I ask What The H#!! Judges?

The obvious solution to your problem is clear...

Only build dioramas...  Most of the really anal judges stear well-clear of them, and historical accuracy is much more important... That turns most of them off...

I have over 680 1/700 WWII ships built and I know their are others out there that look better then mine ( and I don't care I'm still PROUD of my fleet ). That being said your planes look GREAT. Keep up the good work and don't let these box art modelers or judges get you down, your better than that and your letting them get the best of you.

Best of luck and your models look like the real thing. BE PROUD.

Hmm, interesting post. I have to agree with most, it seems BB has a huge amount of bravado invested in his kits. The results were good, I'd like to see shots of the models that won for comparisons sake. I too believe most of these are either over done, or have some flaws in the weathering approach/realism. 6 outta 10 ain't bad. I'd be pretty stoked.

stikpusher

The side view of the Spit is much more flattering. But it also reveals issues about the nose weathering- the spinner and props compared to the cowling are inconsistant. Easily explained-
Spit AB123 received a new prop and spinner on Feb 30th due to damage- but that does not take away from visual impressions.

But to enter 10 kits in a contest and expect all to place gold/1st is pretty arrogant and unrealisitic. Not all kits win. Thick skin is a must. While we are usually our own worst critics, we also are our own best cheerleaders. To see our hard efforts not win or place every time is part of the game. If you cant live with that part, dont play. We have a "display only" section every month at our IPMS meetings/contests.

Never said anything about getting gold on ALL not by a long shot, and I say most of my entrees, and I openly acknowledge there were flaws they did not mention, just the weathering was mentioned.

Let me explain the over all contest gist as to categories there was AIRCRAFT, SHIPS, ARMOR, ETC. Had I been at a regular IPMS show with 1,2,3, I would have been divided by several categories including several OOBs, not all 10 in one category but here you put all your planes together side by side, if you got tanks they go over there, and that is that. The feel of this show is to judge you against you, and as conceded as it may seem I don't think I'm any where near not getting at least bronze, when most of the reason is for weathering and not construction. Each model is judged on 1-5, 5 being the best in two stages 1) construction, 2) finish  with a couple add 1 for  impression and 1 for accuracy(documentation), and a subtract 1 for inaccuracy ie a purple P-51 without documentation. one only need get 7 total points for bronze. YOU could and some did get a medal for every kit. I understand all of what you are saying about booo hooo but it is not that, it was set up that way. The Spit in question scored two 2s and nothing for accuracy, and the only crit was the weathering, really the construction a two, when the requirement for getting a 1 is that it is glued together? Not crying just confused. I judged a guy at this show on his first attempt at a show Gaps everywhere no sanding and silvering on every decal. He didn't make bronze but and when he approached me with questions I gave him the crit on those things and told him how to avoid slivering but I never discussed his weathering attempts as the reason, but did offer "TIPS" for that as well, since he asked. 

I am happy with what I came away with I just feel that some thing so subjective shouldn't have such an effect, especially when documented. 

oh yeah as to the spinner / prop question after reviewing the photos and before the show that was corrected, as when the pic was taken it had just been put on to take photo no even glued. Now to discoloration on the elevators and top of rudder it is light sea gray  not sliver, as painted cloth will retain some color after bits chip off and being that it is painted after resined it to will chip and wear just as the metal will just NOT silver but light sea gray I can see it.

James

Manstein's revenge

There's no crying in modeling...

There's lots of crying in modeling.  I usually do mine during the painting stage! 

I just think it's awfully arrogant to think that 10 models in one contest will all earn hardware.  I have no problem with a couple entries in a category though.  Most of my stuff falls into one or two categories.  Unless you're in a really small contest, expecting all of your entries to place is rediculous.  Six out of ten and he's griping about the four that didn't?? 

Hopefully he'll take away something from all this though. 

