http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2utNL_YaLIw&feature=player_detailpage

Hans I agree with you on what you posted, as far as nitpicking is certain colors based on photos for historic value. I sort drifted from the judge topic and went to a generalized comment. Where a guy made a Gee Bee R-1 model with the correct color pinstripe (which for those who dont know is actually blue and not black) and there is always some guy who will sit there and nitpick and not know what he is talking about and completely degrade the model because they lack the skill to build one for the sole purpose of trying to feel better than another person. So this guy goes on and on saying how the pinstripe is the wrong color and you can tell by the original pictures of the aircraft, mind you the only pictures take of the original plane are black and white photos. Well to make a long story short is that I overheard the conversation and told the rude guy that he should talk to Delmar Benjamin and ask him what mistake was made on the Gee Bee R-2 replica that made Delmar go "DOH" because his planes pinstriping was done in black. End result was the guy was dumb founded and moved on his way.

First place models should be the best in the group, second was the next best, third the follow best and the rest better luck next time.

I don't have any friends at competions...  In fact, I don't even talk to many people, except those that I have to....

And for the record, I've NEVER entered a model at a contest that I'd be judging...  If I find out I've been tagged to do the dioramas again, my build goes back out the car (If I can't keep an eye on it, I don't leave it).. As a matter of fact, I havent won anything since the 1980s, because I don't get to compete...

IT'S JUST A  HOBBY!!!!

Building is a hobby.. Competition is not..

IT'S JUST A  HOBBY!!!!

Hey I'm with you on this Bomber Boy. Modelling competitions are just politics. If you are friends with a judge you will get a good award. It's been like that at every show I've gone to. Some of the stuff that wins is really ******** compared to other models at the show and is all because the person who built the model is a person that the judge knew. I think judges should be people that go to the show that do not enter any models, but have some modelling experience. I support you on this!

I was just pullin' yer leg about the flashlight... Oh, I use it... But just to screw with people's heads...

Too much things to be nitpicked about. It all come down to the eye of the beholder. Sorry to say this if it offends some but a judges opinion does not mean much to me, its the fellow modeler that does.

No, it's not all "eye of the beholder".. There's a pretty strict set of guidleines that one has to follow when one judges at IPMS or AMPS shows..  However, it's not carved in stone, there's a litte leeway for judges here & there, and sadly, some judges DO take advantage of that fact...  

But as for nit-picking... Well.. Sorry man, but "nit-picking" is what happens in competion.. In fact, it HAS to be, or the contests would just fall into the same ol' "Everyone's a Winner, there are no Losers, everyone gets a trophy" kinda crap that too many people have gotten used to in this day and age of kids "Graduating" *roll eyes* from 5th Grade, Little League games in which nobody keeps score and everyone plays, same with soccer games and everything else... Just more ways of "Celebrating Mediocrity"...   I hate it with a passion..  But I DO have a flashlight with a right-angle, fiber-optic lens so I can look inside a turret or cockpit...

I've run into it time and time again with, "Hey man.. There're other models here that are clearly "below-par" and have won something.. Why'd I get dinged on (insert gripe here)? My answer is usually something like, " Well, all I can say is that yours was proabably 'more below' par... And anyways, "Par" ain't what we're aiming it, now is it?"... 

No judges are infalable, and some shouldn't be judging the categories that they get assigned to, but that's the fault of the Head Judge, not the individual judge, unless he says, I know all about this stuff"...  But when you only have a small number of "volunteers", ya "Run what ya Brung"...

Anyway, don't get too wound up at all the judges...

They're your "Fellow Modelers" too..

But the Head Judge, well.. 

He's usually someone who actually TRIES to get nominated for IPMS  office... Go ahead and email him a copy of "The I-95 Song" and tell him that you heard it on the radio and it made you think of him...  Or, get his milk-money on the way out...

Or another example is you could have two exact models built by two different people both look amazing but the difference lies in the paint. A person gets dinged because the paint is not faded like in a picture but really its just the photo is faded and the guy whos colors appear brighter is in the wrong. Too much things to be nitpicked about. It all come down to the eye of the beholder. Sorry to say this if it offends some but a judges opinion does not mean much to me, its the fellow modeler that does. If ten pro modelers tell you you did a great job on your model for your skill verses one judge who didnt like your taste in a color scheme or if something is not faded quite enough. But there are good judges out there who consider themselves just the average modeler who are in it for the fun and not the social status power hungry person.

Yeah Manstien good story!

Did I ever tell any of you about my experience at AMPS in 2009, regarding a seam on an aluminum barrel???

