The Official F-4 Phantom II Group Build 2011

Bockscar

Berny

I always thought those big axe like wedges on the inside and extending out along the fuselage were called 'splitters.' I was told they direct shock waves away from the intakes and fuselage. What did you guys call them, and what are they for?

Thanks

We just called them "Splitter Plates".  It was used to smooth out air flow and prevent shock waves from building up at Mach speeds.  There was the fixed splitter plate and just behind that was the first segment of the Vari Ramps.  That is the parts you see extending in front of the intakes.  Just inside of the intakes is the second segment vari ramp.  The second segment was perforated which allowed excess air to be vented overboard, exiting out of louvers located in the top and bottom if the intakes. 

At Mach speed the vari ramps would extend, closing off part off the intake to slow down supersonic air.  That prevents excessive back pressure from building up inside the intakes causing compressor stalls.  The ramps would start to extend at Mach .98 and would be fully extended at Mach 1.4.

Just inside the intakes on the outboard side is a "T" shaped probe called the "Pressure Temperature Sensor Probe" (PTSP).  The PTSP would measure pressure and temperature and send the data to the CADC (Central Air Data Computer), which would send a signal to the vari ramp controller, that controlled the vari ramps. 

Located inside the intakes, just forward of the engines was the Bell Mouth Ring.  At high Mach speeds it would slide forward (retract) allowing more air to be vented into the engine compartment.  This high speed air would then be vented overboard through the secondary AB exhaust nozzles generating more thrust.  It would start retracting at Mach 1.4 and be fully retracted at Mach 2+.

jimbot58

berny13:

 

jimbot58:

 

I hope you will not mind if I used the Geasel term? I kind of like it.

 

Go right ahead.  From this day on, any one building the F-4G for the group build will refer to it as Geasel.  

Rough as guts

Today's question for the panel 

F-4S  Rear of fuselage, midway between exhaust cans and start of tail there is a panel on each side, covering 72 holes. Edit; as seen in Jimbot's 4th photo on page 29 I presume (wild guess)  this would be where chaff is fired from to prevent a missile strike? If so would the panel be jettisoned when the chaff is deployed ? On the Hasegawa kit it shows to install the covers but before I do I'd better check I'm not wasting an opportunity for extra detail, perhaps a carrier deck diorama servicing scene. I also wonder which way they would hinge?

I haven't noticed these before in my "Google research"

Or perhaps they are just servicing covers for some thingy-ma-jig?

Any ideas out there?

 

They are Photo Flash Cartridges and was used only on the RF-4B, RF-4C, RF-4E, and RF-4EJ.  For all other versions putty over the panels and smooth out with sandpaper.

Rough as guts

Another question? In my research I found a statement from the USS Midway museum that one of her Phantoms claimed the first and also the last Mig kill of the Vietnam war. Can anyone here substantiate the story

And another ?, the initials VF on naval planes stands for what?  Very Fast?

Cheers, RAG.

The VF stands for "Heavier than air, fighter".  If it was VA it would mean "Heavier than air, attack"  That is a throw back when the Navy operated "Gas Bags" or blimps. 

Rough as guts

Another question? In my research I found a statement from the USS Midway museum that one of her Phantoms claimed the first and also the last Mig kill of the Vietnam war. Can anyone here substantiate the story

And another ?, the initials VF on naval planes stands for what?  Very Fast?

Cheers, RAG.

RAG,

For your first question, this is straight from a documented source from a colleague of mine who maintains part of the history.navy.mil site:

"On 12 January 1973, LT V. T. Kovaleski (pilot) and LT J. A. Wise (RIO) of the Midway's VF-161 Chargers downed a North Vietnamese MiG-17 with an AIM-9 Sidewinder launched from their F-4B Phantom II. This was the last air-to-air kill of the Vietnam War."  Sorry I don't have any further documentation than that.  I checked via Wikipedia and it checks out on the USS Midway (CV-41) wiki page, but it doesn't cite any references.

