ARMOR - Towed Gun Group Build (ends 7/1/04)

Way to go Scorn. I have that same kit, but it's the Artillery of the Serbian Army.
The URAL is an ex Omega kit, which is supposed to be a little crude, but very nice, same with the gun.

Ural truck brief review
http://www.kitreview.com/reviews/uralcs_1.htm

I had a buildup review, but I can't seem to be able to find it.

BS-100
http://www.missing-lynx.com/reviews/russia/icm35141.htm

Build review of the gun
http://modelingmadness.com/scotts/misc/military/artillery.htm

another:
http://www.track-link.net/reviews/k178

another Ural link
http://www.track-link.net/reviews/k170

have fun. Post some pics when done, I really want to see this kit, as I probably won't get around to building mine in a while.

Lots of great links. The truck sounds like quite a bear to build. I'm looking forward to building my all-resin Mack NO with a combination of excitement and dread. But first things first for The Slow Modeler -- get the 8" done by June 6, 2004.

QUOTE: Originally posted by zokissima Way to go Scorn. I have that same kit, but it's the Artillery of the Serbian Army. The URAL is an ex Omega kit, which is supposed to be a little crude, but very nice, same with the gun. Ural truck brief review http://www.kitreview.com/reviews/uralcs_1.htm I had a buildup review, but I can't seem to be able to find it. BS-100 http://www.missing-lynx.com/reviews/russia/icm35141.htm Build review of the gun http://modelingmadness.com/scotts/misc/military/artillery.htm another: http://www.track-link.net/reviews/k178 another Ural link http://www.track-link.net/reviews/k170 have fun. Post some pics when done, I really want to see this kit, as I probably won't get around to building mine in a while.

Thanks for all the ref links folks! Love gettin' ideas. Had a very hard time gettin' the gun to align in the mount. The no guide holes really made for a tough straightening job on that loooonnngg tube.

Looks like everyone is making progress!
Thanks for hosting the badge Larry.

QUOTE: Originally posted by Larry_Dunn ... snip .... Gotcha. I'm not building the limber, so it won't be an issue for me! The crews didn't use the limber when the Mack NO towed the 8" gun or the Long Tom. .... snip .... Do you like the set overall though?

Actually the limber was optional with truck, but one could use it. The operators TM for the gun states that the gun could be pulled w/o limber but does not give any instructions on how to hook/unhook same (very odd for an Army TM!!). OTOH, all the other pictures with prime mover use a truck & not the M4. And I have WW2 pix of Mack pulling gun via limber.

I really wish I had some good pix of gun w/o limber to see what they used to gather in & hook up the trails.

Yeah, wheel set is OK. I like to point out issues, but at same time, I ought to be able to get around most of 'em or I shouldn't be modeling ....

QUOTE: Originally posted by jratz Actually the limber was optional with truck, but one could use it. The operators TM for the gun states that the gun could be pulled w/o limber but does not give any instructions on how to hook/unhook same (very odd for an Army TM!!). OTOH, all the other pictures with prime mover use a truck & not the M4. And I have WW2 pix of Mack pulling gun via limber.

I'd like to see one. Can you scan and post? -- I've never seen a period pic of a Mack NO pulling a Long Tom or an 8" howitzer using the limber. I've seen museum pics, the best of those being a superb set on the tanxheaven website, but they are "museum poses" to demonstrate how the limber would be used. All the period pics I have show the gun being towed without the limber. They apparently didn't even bring the limbers along. My father was in divisional artillery in WWII and he says the limbers were very unpopular with the 8" and Long Tom crews because they just increased length, which was a bad thing when towing a piece, and increased the length of the transport column as well.

QUOTE: I really wish I had some good pix of gun w/o limber to see what they used to gather in & hook up the trails.

There's a very good pic of just that in the French book (translated into English, don't remember the title, but it's something like US Trucks of World War II) -- it has a Mack NO towing a gun, parked next to a Jeep towing a 37mm, just for comparison's sake.

A guy stationed on an army base here in the States very nicely sent me a photo scan of an 8" being towed without the limber, but it's not got a close-up of the hitch-up details, unfortunately.

