1/48 B-17 Group Build...ALL INVITED TO JOIN!

That D doesnt look too bad. Did she at least least come with the rest of the kit parts, undercarraige etc...? Looks like alot more work to do it from the G kit, mainly cause of the astrodome on the nose. I'll probably be starting mine sooner rather than later after my mustangs are done. I was gonna build a special "sabre" jet in a a special scheme, but I gotta wait on that, I need the decals made for it.

So I've got an F kit to use for the D conversion. I'll be watching what you do with yours, I wanna see how you handle the engine nacelles and cowl flap areas. I'm also considering using the cut off F tail for a diorama of a shot down B-17.

Can you post wip pics as you go along on the D?

Yea she came with the all the stuff from the G kit, landing gear, guns, etc., even had the cut off tail section (probably make a factory dio of all the tail sections when I finish all three).  Thankfully the original owner dealt with the G style nose, as all of the astrodome and cheek gun fairings have already been removed.  I would definitely say its easier to convert it from an F kit then the G.

The engine nacelles and cowl flaps won't be much of a problem.  On the D, you don't have to do anything to the cowl flaps, but if you were to do a C, you'll have to fill in the cowl flaps.  The #1 and 2 engines broke off on mine, so there's something else I have to repair.  Now you do have to do some surgery on the props to make them into the non paddle blades.

WIll post pics when I work on her again, but it probably won't be till July, got a couple of other GBs I need to work on first.

This may be off topic, but I wondering if anyone had information on "grayed out" national insignias on B-17s.  Its were the white on the star and bar is gray.  The decal sheet I have provides them for the particular plane I'm doing, but I have my doubts.  I was just wondering if anyone knew about these.

Just lucked out.....I decided to do some more research into my bird and ended up finding 2 rare pictures of her unbeknownst to me, including one in which she wears 15 mission markers; I'm modeling her returning from the 16th.  Unfortunately the national insignias cant be seen.

I wouldnt worry to much about the grey star and bar. You can use it if you want and you wouldnt necessarilly be wrong. I dont know exactly when that was started, but it was done. I've see it alot where the S and B on the fuselage was grey but the ones one the wings were left white. But the white faded and dirty anyway so I would say it's up to you. I very highly doubt that if you did put them on nobody would be able to say you are wrong.

Thanks B-17Guy.  The only problem is that I dont have any regular national insignias.  THe ones that came with the kits seem to have some residue on them, even after i reordered a sheet from revell.  I have a couple superscale sheets but they have a weird separation on them and appear too light colored, and the eagle strike sheet has the gray ones and another set where the outline is lighter than the star.  I'm gonna test the kit ones again to see if they work, and hopefully they do

On second thought, I've been looking around and have found that these insignias were pretty common throughout the European Theater, so I think I will use them, and I think it will put an interesting touch on my bird.

There was some discussion about these 'grayed' out insignias on another forum I am on.  There were doubts that they ever even existed.. or why they existed. especially on shiny BMF aircraft.., but some of the photos posted certainly made them seem a fact. 

I saw that forum too and it sounded pretty heated.  I dont believe the argument of the gray being merely just dirt and grime since all photos I've seen of the gray insignias are uniform in color.  The photographic evidence doesn't lie either and its obvious that these markings were pretty common throughout Europe.

I have at least 30 books on the B-17- I cant remember seeing a single pic of gray insignia . Can some one post a pic on this? I will scour my catalogue of info tonight to see if I can lend some definitve proof on this.

Don't quote me on this or anything, but I think the gray Star and Bar was a experiment in colors, like with the short lived red surrond on the Star and Bar, as I have seen plenty of decals with grey S and B for multiple aircraft, mostly for Europe based birds.

I never quote any one on any thing!! I believe the red surround was actually standard until after Dec 7 (or thereabouts) when all red markings were removed ,since gunners woulds actually 'see red ' and fire at it,I do remember reading that . I will look at my archives tonight to see about the grey markings.

There is so much disinfo,misinfo,etc it would be nice to have a definitive explanation for the questions.

I have a few pics, but I'm not sure how to get pictures on here

Here's one

krow113

I never quote any one on any thing!! I believe the red surround was actually standard until after Dec 7 (or thereabouts) when all red markings were removed ,since gunners woulds actually 'see red ' and fire at it,I do remember reading that

You're correct about gunners seeing red and firing... But the red center was removed by June or July of '42, IIRC.. The red surround of the star & bar (star 3 below) was very short-lived, and was placed on US aircraft for only about 2 months starting in August of 1943. During that time, it wa thought that gunners wouldn't fire on aircraft so marked, but they were wrong... It was ordered to be painted over with blue on operational aircraft in September '43 (hence the darker blue surround you see from time to time) and done at the factory from that point on...  There was a short period of star & bar insignias without either border in the PTO also (star 4)...

So then it seems the grayed out insignias were not factory applied, so they must've been sprayed on in the field

So does anyone else think I could get away using the grayed out insgnias on my plane as the decal sheet calls for?

