Manstein's revenge:
F-8fanatic:
Have you ever heard Bud Anderson or any other WWII ace speak? They dont say "Hi, I'm Bud Anderson, I shot down 16 and a quarter planes in WWII, how are you?"
Frankly, the reason he, and other aces, do speak on the lecture circuit is because they were successful fighter pilots---that is, they are aces...And, yes, those guys are almost ALWAYS introduced as fighter aces and it is ALWAYS part of their bio when they are written about...why do you want to diminish their success? I don't often see or read about fighter pilots from WW2 who were not succesful in shooting down enemy a/c....there just isn't much market for them...You may not like it of think its "fair" but that's just the way it is.
wow, what a cherry-picking job you just did there. Look, dont take this so personally, but geez you really need to slow down. Try reading what I posted again....you will see that I made a clear distinction between what OTHER PEOPLE say and what THEY SAY about themselves. you then reply with "look what IS WRITTEN ABOUT THEM and look at how SOMEONE ELSE INTRODUCES THEM"....
Tell me, what exactly does that have to do with how they speak of themselves? You even went as far as to get all sarcastic with another member here about how kills are recorded. There is no need for you or anyone else to come in here with such a chip on their shoulder and talk to people that way....I dont care how long youve been here or what kind of models you build. You dont get the right to get all sarcastic and talk down to people like you know it all, so do us all a favor and give it a rest already. your definition of "successful fighter pilot" is "ace". That is only one facet of what those boys were sent off to do in that war. And they speak on the lecture circuit because of what other people say about them, NOT how they describe themselves. By your definition, all the fighter pilots that flew more mud-moving missions are failures because they are not "aces". Every photo-recon plane that was converted from a fighter airframe had a fighter pilot at the controls...were the Photo Lightning drivers all failures too because they werent aces?
Your position that success" means "ace" is very narrow-minded. That isnt an insult--its a FACT. For much of the war, top cover pilots were ordered to stay closer to the bombers, to drive away the attacking fighters--and every life those pilots saved makes them a success. Dont think so? Tough--they were given a mission and they accomplished it. As already known, a fighter pilot was tasked with a lot more than shooting down 109s. Hell, for many of the Tuskegee Airmen, they spent the majority of their combat time in Italy, not having rotated to the front lines like everyone else did, and so they didnt see very many Luftwaffe planes at all to begin with.
And to clarify, I did not make a "qualitative" judgement on whether any "red-tails" were aces or not, just brought up the historical fact...and there seems to be some debate on that point...I couldn't care less myself, other than discussing it from a historical perspective...I am begining to belive that you, and some others, are subtly implying a race issue surrounding anyone who brings up this one point in conversation regarding the red-tails' history and I certainly am offended by that...
wow, really?? So youre going to try to play race now? Are you kidding me?? I posted in this thread for one reason--because you acted like you had the right to get sarcastic with people when you dont. nothing more, nothing less. Aside from that, I am every bit as entitled to my point of view as you think you are to yours. AT NO TIME did I say, imply, infer, or anything else even remotely close to what you just claimed. Someone speaks FACTUALLY against your post because they disagree with some of your comments, and you come back with a racist accusation??
Tell you what, rather than trying to make up a position that I dont even have and never even came anywhere close to stating, why not address the FACTS as I presented them? you would have gotten a whole lot farther....as it is, you just lost a great deal of respect. I dont care what color anyone is, I have NEVER been a race-driven person....and I am not going to sit here and watch you falsely claim otherwise. Just because I recognize the fact that these men had to fight their own country at the same time as the enemy, that doesnt in any way mean I accused you of being a racist, so please get the hell over yourself and fast. Race was NEVER part of this issue for me.....so whats the problem? My facts shot holes in your flimsy logic, and this was all you felt you had left?? Look, pal, if the truth offends you to the point where you have to make things up because you cannot factually address the conversation, then thats on you.