Hmmm, just getting into this hobby and working on my second model since being a teenager 20 years ago. This thread makes me wonder why anyone would want to enter a competition. From a personal perspective the  last thing I need to do is strive for another human's subjective approval with my relaxation time.  Though I understand that some people like it, I just don't get why

Too much good stuff going on in life to get that persnickety...

iraqiwildman

I build for the enjoyment of it, not to impress a "judge" on some contest.

I've come to that conclusion myself, thanks all for the help! Though I may enter form time to time, I think mostly I"ll just display. I do enjoy the hobby immensely and I do understand all said here. I am sorry if anyone may have been offended, I just wanted to raise the question, may have worded it wrong or unjustly.

James

I build for the enjoyment of it, not to impress a "judge" on some contest.

Just a couple of general thoughts on the subject. I have judged both 1-2-3 IPMS shows and Gold Silver Bronze (open style) shows. Nobody should ever EXPECT to win anything at a show, ever... To do so is setting yourself up for disappointment. Should the judges be following a fairly set standard? Yes... do they all? No... There are clubs that are known for not awarding any trophies to folks outside their "circle", most of them I have been around are fairly straight up. You can't know how experienced the judges are at a given show. Many times the ones judging a particular category are NOT familiar with that category because if they were they'd probably have models entered in it and thus be disqualified from judging it.Then you get into personal taste... Bottom line is, don't expect anything... Go, have fun and if you win something great, if not, ask the judges to review your model with you and show you what they found that they didn't like.

Two years in a row I went to a show in a nearby state and both years my armor models did not place. Both of those models were later taken to a Regional AMPS show and BOTH of them took Gold in the Advanced category. Was I upset? no... Because I'm not arrogant enough to expect a win. I went and enjoyed myself, hung out with friends, looked at models, bought way too much and had a good time.

James,

There are good quality models and then there are contest quality models. I always thought I was a decent modeler till I started taking stuff to shows. I don't know how these people do it - these guys who regularly win contests their models are perfect. I don't understand how they do it- I mess something up every time. I've been paying more attention to beginner things like alignment and seam lines but I still don't even come close. I haven't been in many IPMS judging shows but I rarely ever place in regular shows- I'd be happy just to get a third place win every now and then.

Cliff

Just my two pennies on this topic: for one I thought modelling was supposed to be fun. There will always be someone who is better than the next guy and or you. I for one do not make top notch perfect looking models at this time, but I do get better with every model I am building. I will say that EVERYONE who makes a model even if they are pros do not get everything 100% perfect. You can argue with me all day about how you got every detail blah blah blah but there will always be one thing atleast that is not perfect. But that will take away from the fun factor of making models. Turns building into a chore and then the sore feeling in the end will make the model building no longer fun. I could nitpick every model but what good will it do me? There are bigger things in life than to be upset about what place you got in a build and for judges who for whatever reason are biased to a certain nose art or color scheme. Not directing this to any certain people just a generalized statement. Judges are people who judge on a certain critiria and sometime a personal preference can come into play. But hey you cant please them all but at the end of the day its the builder who needs to be satisfied with their build and not a judging panel. 

And I know that my models are not to everyones liking but I really dont care because its me who has to look at the real thing everyday. There is alot of great talent here and not everything is perfect, if everything had to look the same modeling would be quite boring and plain. Too cookie cutter like. Now how about some more model building already! I need more B-17 and BF109's to fix my hunger fix.

Given this last posting by Bomber Boy thn an apology should be given to all of the IPMS Judges for the subject line of the initial post.  Your post cast doubt on the integreity of a large population of quality judges, myself included, when in fact you're just griping about an odd ball contest that you entered and didn't like the results.  Now all I have to say is Live and Learn and don't go back to that event if you don't like how they scored you.

In any case there is simply NO way to evaluate the quality of your builds by looking at photographs shot from three feet away.  A quality judge is looking from a few inches away for those DEFECTS that make the entry unworthy of further consideration in the category.  No matter how large or small the category.  If you want to increase the likelihood of awards then I suggest to limit yourself to categories with little in the way of interest like pre-1935 civilian or the like.

Stilk, thanks for the info in all my research I never came across any of that info. consider it taken under advisement. I'll be sure to ask next time.

SF. there were NO categories except AIRCRAFT you could put any scale or type in YOUR grouping as I explained before. This was not a standard IPMS contest, had it been I would have been in several cats, and I would expect most not to even place, I GET IT , in this show you are only judged on that one model alone not the ones around it , just that ONE, and I don't think weathering subjectiveness should have knocked any out of at least bronze, in a show where every model in the building could win a medal. I got a two for those spits when 1 point was given just for glueing it together.

8th Pilot, 

This is the most popular and competitive category in most contests.

Your Spitfires look good yet realize the competition here has brought their AAA game. Some may have only built one aircraft over a year or more to enter this division.