Second question: VF stand for "Fighter Squadron".  USN/USMC non-helo squadrons use "V" for squadron, then "F" for fighter, "A" for attack (not really used much anymore", etc.  So with all the Super Bugs taking over both fighter and attack squadrons, you'll see things like "VFA-103" which would be FIghter/Attack Squadron 103.  Helo squadrons use an "H" instead of a "V".   

Yeh, I'm missing the covers to them on my Recon Bird.  Someone said they were the chaff dispensers.  My Recon Bird is 99% complete, but I can't finish it until the carpet monster decides to have pity on me and cough it up.  It's not a kit for this group build so I am not worrying about it now though.

Rich

Rough as guts

Today's question for the panel 

F-4S  Rear of fuselage, midway between exhaust cans and start of tail there is a panel on each side, covering 72 holes. Edit; as seen in Jimbot's 4th photo on page 29 I presume (wild guess)  this would be where chaff is fired from to prevent a missile strike? If so would the panel be jettisoned when the chaff is deployed ? On the Hasegawa kit it shows to install the covers but before I do I'd better check I'm not wasting an opportunity for extra detail, perhaps a carrier deck diorama servicing scene. I also wonder which way they would hinge?

I haven't noticed these before in my "Google research"

Or perhaps they are just servicing covers for some thingy-ma-jig?

Any ideas out there?

 

 

Sparrowhyperion

Yeh, I'm missing the covers to them on my Recon Bird.  Someone said they were the chaff dispensers.  My Recon Bird is 99% complete, but I can't finish it until the carpet monster decides to have pity on me and cough it up.  It's not a kit for this group build so I am not worrying about it now though.

 

Rich

 

Chaff and flare dispensers are located on the trailing edge of the inboard pylons on non Navy style pylons.  I don't think the Navy style pylons were capable of carrying them.  The ALE-40's were introduced around 1978 or so.  We got the idea from the Israeli Air Force which designed them for their F-4 aircraft around the mid 70's.

I always wondered about those Bernie.  I thought it might be to reduce shockwaves, but I never thought of supersonic air in the engine and the possibility of a stall.  Thanks for the info!

berny13

 

Bockscar:

 

Berny

I always thought those big axe like wedges on the inside and extending out along the fuselage were called 'splitters.' I was told they direct shock waves away from the intakes and fuselage. What did you guys call them, and what are they for?

Thanks

 

 

We just called them "Splitter Plates".  It was used to smooth out air flow and prevent shock waves from building up at Mach speeds.  There was the fixed splitter plate and just behind that was the first segment of the Vari Ramps.  That is the parts you see extending in front of the intakes.  Just inside of the intakes is the second segment vari ramp.  The second segment was perforated which allowed excess air to be vented overboard, exiting out of louvers located in the top and bottom if the intakes. 

At Mach speed the vari ramps would extend, closing off part off the intake to slow down supersonic air.  That prevents excessive back pressure from building up inside the intakes causing compressor stalls.  The ramps would start to extend at Mach .98 and would be fully extended at Mach 1.4.

Just inside the intakes on the outboard side is a "T" shaped probe called the "Pressure Temperature Sensor Probe" (PTSP).  The PTSP would measure pressure and temperature and send the data to the CADC (Central Air Data Computer), which would send a signal to the vari ramp controller, that controlled the vari ramps. 

Located inside the intakes, just forward of the engines was the Bell Mouth Ring.  At high Mach speeds it would slide forward (retract) allowing more air to be vented into the engine compartment.  This high speed air would then be vented overboard through the secondary AB exhaust nozzles generating more thrust.  It would start retracting at Mach 1.4 and be fully retracted at Mach 2+.

Um Berny, Does that mean that my RAF bird being an "M" that I am building a "Measle" LOL

Rich

berny13

 

jimbot58:

 

berny13:

 

jimbot58:

 

I hope you will not mind if I used the Geasel term? I kind of like it.

 

 

 

Go right ahead.  From this day on, any one building the F-4G for the group build will refer to it as Geasel.  

Sparrowhyperion

Um Berny, Does that mean that my RAF bird being an "M" that I am building a "Measle" LOL

Rich

 

berny13:

 

jimbot58:

 

berny13:

 

jimbot58:

 

I hope you will not mind if I used the Geasel term? I kind of like it.

