Bf-109: Reich Defender GB The End

Great work Sidure, those mikew grant instrument decals look the biz. Ive not used them but have heard loads of good things about em.

Ive had pc probs (This is my standin) and have taken my kit out of the box. Im really surprised with it. Usually Hasa kits are sink mark free but i have a beauty, right in the centre of oine of the wheels!! I got on the phone and have ordered some resin wheels for it. While i was at it ive ordered the quickboost exhausts, as they are really nice and cheap. I also ordered some Luftwaffe seat belts as the the ones molded to the resin seat are really awfull. Very light moldings and unrealistically posed. The Pit isnt Aeries as i thought but CMK. The rest of the pit looks very nice. One of the resin rudder pedals has broken but thats no biggy. When i get a splash of paint on the pit ill post some pics.

Oh, on the right sidewall, there is no sign of the fuel line? Did the K's not have one in the pit?

All available pics of a K-4 pit gratefully recieved

...Guy

P.S, fantastic photos Scott, thx for posting.

Luftwoller wrote:

While i was at it ive ordered the quickboost exhausts, as they are really nice and cheap.

Quickboost makes resin exhausts for the Hasegawa G? I could only find them for the Fujimi kit.

 Still digging away at the diff between the G-10 and the K pits.  I had a great reply but my computer caught fire while I was typing and I lost it.  Aires has 2 pit sets in new tooling. The one that Stan mentioned earlier for the K . He says it is the best out at the moment and I tend to believe him on the 109 subject. Not that he would know. Can't even answer a question about a hose? Kidding of course. Got some super experts here and I am learning much.

There is also a G-10 pit set. The only place it was in stock was Great Models so wish me luck there.  I bit the bullet and ordered it I mean hey they gotta get an order right sometime don't they? My goal is to start out simple and finish strong using skills and info learned here from you all! Seems you have bought all the 109 kits though?

Anyways if this G-10 pit set works out perhaps Stan and I can compare pics and notes and see if there are essential diffs in them or at least in the pit sets.

hkshooter wrote:

Luftwoller wrote:  While i was at it ive ordered the quickboost exhausts, as they are really nice and cheap. Quickboost makes resin exhausts for the Hasegawa G? I could only find them for the Fujimi kit.

Yup there the kiddies. They should fit without any hassles at all.

...Guy

sfcmac wrote:

I been researching all day. Trying to figure out if the G-10 and K-4 had different pit layouts or if the G-10 was a German Kitbash of older types to get them to a a K standard. Went back reread the whole thread and saved lotsa pics. My mind is reeling! Seems I have heard that pit question before regarding the G-10 vs the K but I can't find it.

According to Messerschmitt Bf 109 F, G, and K Series: An Illustrated Study

Scott thanks alot for the pics. I actually have not seen a fully painted white canopy frame before with the exception of the few propaganda photo's taken of 2 F's. I was throwing around the idea of doing hartmann's G-14 in winter camo for the up comming nationals. Still might. i'll have to add that info to my pile of stuff. I think it would look great in 1/24 scale.

Ok It's the weekend so now I have time. Someone needs a K-4 cockpit pic. I think I have both a G-10 and K-4 resin cockpit here.  I know I have a G-10, but I built 2 K-4's in the last 6 to 8 months so I may have used my supply of resin K-4 cockpits. They would make a good comparsion.

No The K-4 has no fuel line in it. The fuel line was in the F/G cockpits.   

I'll get back with those pics.

You're welcome gentlemen.  I think between all of us we should be able to unravel some of the mysteries of these late war aircraft.

According to the same book I quoted above " Messerschmitt Bf 109 F, G, and K Series: An Illustrated Study " pg156:

"The G-10, production of which ran from October 1944 until the end of the war, resulted from conversions of older series, like the G-6 and G-14.  As a result it was referred to as a 'bastard aircraft' inf the Bf 109 type sheet.  It was not actually a further development of the G-Series, rather it represented an attempt to bring older, repairable machines up to the standard of the K-4 which was being manufactured in parallel, through a conversion process.  The object was to supplement production of the new K-4 with repaired aircraft of almost equal value in the cheapest manner possible."

This is why it gets so tricky to identify Bf 109Gs and Ks.  Here is are some excerpts referring to the Bf 109G-10.