Nothing short of perfection will earn a gold in this category.

The twin engine bombers are in the next most popular aircraft category. '1/72 scale two or more props' Without seeing what was entered there I would say you did good.

To place well one needs to put in the extra effort. Vacuum formed windshields, resin cockpits and well executed scratch built details are just some of the modifications that will bring a entry to the next level.

'Expect nothing and hope to be pleasantly surprised'

When entering in a contest, you never know when or where the top modelers are going to place their efforts. Be certain they do enter the categories with the toughest competition.

Ok, sorry, just now noticed the second pictures for your spit....so disregard concerning the chipping on the wing. Your Stuka looks really good to me and I wouldn't have noticed from the pic that the decals were home made. Good job on that! I do have to agree that the powder residue on the wings isn't correct and some of the chipping along the cowling and wing tips is a little over done. I did notice some on areas that are fabric so you might want to look at that. But over all, the builds look great.

One thing that I do notice is that the silvering on your two spitfires is out of place. Ground crews would never walk down the middle of the wings. The only areas of the wings that crews would or even could walk on were alongside the cockpit and down the leading edge to access the gun covers. If you look are your decals, the black line that runs along the wing, it should say "no walk"...basically from that ling back to the flaps, there should be no walking....so there should be no paint chipping. But from what I can tell your silvering alongside the cockpit looks ok.

As for Your He.111, I think it might be slightly overdone on the leading edge, but it looks good. As for the F-4C, that Aim-9 is from another era and is not relevant to the time frame of the heat seekers that you have on there.

I have entered at the dutch nationals about three or four times. Never won anything but had a good time.

I remember entering a 1/48 Avia B.35, a vacform, beautifully finished with a pastel post shading. Took me months to build. But it did not win.......why........because the wings where not square....Lesson learend: most of the times it is about the basics, not about the shade of your paint or the amount of weathering.

There have been a lot of constructive comments and suggestions here so far.

Regardless of how good you think your work is, I would want to see the other winning models before forming an opinion about whether any of your entries should have won.  I've entered models in contests that I thought were masterpieces only to come away with nothing due to the quality of the competition.  On the other hand, I once won a award at a regional IPMS contest with an "average" model that I entered on a whim.  A lot of it depends on who else shows up...

Also, using a "gate guard" aircraft as a reference isn't a particularly good idea, as they are often times inaccurate. 

Good luck to you. 

Mark

Ok, i just did a bit of checking in my library to make sure I was remembering correct info. The 4th transitioned to F-4Ds in 1967 and flew them until 1970 when they transitioned to the F-4E. They flew the F-4E until 1990 when they transitioned to F-15Es. When they flew the F-4Ds, the tail codes were :SA, SB, and SC. At that time each squadron had  a different second letter. This was standard throughout TAC at that time. Tail codes were in white. The SJ tail codes for the whole wing came with the F-4Es in 1970. That is around the time that the Air Force changed tail codes to a wing level rather than squadron level. Black wing identifier tail codes, SJ,  did not appear until the late 1970s when the whole Air Force began to tone down their markings. The gate guard you used as a reference is shown marked in a manner that the F-4Ds would not have had when flown by the 4th. That is not uncommon for military posts. Display items are often historically suspect.

I like your 4th Fighter Group/Wing theme. I am doing that with a few different units. The 67th Fighter Squadron, that an old friend of mine's father flew F-86s with. And the 57th FIS because I like the look of those Iceland based interceptors.

As far as oil and gas goes, lets just say that I have had my fair share of exposure to the stuff, military and civilian. I wont get into a urinary contest about it, but POL products for the military have to meet certain standard- Mil Specs. It's not the cheapest stuff you're getting at the auto supply store or corner gas station. I know the Germans are just as, if not more so, very stringent on military standards for their stuff too. And yes motor oil gets pretty dirty, especially in the back of an old Bug. But fuel overfill of Aviation Fuel or Jet Fuel is subject to airflow across the wing surface that the engine of your Bug never will 200+ knots on those bombers, 300+ on the prop fighters, and the jets....

How many of the judges who judged your builds did you speak with to get feedback on your entries? Don't get me wrong, I like your builds and I really like the beat up finish you produce. But I think if you dial it back in a few areas as suggested here, your next time entering in the same contest will get you better placing results. Or maybe you can try your hand with armor builds

stikpusher

Personally, I like them all. Beautiful builds. Of course not having the up close and personal look at the builds there is no way for us to look for the basic construction things that the judges were looking for mentioned previously. 