 

 

 

Go right ahead.  From this day on, any one building the F-4G for the group build will refer to it as Geasel.  

 

Why not.  That way I can call the F-4D I am building a Diesel.  

berny13

 

Bockscar:

 

Berny

I always thought those big axe like wedges on the inside and extending out along the fuselage were called 'splitters.' I was told they direct shock waves away from the intakes and fuselage. What did you guys call them, and what are they for?

Thanks

 

 

We just called them "Splitter Plates".  It was used to smooth out air flow and prevent shock waves from building up at Mach speeds.  There was the fixed splitter plate and just behind that was the first segment of the Vari Ramps.  That is the parts you see extending in front of the intakes.  Just inside of the intakes is the second segment vari ramp.  The second segment was perforated which allowed excess air to be vented overboard, exiting out of louvers located in the top and bottom if the intakes. 

At Mach speed the vari ramps would extend, closing off part off the intake to slow down supersonic air.  That prevents excessive back pressure from building up inside the intakes causing compressor stalls.  The ramps would start to extend at Mach .98 and would be fully extended at Mach 1.4.

Just inside the intakes on the outboard side is a "T" shaped probe called the "Pressure Temperature Sensor Probe" (PTSP).  The PTSP would measure pressure and temperature and send the data to the CADC (Central Air Data Computer), which would send a signal to the vari ramp controller, that controlled the vari ramps. 

Located inside the intakes, just forward of the engines was the Bell Mouth Ring.  At high Mach speeds it would slide forward (retract) allowing more air to be vented into the engine compartment.  This high speed air would then be vented overboard through the secondary AB exhaust nozzles generating more thrust.  It would start retracting at Mach 1.4 and be fully retracted at Mach 2+.

Thanks for that Bernie, I didn't know there was a part that moved. I heard that Kelly Johnson devised movable intake cones for the SR-71's engines, and apparently to keep the supersonic shock away from the turbine blades, didn't know you could do that with a plate.

Hey thanks also for decoding the acronyms as well, really helps build a picture.

berny13

 

Sparrowhyperion:

 

Um Berny, Does that mean that my RAF bird being an "M" that I am building a "Measle" LOL

Rich

 

 

berny13:

 

jimbot58:

 

berny13:

 

jimbot58:

 

I hope you will not mind if I used the Geasel term? I kind of like it.

 

 

 

Go right ahead.  From this day on, any one building the F-4G for the group build will refer to it as Geasel.  

 

 

 

 

Why not.  That way I can call the F-4D I am building a Diesel.  

Any suggestions for the F-4F?

How about a "Fleagle"  Like in that old kids show the Banana Splits. lol

Rich

Bockscar

 

berny13:

 

 

Sparrowhyperion:

 

Um Berny, Does that mean that my RAF bird being an "M" that I am building a "Measle" LOL

Rich

 

 

berny13:

 

jimbot58:

 

berny13:

 

jimbot58:

 

I hope you will not mind if I used the Geasel term? I kind of like it.

 

 

 

Go right ahead.  From this day on, any one building the F-4G for the group build will refer to it as Geasel.  

 

 

 

 

Why not.  That way I can call the F-4D I am building a Diesel.  

 

 

Any suggestions for the F-4F?

Cheers berny13, I was looking for an excuse to bust out the putty. I read earlier posts regarding a lost cover for Photo Flash Cartridges but assumed they were further forward on the fuselage.

Thanks also for explaining the VF / VA thing.

I'm afraid the only real knowledge in my nutshell pertains to the inner and outer workings of dairy cattle

-everything else I make up or pretend I know

Thanks Big Smitty, I have done a bit more digging and found that the first F-4 to shoot down a MiG (North Vietnam) ,was shot down itself and lost on the same flight.( This information may not be accurate)

I understand the sensitivity of digging up the past and have total respect for all servicemen that have been lost while serving their country. One of the reasons I enjoy military modeling is it is a way of remembering the sacrifice these men made and the valour with witch they served and trying to preserve a bit of history, even if it's just a talking point so the next generation may understand. Lest we forget

Rich, instead of letting those covers stall you,,,,,why don't you cut out a couple of those doors from 5 thou plastic and pose them open?