From page 158:

"It was obviously intended to carry out the conversions of older airframes in a standard manner.  In fact, however, attempts to achieve a standard model G-10 quite obviously failed, because the G-10 appeared in the same plethora of variants as did the G-6 and G-14.  An essential component of the modernization was to have been the installation of the DB 605 D engine, which was supposed to enter quantity production in the autumn of 1944.  Obviously, however, the engine was not available in sufficient numbers at the beginning of the G-10 program, and many of the first machines from production batches 490000 and 491000 were fitted with the DB 605 AS and were accordingly designated as the G-10/AS"

From page 159:

"Due to the diverse nature of the aircraft which were converted and the availability of components, many combinations of wings, tail units and tailwheels were to be seen on the G-10.  Some aircraft had the older wing with small mainwheel bulges and the short tailwheel of the G-6.  On the other hand there was a whole series of machines which had the large, rectangular wing fairings to accomodate the 660 x 190 mainwheels and the longer, non-retractable tailwheel.  Such machines are known, for example, in production batch 613000.  However, there were also examples of both possible combinations of old and new wings and tailwheels."

From page 161:

"The vast majority of G-10s received the enlarged fin and rudder, however machines are known with the early small tail.  The shape of the rudder was not standardised.  There were aircraft whose rudder featured the Flettner tab only, as well as examples with the Flettner tab and two fixed tabs.  The shape of the rudder was in no way connected to the type of tailwheel used, so that both types were to be seen with the early tailwheel as well as the later, long version."

Another little tidbit is that the use of the Erla-Haube was apparently standard on the G-10 (probably the only thing that was!  )

For those of you with 1/32 Hasegawa Bf 109 kits (and maybe their 1/48 scale kits as well) that there is an awkward step on the inderside of the fuselage when you attach the center portion that is in line with the wings.

Here is a little tip I picked up from Floyd S. Werner, Jr.'s DVD "Building the Bf109G-6" to correct the problem.  

Following Floyd's tip I cut strips of .005" Evergreen Sheet Styrene and attached them to the rear of the part on the inner surfaces so as to raise the outer surface to make it flush with the rest of the fuselage.  After they were attached and the glue had dried I carefully trimmed the edges so they'd be flush with the edges of the kit part ensuring a good, snug fit.  Doing this makes for much better fit and should theoretically eliminate the need for any seam filling there. 

That book does have some good info, but be aware that it was printed in the early 90's so some of it is out of date. There is no G-10/AS. Mitt reg built G-10's that were powered by the AS engine were simply known as G-10's. Most researchers now call them early mitt reg G -10's. There were actually G-14/AS that were on the line during the G-14 to G-10 production change. What you actually have is a G-14/AS with a G-10 production and data plate nothing more. Not all G-10's were recycled airframes. In fact most are now know to be new builds. The confussion lies in that all G-10 have 2 data plates. This is because a G-10 is a G-14 with K-4 parts and most times the K-4's DM or DCM engine added. If the mechine has 2 production plates and 2 data plates then it 's a recycle.

what is right is the G-10 has no standereds. Being the last 109 built they used whatever was on hand to complete an airframe. Couple this with regenerated airframes and you get a whole mess of Late G-6, G-14, AS and even a little K-4 add on's. It is now know that messerschmitt built very few G-10's (as powered mechines only) instead building the K-4. WNF built the vast majority of the G-10's. It is also known that the late build 770 block G-10's were built with K-4 radio equiptment, DCM engines, and possibly 30mm cannons. They were also running 1.98 to 2.02 boost like the K-4. There speed was slightly less then that of the K-4.     

 Ok Stan now we are talking clear as coffee. I think between Scott and you I can safely get the gist of it. A true G-10 was an attempt to convert an older airframe to K standards. End of war chaos allowing for much confusion and less standardization.

This would lead me to a more specific question. I managed to scroung a 1/48 Hasegawa G-10 "Jg 300" With one of the markings being the long rectangular GB badge with the Green and white DoR stripe. Green 11 and red 2 with a red Dor stripe.  I made need to take pics of the sprues if you are unfamiliar with it but my question is......