In addition to these helpful comments (which I hope you are taking in the spirit in which they are given).  The primary issue was mentioned in a couple of the posts.  3 judges, 15 to perhaps 25 single-engine prop entries in the category.  The point is NOT to look at every model at the detail level.  The point is to eliminate models that contain OBVIOUS flaws until you are left with the four or five gems in the category.  Only then do the judges spend ANY time considering the subtle things many of you are discussing.  Weathering, accuracy of the load out, intensity of pre- or post-shading.  This is all stuff left to separate the best of the best.  They are NOT what is used on any of the models with OBVIOUS flaws.

My beef sometimes arises when head judges want to split a category that does NOT contain enough quality models.  Nothing bothers me more than being forced to give a second or third place award to a model with a crooked stab or a misaligned prop or landing gear.   Judges should not split categories just to give our more awards so everyone feels better.  Want an award??  Build a contest winning model!!

Nice models. There's easily a 30% +/- deviation from person to person when it comes to judging so it is not totally unexpected.

Curious about the comment about trophy hound....I actually plan to enter an up coming contest with a lot of models in a lot of categories (10-12) - one model for each category except OOB ones in the aircraft, auto, sci-fi, ships and diorama areas. Would that be frowned upon? I mean I, too frown upon entering multiple models in one category, especially when taking out 1, 2, 3 (the system should've taken care of that happening).

There's no crying in modeling...

The side view of the Spit is much more flattering. But it also reveals issues about the nose weathering- the spinner and props compared to the cowling are inconsistant. Easily explained-
Spit AB123 received a new prop and spinner on Feb 30th due to damage- but that does not take away from visual impressions.

But to enter 10 kits in a contest and expect all to place gold/1st is pretty arrogant and unrealisitic. Not all kits win. Thick skin is a must. While we are usually our own worst critics, we also are our own best cheerleaders. To see our hard efforts not win or place every time is part of the game. If you cant live with that part, dont play. We have a "display only" section every month at our IPMS meetings/contests.

@ Doog

Couldn't agree more.

I got one silver. In Junior. Back in 2009. And I have entered a few years.

I'm still happy.

When faced with a category full of jewels the minor flaws become the focus.

Realize a big competition is a lot of work to host and judge. Time schedules need to be adhered to so before a category becomes a stalemate its easier to sort through using a process of elimination.

For example I admire the European style of highlighting and weathering yet find it rather overdone to be realistic. I cringe seeing Panzer gray a shade of blue, much as yellow dry brushed over green.

Next time appreciate the competitors efforts and their style of Kung-fu. Every contest is unique in what is considered excellent modeling.

I had the same feelings getting nothing at a contest. Yet after posting the question here it soon came out why. The track was not touching a lower road wheel! Recalled the struggles the tracks caused and how I wanted to move on, still no excuse for a obvious mistake. The model was pried off its base and corrected as much as possible, the error was still noticeable so 'creative camouflage' was used to hide the offending track. The next contest it took gold!

Heavily weathered models may not award high as a 'clean build' at that particular event. Try entering a different contest for piece of mind. If still nothing save the heavy weathering for after the contest.

For one thing, on that Spit, IMHO you did go too far with the gun soot residue on the cannon....normally, there are soot stains on the wings with flush-mounted gun barrels.  But with cannon that stick out so far forward of the leading edge, I dont ever recall seeing such heavy staining on the wing like that.  Also, as pointed out earlier, bare metal showing through on fabric-covered surfaces isnt right either.  I just cannot believe that you came in here pitching such a big fit when you scored 6 out of 10.  judges are people, and they dont all think the same way.  If that causes this much concern for you, then perhaps you should not take models to shows. 

EDIT--look at the front of that Spit.  The spinner and prop look brand-new black, while the nose of the airframe has rather weird extensive chipped paint.  How likely is that on a real aircraft?  For one thing, prop blades and spinners do not stay spotless black for long, and this aircraft has heavy paint weathering.  For another, there is no reason why that paint on the nose would be so worn--same for the wingtips. 

If you dont like the answers you are getting, remember this--you came here asking for them.  It seems to me that you are trying to justify pitching a fit--and also that you dont like the answers you are getting.

Could be worse.  At my last show, my model was overlooked and not even judged.

Then again, mine aren't as good as yours so maybe that was a blessing!