I forget if you have a Naval or AF bird,,,,,but, for the Naval the doors are Insignia red inside the doors, with a red "well" around the cartridge frame,,and the actual photoflash frame is a gray, a brass color for the cartridges themselves,,,,I've never checked to see if the rows and columns are right though,,,,,,all I know is they are NOT right to cut them out and put under the doors on a Naval B or J for chaff/flares,,,,,,,,,and I plain don't know what the colors are for an AF bird

Rex

TarnShip

Rich, instead of letting those covers stall you,,,,,why don't you cut out a couple of those doors from 5 thou plastic and pose them open?

I forget if you have a Naval or AF bird,,,,,but, for the Naval the doors are Insignia red inside the doors, with a red "well" around the cartridge frame,,and the actual photoflash frame is a gray, a brass color for the cartridges themselves,,,,I've never checked to see if the rows and columns are right though,,,,,,all I know is they are NOT right to cut them out and put under the doors on a Naval B or J for chaff/flares,,,,,,,,,and I plain don't know what the colors are for an AF bird

Rex

They are the same colors on the Air Force RF-4C and I am pretty sure they are the same color on all export versions.

Here is what they would look like closed.

The panel you see just forward of the star and bar is the RAT.  It was only on the left side and could be found only on the RF-4B/C, F-4B/C/D/N/J.  No other long nose Phantom had the RAT.

can i join please?

iv got a 1/48 scale cant remember who by lol

a 1/32 revell and a 1/32 tamiya f4j :)

Berny -- VF, that's most interesting, I had no idea. All these years I thought the V stood for vehicular, in the sense of aircraft appropriate for carrier use!

Bockscar --Accroding to Leo Janos's book on the Skunk Works, co-written as a biography of the late Ben Rich, who took over from Kelly Johnson in the late '70s, it was Ben Rich who designed the shockwave cones of the Blackbird's engines. GRIN -- not sure what an F-4F would become, but an F-4C could be a Cheesel, and an -E would be an Easel... But only really appropriate if they were all Weasels, which none of them were...

eatthis -- sure you can join! You have a selection there, just let me know which kit (or all of them?) you decide on (company, scale and Phantom variant) so I can make up the build schedule on p1!

Cheers, Mike/TB379

Thunderbolt379

Berny -- VF, that's most interesting, I had no idea. All these years I thought the V stood for vehicular, in the sense of aircraft appropriate for carrier use!

Bockscar --Accroding to Leo Janos's book on the Skunk Works, co-written as a biography of the late Ben Rich, who took over from Kelly Johnson in the late '70s, it was Ben Rich who designed the shockwave cones of the Blackbird's engines. GRIN -- not sure what an F-4F would become, but an F-4C could be a Cheesel, and an -E would be an Easel... But only really appropriate if they were all Weasels, which none of them were...

eatthis -- sure you can join! You have a selection there, just let me know which kit (or all of them?) you decide on (company, scale and Phantom variant) so I can make up the build schedule on p1!

Cheers, Mike/TB379

How's that, for at least 3 decades I thought it was Johnson's idea.

You see how important it is not to play second fiddle, the boss gets all the credit!

Almost like what one frustrated veteran P-47 pilot said "They give all the credit to the Mustang!"

Thanks for the intel Mike, moving forward I'll make sure Ben Rich gets the acknowledgement he earned.

Thunderbolt379

Bockscar --Accroding to Leo Janos's book on the Skunk Works, co-written as a biography of the late Ben Rich, who took over from Kelly Johnson in the late '70s, it was Ben Rich who designed the shockwave cones of the Blackbird's engines.Cheers, Mike/TB379

Kelly Johson designed the cones for the F-104.  That was the first aircraft to use them. They went by several names, "Spikes", "Cones", and "Boundry Layer Air Defuser".  Who ever came up with that last one must have been an engineer.  By the time the YF-12/SR-71 was being designed shock wave cones had been in use for many years and were a proven design.  Kelly may not have designed the SR-71 cones but it was his idea first used on the F-104.