 When built how would you know this is not a K version aside from the markings? I guess I need a 1/48 Hasegawa K to compare with. Diff could be as small as a data plate?

Steve- Looks like you're a great job with the detail they provided.

Scott- Thank you for those photos and the info on the winter camo!  Like Stan, I had never seen photos of any 109's with white canopy parts.  I shall store those photos for future reference as well.   Also, great tip on the wing joint for the 1/32 Hasegawa birds.  I haven't checked the fit on mine, but shall as soon as I finish typing this.  I think you have saved me a lot of work!

Stan- Man, you are definately living up to your reputation as "The 109 Guy"!  Fascinating bits of info there.  I shall add that to my ever growing G-10 library.

I started making the seatbelts for mine, using the Eduard 1/32 set but substituting lead foil from an expensive single malt Scotch label for the belts.  I used the PE hardware, and am quite pleased with them.  The photo doesn't do them justice, looking like a glob of silver metal.  Planning to finish the shoulder straps this weekend along with the gunsight details, and IP lights so I can start painting the office on this beast.

sfcmac wrote:

Ok Stan now we are talking clear as coffee. I think between Scott and you I can safely get the gist of it. A true G-10 was an attempt to convert an older airframe to K standards. End of war chaos allowing for much confusion and less standardization. This would lead me to a more specific question. I managed to scroung a 1/48 Hasegawa G-10 "Jg 300" With one of the markings being the long rectangular GB badge with the Green and white DoR stripe. Green 11 and red 2 with a red Dor stripe.  I made need to take pics of the sprues if you are unfamiliar with it but my question is......  When built how would you know this is not a K version aside from the markings? I guess I need a 1/48 Hasegawa K to compare with. Diff could be as small as a data plate?

You mean how do you tell a G or G-10 from a k-4? That's an easy one. K-4's other then general shape are pretty much completely different. The K is a new aircraft all together. The easiest way to tell the difference is the K-4's have no compass hatch, fuel fiiler port are in different locations,  radio hatch is moved and in a different location. Also K-4's  have rear gear doors, fuel primer in different location (new fuselage). New wing dura aluminum/wood wing has slightly different slant's, different access hatches, and oxygen fillers ports. The insides of the K-4 are totally different then any G. The only thing's not relocated are the MW50 tank and main fuel cell. The cockpit of a G-10 is the same as a late G-14. The K-4 cockpit only the left bulkhead is similar. G-14/AS and G-10's are a different story. Since some G-10 are G-14/AS the only real way to ID  some G-10's is by the data plate. D powered G-10's are slightly easier to tell apart from eariler G's for still not easy.

In a nut shell you are right sfmac, G-10 were nothing more than an attempt to get as many airframes in the air as possible and still make them a match for late war allied fighters like the P-51D/K-25-Re, P-47D-25/40, Tempest MK. V and the all new spitfire MK. 21. 

Now if the reich only had a way to supply C-3 to there front line unit's.

phoenix7187 wrote:

Like Kj200 said no gap but there is a step down. This is usually dirty 02.

 Stan,

Do you mind taking a pic of under side and post it?

Thanks

Gumiflex 

phoenix7187 wrote:

what is right is the G-10 has no standereds. Being the last 109 built they used whatever was on hand to complete an airframe.

Add the G-14 to that statement as well, good luck differentiating a late production G-6 from a G-14 without a Werknummer.  But hey, it makes for some interesting discussion!

See Aaron, its obvious...isnt it? LOL. Like the others, im learning new stuff with every post. Keep it up Guru's. Its the stuff that turns a good GB into a Great GB.

With mine, i intend to pose my K-4 with tailwheel doors and inner LG doors. It would be good to see a close up of the inner LG doors to enable me to detail it a touch further, Also, any sign of the K-4 cocpit pics..Nudge nudge LOL.

...Guy

Daywalker wrote:

Mike- Tamiya XF-22 is a good match for RLM 02.  Not exactly sure on a good match for RLM 66.  Tamiya XF-63 is a pretty close match.  I usually undercoat with XF-69 NATO Black and then mist on the XF-63.  HTH!

Not sure if this was already adressed - A great mix for RLM 02 is a 1 to 1 ratio of Tamiya XF-22 RLM Grey and XF-49 Khaki. :)

 Mike! Stan! Guy! Frank!