HVH- Thanx for the definitive info on the red scenario.I am lookin as we speak regarding the gray insignia ,as my curiosity for all things B-17 has kicked in.It will be a while............I am wondering which kit # has the gray decal sheet ,is it a 1/48 B-17 ?

None of the kits have the grayed out insignias.....I purchased a decals sheet that does.  It is Eagle Strike sheet  #48-157: Achtung Viermots  Part II

Here's a link to a review of the sheet

http://www.modelingmadness.com/scotts/decals/es/es48157.htm

Here's some info on the grey insignia...

In the Spring of 1943, all B-17s were factory-finished in Olive Drab (Shade 41) over Neutral Gray (Shade 43) paint scheme. The national insignia at the time was an Insignia Blue disc, upon which was applied a 5-pointed white star. This device, known as a "cocarde," was applied to the upper surface of the port wing, the under surface of the starboard wing, and both sides of the fuselage forward of the waist windows. Prior to May 1942, a red disc had been applied to the center of the star. The red disc was overpainted white in June 1942 owing to confusion in the Pacific Theater with the red disc that identified Japanese aircraft. Vega-built B-17s were unique in that they carried a 60" diameter cocarde on the fuselage, as opposed to Boeing and Douglas, who used a 55" cocarde. When the planes arrived in England, the white of the star was usually overpainted a dull gray in an effort to reduce the visibility of the planes to enemy aircraft.

http://www.384thbombgroup.com/pages/markings.html

Interesting stuff there Hans.  Im thinking though that the markings would vary from bomb group to bomb group

First info I looked for in 'Battle Colors'    originally  White triangle,insignia blue 'A'    changed to-         black triangle ,white   'A', nmf aircraft     -black triangle yellow 'A'  on painted (camo) aircraft ,  tail marking till wars end

is for the 1st Bombardment Air Div-  91 st Bombardment Wing (Heavy) , late '44 (nmf dictates late war usually)

Fuselage marking ' LG'   are for 322 bomb squadron , Your pic suggests a 'G' model late war.Red vertical tail stripe ,red inner engine cowl , red band outer cowl , red horizontal stabilizer, (but a shadow under the hsis not red)  , doesnt look like red outlined s&b so the book suggests post sept. '43 (check HVH post in here).My build is of a night leaflet dropper , 422 sq , there is a comment in here saying the 'white portion of the s&b marking was drybrushed with olive drab to allieviate  the contrast for it was a supposed aiming point for the nasty luftwaffe'.These NLS planes were od top black under or black o/a ,but a nmf plane would be a huge target w/o this .This has become a conundrum as late war markings seem to be of the high vis category.I can see why a heated debate may occur I am only interested in factual rather than estimated knowledge so I will only present what I find in the 36 (I counted) books I have.If you dont care then use the bloody decals ,its your build!,it would be nice to know the details though as if the model is presented for inspection a question WILL  be asked! I am well into it now so check back later.

Looking through my books I find several references to grayed out insignia as HVH suggests,I also found air to air photos of aircraft from the same squadron ,some grayed some not. I think the decals you are considering may have been excellently researched and you  would be correctin there use.You will also have the answer to the enevitable r/c questions!! .Good luck on your build and ask any thing you like on here as there is a vast amount of knowledge available and some good people who drop their scheduled business work to answer them. Please post a pic as ap.I am happy to find out something I did not know about B-17's so this was a cool distraction.

Yea, I just thought I would ask about them.  I won't be able to resume work or take any pics until i get home from college in about a month.  I don't really want to show it now anyways since I'm in the process of stripping the paint and the bird looks like crap, but I'm almost done stripping it.  I read through this thread and have found many things I can do to improve it, so it might be longer than I expected.  I have to finish stripping paint, take off the wings and reattach them properly, re wire the landing gear, fill in some unwanted battle damage, fill some seams, restore lost panel lines with stretched sprue, and so on.  It sounds like alot, but if I really sit down and do some work I should get all that stuff done in a week or so.  I am also finally gonna face my fears and bring out the airbrush on this one.

Heres a picture of a diorama of which mine will be similar to

Oh, and detailing the engines will take some time too.  The ignition harnesses I bouhgt from Eduard ended up being too far spaced out, so that was a waste of money.  Now I gotta cut off almost every wire and attach them according to the photo of the engine I found on my plane.

I guess I'm gonna side with the decals.  I have no photographic evidence to disprove them, and there are photos and accounts of the gray insgnias used by planes, including 322 BS 91 BG planes, and being somewhat common.  Plus, every other marking on the decal sheet is dead on so I'm gonna trust it.  Hopefully this bird will be good enough for competition when I'm done; I hope the use of the gray insignias doesn't cause a problem there.

Yes yes yes the harness was where I stopped my build -I was gonna use the wires and scratch the ring x4,turned me off cause I have all the p/e sets and started wondering if it all would be ill-fitting as well.Since then i have revamped my opinion of p/e kits -they are raw material ,just like the kits.

If possible I would like to know the other forum where the discussion on this is going on . I have posted other forums and there was' nt a problem. Would be nice to see the input there.

What forum on what?

The forum mentioned on here about the gray decals