But I have issues with a few of the builds. The F-4C I can name several historical issues with the markings, and now that I see them the late model Sidewinder is a huge historical gaffe, that unless you have photos of that bird as depicted I can say it falls flat in the accuracy department. Using a color profile as opposed to a photgraph for antenna configuration is not a good idea. The artists who draw or paint the profiles occasionally take artistic license liberties if they do not have reference of their own. Across the board, I must ask why do you depict fuel overfill stains as dark as gun blast soot or exhaust stains? Fuel and oil are transluscent and even when they pick up dust while on the ground from the surrounding environment it wont take on the look of soot.

 

As I have stated and conceded the antenna on 51 was a goof( lesson learned there).

For the F-4 in all the photos I've looked at I see very few that have load out reference so I succumb to building as per instructions and as said before it was an OOB build and they were in the box when one of the others vanished. This plane was to depict a fictitious plane of the 4th, I'm trying to build one of each that flew for the 4th, ie: the Spit, The 86, P-51 and F-4 all from 4th, and here is the reference.

although in this photo there is no chief on this side but the 4th's shield i have seen it this way on other F-4s with the shield on other side as this has. I just used this tail no as well. The rest of the markings are OOB.

Here is the answer to the dark staining I drive a 1971 VW and have been working on them for over 30 years now, I have seen oil and gas and know they are translucent until they get every where and it does turn almost black and it use to be worse when it was REAL GAS and OIL not the stuff they sell today, heck 30 years ago when I started working on them sone oil was almost black comin' out the round metal toped can, much less 65-70 years ago. Those are german aircraft so I applied what I know to it, agree or not that is my answer to your query, and as you stated I can't show you up close and personal but they are not quite as dark in those spots as they appear in photo. 

Please enlighten me in the inaccuracies of said planes.  As I do wish them to be as correct as possible even if fictitious in nature. 

This all started as to why the only crits were for weathering alone Not accuracies and construction which I willingly accept my faults, but not the subjectivity. I'm willing to learn and will research much more diligently  from now on, thought I was doing well in that area, guess not.

James

Personally, I like them all. Beautiful builds. Of course not having the up close and personal look at the builds there is no way for us to look for the basic construction things that the judges were looking for mentioned previously. 

But I have issues with a few of the builds. The F-4C I can name several historical issues with the markings, and now that I see them the late model Sidewinder is a huge historical gaffe, that unless you have photos of that bird as depicted I can say it falls flat in the accuracy department. Using a color profile as opposed to a photgraph for antenna configuration is not a good idea. The artists who draw or paint the profiles occasionally take artistic license liberties if they do not have reference of their own. Across the board, I must ask why do you depict fuel overfill stains as dark as gun blast soot or exhaust stains? Fuel and oil are transluscent and even when they pick up dust while on the ground from the surrounding environment it wont take on the look of soot.

Hans von Hammer

Just took a quick look, this is what I saw..

Spitfires: Shoudn't be that much gun residue on the wings from the cannons.. Only the outboard MGs..

"G" and "A" decals out of register..

Hans thanks for the crit I enjoy your post, you have a way with words I do not possess. I'm not real good with words has something to do with a LD so they say and some times I come off as brash but that is not my intent by any means.

It was just this side the other seems ok, don't have photo, and I at that time got a little nervous about trying to cut them but now would do so in a minute, in fact most are hand cut now that I print my own most often, just had to get over the fear. All decals on Stuka are home made.

James

Just took a quick look, this is what I saw..

Spitfires: Shoudn't be that much gun residue on the wings from the cannons.. Only the outboard MGs..

"G" and "A" decals out of register..

Geof

Hmm, interesting post. I have to agree with most, it seems BB has a huge amount of bravado invested in his kits. The results were good, I'd like to see shots of the models that won for comparisons sake. I too believe most of these are either over done, or have some flaws in the weathering approach/realism. 6 outta 10 ain't bad. I'd be pretty stoked.

Here are the ones I submitted All more shots if you like but here is one of each. I don't have any other contestants and since I was not competing against them, only on my own merit. What I do have reference for on this computer I will add as well. I do my Bio work on a PC as it has all my adobe apps on it but I do have some on my laptop.

the two Spits (None) 1/48

The Stuka and engine (silver) 1/24

F-86 1/48 (Br)

P-51D (br)

I didn't find out until after I had drilled the canopy that they didn't use that antenna after a certain point but it was in my reference as pictured.

F-4C (none) 1/48

F-4J (none) 1/48

Granted it does now have a slight shadow along the top seam as it got cold the night before show and it cracked the putty but you must have a flashlight to see shadow, very faint.

He 111 H6 and H22 (br both) 1/48

Ju 88 (Br) 1/48

There you go.

In a side note I have built all of these kits since last Jan when they had there last show which I also attended and judged. I have a Very Loving Wife !!!!

James