 Ok I read that last night but waited to re read and note things when I had some rest. I really appreciate you all taking the time to answer questions that I am certain have been answered many times before by Y'all.

Now I was unaware of all the Diffs between the K-4 and the later G models. Guess to keep mistakes at a minimum for me I'll try to stick to a specific Aircraft and go from there. I want to get some pics up of the Hasegawa G-10 kit to show what it is I have to work with and show it off in case any have not seen it opened.

Oops I made those large to be seen hopefully not too big.

The curiosity relating to the given tutorials lies with the sprues. The Fuselage is labled G-10/K

The wings are listed F/G The pit and details are listed as 109G Both G and K wheels are given and the tail flats are listed as K version.  I took pics of all the sprues but wont overload the pics unless there is a question regarding them.

The G pit sprew thru me as I had orginally thought it would be a later pit.

espins1 wrote:

Daywalker wrote: Mike- Tamiya XF-22 is a good match for RLM 02.  Not exactly sure on a good match for RLM 66.  Tamiya XF-63 is a pretty close match.  I usually undercoat with XF-69 NATO Black and then mist on the XF-63.  HTH! Not sure if this was already adressed - A great mix for RLM 02 is a 1 to 1 ratio of Tamiya XF-22 RLM Grey and XF-49 Khaki. :)

A very good match for RLM 66 is XF-65 (I think) German grey.

...Guy

Well, i thought it was about time i did some work on mine. So i did a bit and photographed as i went. I started on the dash panel. This was what came with the CMK cockpit set. For any here who are a little nervous about PE and the acetate backing to make a dash panel. Heres how i did it. You never know some others may get something out of it as well.

First job, I sprayed the PE panel XF-65 German grey, then i painted the surface on the dash panel that would be behing the acetate sheet, white. Also I painted the back of the acetate sheet for the R/H side instruments.

This is how the acetate Intruments look with the white backing. In the 1st pic you can see there a little lifeless.

To attach the acetate to the the PE, I use a drop of future, This also has the effect of making the appearance of lens's to the gauges.

They look pretty good to me.

Here it is all together. On the left side there was an empty ole with no acetate to fill it. So i took an old decal sheet and cut out the decal you can see that seemed the right size and futured that in place.

Heres the end result of my labours.

I also started on the pit (Still need some pics Stan  ). Heres what you get out of the box. You even get a vacformed canopy. You can also see my broken rudder pedal.

Ive started to paint and detail it. But feel i blither on too much. If you want ill post some of the detailing.

...Guy

Sorry guys, let me see if I can catch up here.

Guy I actually couldn't find a good cockpit pic of a K-4. I have tons of E,F,G pit pics. I was about to find this lay out diagram.

Someone wanted to see the lowerr wing of my K-4, snaped a pic of that.

Sfcmac hasegawa recycles an many old sprues as possible. This is were your seeing the funny G/K thing. The cockpit is correct for a G-10. The wing should be Ok as this would be the same as all previous G's. Post a pic for the fuselage halves and I look at those.

Frank has this kit I think, he may be more help.

 Red 2 is a well known 109. it was long thought to be a G-14/AS due to it's short tail wheel, small antenna mast mounted to the canopy and it's AS powered not DM. But it is a G-10. work # 490642 early Erla build. this is an unusual G-10 in that it confirms that G-10 were produced early on with the AS engine. The down side is that becasue it is AS powered it would lack the D engine traits such as deeper oil cooler (987) enlarged supercharger intake, oil return chin buldges, and oil and primer hatch locations. This is way I would need to see the fuselage.

Note front lower cowling, and tail position (short tail wheel)

look closely below Fw. Gzik elbow. 2 data plates can be clearly seen. No doubt this is a G-10. One is rivited right below the other. Only G-10 carried 2 data and production plates. This is one of the first proof postive's that G-10's did infact come equipted with the AS power plant. 

Guy! You are just rotten to the core with all that progress!  Those Elves give you such an advantage! Looks great! The white backing did help a lot!

 Here is the pics of the Fuselage. It is marked as a K sprue and looks to have the larger nose for the turbo's of the K engine which would be wrong. Hmmm I am I learning something!