Ok let me Clear a few things. 1) I was one judge of Three, in Three teams, I did not judge my models another team of three judged Them. 2) I live way away form where this show was held and since it was a GSB show I don't feel slighted by not being one of the boys.  I'm satisfied with the way and how I build models and think I have a lot to offer others as well as a lot to learn from others, that is why I pose the question. 3) I have and present  documentation of every model I build as well as a sheet detailing kit name, material, paint, scratch and Photo/resin notations, not one was looked at. I as a judge read said material of each model I did Judge. 

I got some what of an answer as to the load out and I said I could be wrong and I"ll eat that one( should have done a bit more research). I just figured as it was an OOB build (which is shown with model at show attached to about Bio with paper clip) since one of the (I don't have time to research proper name) white tipped ones disappeared as has not been seen since I used one of an extra set that came with it, My Bad.

More later, as I say I have this on three sites and I have to write to all at once and paste so I'll be in and out to respond and I'm glad we all talking.  I most likely will display only from now on, as I don't see some ever getting what I mean by all this.

James

 I now see that this thing comes off a little heavier than I really intended.  I also think that the pic I chose in hindsight was a little bit flashy so here is another.

now keep in mind with this photo the door is a bit unhinged as I hit it just before the shot and didn't notice it till after, it was repaired for the show. Also I should have taken a hit for the decal misalignment but did not it was the weathering. 

So, let me see if I get this right.  You placed, were recognized, for six models out of ten.  You brought home six pieces of hardware for your models.  It sounds to me like you're trying to possibly stack the deck.  Maybe try to sweep a category or two?  Get real, man!   You're a trophy hound!  Might as well just go to a trophy shop and buy some hardware.

In addition to the above, I also found an article from one of the 366th TFW Phantom drivers...he said that in order to carry the gun pod, the plane had to fly without  2 of the possible 4 Sidewinders.  So it appears that your loadout is not proper for more than one reason.  Aside from that, there is nothing realistic about all that bare metal showing on the Spitfire's wings and elevators. 

Here's the short answer--if you're that thin-skinned about not getting medals on a lousy four of your TEN planes, and aren't happy with at least one silver, you shouldn't be entering in contests. Model for yourself and don't compete.

Some guys would be just fine with ONE "bronze", or a "3rd".

Dude....seriously.....

I was in a show once where the judges kid took 3rd and it was made from Legos. Talk about WTF! another where a judge was looking at his own spitfire

Spoken like a non judge if ever I heard one.  It's just like complaining about running a stop sign because you don't like the rules that govern driving arguing that you made such a fantastic drift around the corner and you'd never have been able to to it if you had stopped first.  If you going to enter a contest then learn the rules and build to the rules.  If you want to enter a great looking model that is full of defects in craftsmanship then feel free to do so just don't gripe about the results.

I was in the very same boat in 1999.  Started volunteering to judge and by 2004 I was building Best in Show models.  In both cases I was building great looking models!!  But by 2004 I was building great CONTEST models.  There is a difference and god willing there will always be a difference.

There is nothing wrong with building for fun or building for historical accuracy.  BUT is you're going to build for an IPMS contest understand that you can have the best looking model in the world but misaligned horizontal stabs or landing gear of ordinance and going to leave you out in the cold with regard to receiving 123 or GSB awards.

Well I cant see any specks on the windshield of your 111, so I cant say what they saw. But if it's dust trapped in Future, yes I would gig that as a judge. On aircraft I am pretty sure it is Standard Operating Procedure, for ground crew to clean the windscreen and other critical visibility areas before each sortie. Visibility in the air is a life and death matter- is that a speck of dust of an enemy fighter.

As far as the silvering goes, in my view, yes on those two Spits its excessive. Yes at the base of both wings where the crew chief and pilot stand obviously have the most foot traffic, but the areas adjacent to the ammo bays strikes me as too much. The armorers are not on the wings as often as the pilot and crew-chief. Not every flight is an armed combat flight. And maybe its just the flash in the pics, but the elevators should not be any bare metal showing- those are doped fabric, not metal. And why on the wingtips?

