get noticed. I don't see the problem with it.  As far as IPMS goes I think it has to do with the local club views so to speak. I've seen dio's like that at events, But I also know that have rules to cover this type of entry as well. I've never been placed in a position where I had to make that type of decision. I personally would allow it, but I don't know where IPMS stands on this.  I know they have some rules to leave themselves an out  just incase something does show up that needs special care. Remember there are kids at these events.

 

Stan
  • Member since
    February 2005
  • From: California
Posted by rabbiteatsnake on Saturday, February 3, 2007 2:41 AM
 I believe this is an art form, and as an artist you must make choices.  You're not locked into showing just brutality, yet it may still appear, show inmates in a soup line,(Probably a high point of their day.) yet the pathos revealed may prove to be a powerful statement indeed.  I have read "A day in the life of Ivan Denisovich."  (and I'm sure its misspelled.), by A. Solsenitchen such ecstasy exppressed over an extra chunk of bread, or easy work detail, by these poor sods, put a lump in my throat.  Ask yourself, "what if Picasso hadn't painted Guernica."
The devil is in the details...and somtimes he's in my sock drawer. On the bench. Airfix 1/24 bf109E scratch conv to 109 G14AS MPC1/24 ju87B conv to 87G Rev 1/48 B17G toF Trump 1/32 f4u-1D and staying a1D Scratch 1/16 TigerII.
  • Member since
    January 2006
  • From: Baton Rouge, Snake Central
Posted by PatlaborUnit1 on Monday, February 5, 2007 10:10 AM

A small vignette such as this can be more powerful than a bigger diorama with complex structures.  This would keep the focus on the humanity involved....I would TOTALLY go for it.

 

David

Build to please yourself, and don't worry about what others think! TI 4019 Jolly Roger Squadron, 501st Legion
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