Some more progress on Phamputty. I just about have the nose complete. I had to fabricate an IR sensor from one of the kit's Sidewinder missiles, some scrap plastic, and, of course, putty! It isn't exactly like I think it should be, but it's taken several attempts and it's about as good as I'm going to get. To promote additional pain in this build, I decided that the stabilizers were positioned too low as engineered, so I shoved some plastic in the holes, and am currently in the process of smoothing them out. Then the remount and some additional detailing for that area. I finally got the intake trunks on, and smoothed out w/super glue; lots of super glue.

Glenn

I was wondering about those panels on the back of the fuselage as to what they were. I also know now what those extra parts that are cemented to the back of the pylons. If I keep gaining knowledge, my brain may overload.

I wouldn't mind doing a RF version, I might have to go shopping......

Have started cockpit - this is a new league for me, 20+ pieces just in the pit in 1/72!! Thought I was going to crash and burn on step 1 but with a bit of fancy flying I've found clear sky

I see Son of Medicine Man has a busy looking cockpit, and cheers Berny13 for those pictures of the seats, very useful.

I have already ran into a problem.  I have the Black Box Combat Series F-4D cockpit set.  The item that goes in back of the rear instrument panel does not look correct.  Below is a picture. It is item number 7 and it should look like the drawing.  To the right you see that resin part which doesn't quite match up.  I can scratchbuild the part to match up with the drawing if I have to.  I checked the kit supplied parts and there is no way to use the resin part with kit supplied parts.  For the price you would think they would get it correct. 

Sparrowhyperion

How about a "Fleagle"  Like in that old kids show the Banana Splits. lol

Rich

 

 

Bockscar:

 

 

berny13:

 

 

Sparrowhyperion:

 

Um Berny, Does that mean that my RAF bird being an "M" that I am building a "Measle" LOL

Rich

 

 

berny13:

 

jimbot58:

 

berny13:

 

jimbot58:

 

I hope you will not mind if I used the Geasel term? I kind of like it.

 

 

 

Go right ahead.  From this day on, any one building the F-4G for the group build will refer to it as Geasel.  

 

 

 

 

Why not.  That way I can call the F-4D I am building a Diesel.  

 

 

Any suggestions for the F-4F?

 

 

Hey Rich, good stab at it, we could also consider 'Flugel,' or 'Feindecker.'

berny13

 

Thunderbolt379:

 

Bockscar --Accroding to Leo Janos's book on the Skunk Works, co-written as a biography of the late Ben Rich, who took over from Kelly Johnson in the late '70s, it was Ben Rich who designed the shockwave cones of the Blackbird's engines.Cheers, Mike/TB379

 

 

Kelly Johson designed the cones for the F-104.  That was the first aircraft to use them. They went by several names, "Spikes", "Cones", and "Boundry Layer Air Defuser".  Who ever came up with that last one must have been an engineer.  By the time the YF-12/SR-71 was being designed shock wave cones had been in use for many years and were a proven design.  Kelly may not have designed the SR-71 cones but it was his idea first used on the F-104.

Oh yeah, the F-104, my second favourite jet. The engineers probably called it a 'Boundary Layer Air Defuser' so they could call it a BLADE for short. Only problem was, it was round! Well, until the F-4, anyways.

Thanks for the clarification Berny.

I think I may have found a solution.  It will take the resin part, kit part, and some scratch building and a little "Bubba Engineering" to make the part correct and be able to fit.  The old Crew Chief saying, "The difficult we do immediately, the impossible takes just a litte bit longer".

A back to-back sandwich, with the crusts cut off?

mississippivol

Some more progress on Phamputty. I just about have the nose complete. I had to fabricate an IR sensor from one of the kit's Sidewinder missiles, some scrap plastic, and, of course, putty! It isn't exactly like I think it should be, but it's taken several attempts and it's about as good as I'm going to get. To promote additional pain in this build, I decided that the stabilizers were positioned too low as engineered, so I shoved some plastic in the holes, and am currently in the process of smoothing them out. Then the remount and some additional detailing for that area. I finally got the intake trunks on, and smoothed out w/super glue; lots of super glue.

Glenn

Dr. Glenn, ze schnozzen lookin schonen!