Yes military aircraft in wartime get faded, stained, worn, etc. But conversely their service lives are comparatively short. They are shot down or replaced by newer improved variants within a comparatively short time span.

Your best antidote for things you think may be questionable at a contest is to bring references for the kit being entered. Yes weathering is very subjective as to what is too little or too much. But having a reference photo to enter showing a similar subject in a similar state will head off those issues. Yes judges are first supposed to judge basic construction- seams, alignment, gaps, etc. But once its past that and all other things being equal, it comes down to the judges being subjective based upon their knowledge and experience. If you enter a kit in a contest, yes it is normal to expect to place or win, but sometimes the competition is just plain better. I have had that happen more than  few times. Kits I expected to do well sometimes don't place,and others that I thought would be lucky to place win 1st prize. it is what it is. Just curious, but is it not unusual to allow someone who enters a contest also to judge? It becomes a conflict of interest then and certainly smacks of ethical issues.

Regarding your load out of Sidewinders, yes it could be very unrealistic from a historical standpoint- was that version of AIM-9 operational at the time the aircraft is depicted? An AIM-9L in 1973 could not happen. Or from a service standpoint- was that version ever used by that service- After the AIM-9B and until the AIM-9L the Air Force and Navy had separate versions that each used. No Air Force Phantom is likely to be seen with an AIM-9C/D/G as those were Navy.

Judges....I am a retired US Marine,30 years.18 years in rotory wing,HMLA UH-1Ns and AH-1 s.I have seen weathering,salt effects.sand blasting effects on A/C.I even have pictures.1988 went to IPMS show in San Diego,had 1/48 Tamiya F4F Wildcat.Went to town on detail ,painting,weathering.

Came time for contest,other modelers were asking me how I did the painting and weathering.Thier words not mine ..."looks so real".A/C did not even place.Head judge says to me ......color scale wrong.In 1/48 the FS med blue would be a different shade.My thought was ..WTFO.

Took same model to "local" show at March AFB modelfest.Same A/C only thing I did was fix antenna that got broke.A/C got 2nd place in show !st in catagory.!st in show was 1/48 F-105D that was outstanding.Judges never been in or around real A/C.Scale color.Best Judges are fellow modelers standing next to you.

As a member of IPMS who routinely judges at almost every contest I attend as well as having been a head judge on many occasions I have to take a brief moment to point out that your assessment couldn't be further from accurate.

Your initial assumption is totally incorrect and this becomes the basis for why you don't understand how your aircraft are being judged during contests.

Leaving the GSB vs 123 judging argument aside I will call your attention to the IPMS Judging criteria which CLEARLY place craftsmanship above historical accuracy.  You ability to mimic or fail to mimic a historical photograph with your artistry bears little value upon the judging criteria.  Craftsmanship is key yo successful modeling for contests.  This is the reason why no photographic evidence is necessary for IPMS contests.  If you leave an improperly finished seam (even a single one) it destroys your ability to place well in the contest venue.

You must understand that contest judging does NOT begin with evaluating the best LOOKING models.  When a team of judges approaches a group of models on the table to be judged the first things looked at are those craftsmanship items.  Models failing to meet the craftsmanship evaluation simply fall by the wayside and receive no additional evaluation from then on.  The grouping is whittled down to only those models remaining that meet the craftsmanship standards.  When I evaluate a grouping, misalignment in vertical and horizontal plane, seams, blemishes to canopies (including crap left behind on the inside!). Many many many times great LOOKING models are left behind because of silvering on decals, poorly masked frames on canopies (remember that even in 1/32 scale you should see NO evidence of wavy lines along a frame.  Metal frames will be straight and true even at full scale perhaps with no more that 1/8" run out along the length.  Divide that by 32 and you fins no possibility for the wavering visible in many cockpit painting attempts.  IN 1/72 scale any such hand-painting or mis-masked blemishes are simply not possible.

I strongly recommend that at your next contest you volunteer to judge in a category for which you have no entries and learn something about the process before you rail against it.  It will improve your building immensely.  Of course you are welcome to continue building very nice LOOKING models, however CONTEST models are a very different thing indeed.