Heck only have one left here it is.

Me and the elves have been searching for K-4 pics and came across these on Flicka. I personally like the snowy one with all his hatches still on.

http://flickr.com/photos/farinihouseoflove/sets/72157603798060926/

...Guy

That cocpit set looks real nice guy. Good progress. Sorry about the hold up. Busy at work and trying to do some christmass shopping.

Sfcmac, you have the kit and all the pieces to so mosy any D power G-10's. I would go with decal option #2 on that as "red 2" is well known to most 109 nuts as an AS power mechine. But If this does not bother you have at it my friend, I won't say a word

I don't know if your building this OOB but you have 2 IP. The one in the first post is for most G's. The second is actually the wooden IP for the K-4. I don't have any info for the second decal option it looks like  color ? 1 JG 27? I can try to find info on that if you want to go with that.  If your going to do Am decals you can build any D powered G-10 from that kit. Pick out something you like.  The wheel go with the wing buldges there with. "Red 2" would have the small one's.

I'll run through the colors real quick for a late 109 cockpit. Base color RLM 66. IP 66 with black gauge inserts and white dials.The 2 gauges to the lower left are fuel/oil and are a combo red/yellow around  the outside. Anything fuel is yellow, fuel line throttle handle, primer. Red is weapons, oil or in this pic the flap and trim wheel have red on them forget that. Oxgen system parts are with light blue or 66 take your pick. The stick has a brown leather boot at the bottom is either 66 or bare metal in the center with a black grip on top. Refer to my cockpit. K-4's this the same. The circuit breaker box onthe Right buckhead is 66 with white buttons in the K-4.

Frank notice in both t he diogram and this pic your UV lights are shown.

Did I miss anybody?

Aaron-  That's the same kit (box art too!) which I built as Yellow 5 a couple of months ago.  I'd be happy to help you any way I can, although Stan is the real expert on 109's. 

Couple of things about it... (pardon me if this has already been covered)

An extra panel line is present on the upper surface of the wing, between the most outboard line and the one near the inboard end of the aileron:

Also, part number D29 is the K-4 IP, be sure to use part number F19.

As far as the tires/wing bulges, the small bulges Stan mentions (L1 and L2) correspond with the smaller 660 X 160mm tires (L3) and the larger bulges K1 and K2) correspond with the larger 660 X 190mm tires (K3). 

There are four variations that I am aware of for the tail configuration, but only two can be built OOB with this kit.  The rudder depicted in the kit is the metal type, and it comes OOB with the trim tabs intact.  Some aircraft did not have these.  If yours didn't, simply sand them off.  I saw somewhere a drawing showing all of the tail types, but cannot remember where I saw it.

There is a fairly prominant step when you put part A3 (cowl top) onto the fuselage.  This should be faired in.  The real cowl had a small panel line here, but nowhere near as large as the kit.

Carburetor intake should have a weld seam around it, if you want to add it.

The cockpit OOB is missing the large, yellow fuel line.

The inner flap portions do not have a very large maing surface, I added wire to aid there placement.  Otherwise, they fall off regularly!
I hope that helps, there's probably more but that's all I can remember.  If I can be of more help, please ask!

Stan- Thanks for the photo of the UV lights.  Did you happen to find a photo of the gunsight cord mounting?

Guy- Excllent work on that IP!  I may have to bite the bullet one of these days and try some PE enhancements.

 Well Stan I am very thankful you and your fellow 109 enthusiast are here. Here is a pic of the decals which I forgot. If the out of box options are not accurate I can always make one that has the correct parts and or markings.  I do like to play. I have hardly any LATER 109 kits to speak of. The Monogram G something. The Arii G-6, and this Hasegawa kit. Figure if I can good at them I may try a bigger one!

 Thanks a bunch Frank!!! Trying to take it all in.... If you have any sugesstions on what would be a good bird to create with these parts please holler and I will give it a whirl.

/forums/1002062/ShowPost.aspx

 Serves my right being a smart alec..... look at the last post on the above thread.

/forums/996828/ShowPost.aspx

/forums/1006893/ShowPost.aspx

Frank? didn't you do a wip thread for that as well?

Guy- That IP looks incredible!

Stan- Lots of great info, thanks for taking the time to post it!