I'll try to post the pix next week. I won't be home for the next few days.

QUOTE: Yeah, wheel set is OK. I like to point out issues, but at same time, I ought to be able to get around most of 'em or I shouldn't be modeling ....

I've got a while to get a set, but so far it's not looking good for June 6 ....

More progress on my 8" howitzer last night, I'm happy to report. I got the gun superstructure built, which is step 6, and so the barrel, recoil slide, superstructure and trails are all done. Hussah!

What's left is the suspension and wheels, and from the instructions it looks quite fiddly, but I'm looking forward to it. So far it's been a fun build. It's not a bad kit at all, and man is it ever an impressive looking gun. It completely dwarfs the Panzer 38t on my worktable, but then again so does a Jeep.

More work on it next week -- or maybe Sunday. I'm going to MAssachusetts for my son's birthday party. Hmmm, maybe I'll pay that 8" howitzer a visit too. Hmmm ....

Scorn, that kit does really look like a 'non-easy' build, plus those instructions, in my opinion, pack way too much in one step.

QUOTE: Originally posted by zokissima Scorn, that kit does really look like a 'non-easy' build, plus those instructions, in my opinion, pack way too much in one step.

Half the fun though, isn't it?

LOL zok, I completely agree! But I also agree with Larry. This is a pretty fun kit to build. There are a few parts that are unclear from the instructions on placement. Fortunately, with the links from above I was able to avert disaster and I could see exactly where the shield mounts were supposed to fit.

Counting the clear parts and the tires seperately, this kit comes with 9 sprues! Crazy amount of parts! Like the reviewed links above state, this kit has a huge number of very tiny parts. However, I believe that is part of why I am loving this build!

As I stated earlier, this is my first artillery piece, and if I can find some more like this one, I will definitely build more of them!

Larry:

Ya got me !!! I went back to check my pix & the best one of a Mack NO & Long Tom in fact didn't have a limber !! I thought the limber was just hidden by grass, but on closer inspection (length of the truck + gun), it isn't there. I'll post it later because it is a neat pic anyway. Further quick search yielded nothing, so obviously I wasn't paying close attention. I'm ashamed.

I went back to TM 9-350 (the M2 155) and it says something like "without limber by being semi-trailered" but as I said -- no pix, no other explanation.

I did find the "Catalog of Army Vehicles of WW2", a reprint of a 1944 manual where, under the 7-1/2 ton Truck (pg 112) it states "An Ordnance pintle, Model M-5, is furnished, together with special coupling attachments for the 8" Howitzer, M1, and the 155mm Gun, M1." Guess I need to look for a Mack NO TM.

Does the Mack NO model come with such a "special coupling" ??? If so, a picture of that or the instruction section would staisfy my curiosity. If not, then how will you hook 'em up ?

The only French book (like what you suggested) I've got is one on markings .... no joy.

Larry:

OK, I'm annoyed .... I ordered a TM for the Mack NO today. I was gonna wait till I actually got the kit, but this "special coupling" is buggin' me ....

When I get it, I'll scan up a pix or two of the thingie for your use .... should be week to 10 days ...

Meanwhile this is pic with Mack I thought had limber, but does not (grass hides fact that is missing). Regardless, it is a neat pic & diorama worthy !!!!

http://home.earthlink.net/~jratzweb1/images/Mack_155_Hill.jpg

QUOTE: Originally posted by jratz Larry: OK, I'm annoyed .... I ordered a TM for the Mack NO today. I was gonna wait till I actually got the kit, but this "special coupling" is buggin' me ....

Great!

Your question is a good one, and one I am fretting over right now! I found a bunch of pics of the guns being pulled by the NO, and they all show it without the limber, but none of them are close-ups of the coupling. Shame that the Tanxheaven site offers great close-up photos, but shows it hooked up to the limber. But check these pictures out:

1) The end of the trails of the 8" gun. Notice the pin running horizontally at the end.


2) Now here's the towing eye on the Mack NO. Unfortunately, it is depicted with the limber attached. Wonder if the pin shown above was put through that towing eye? If so, there wouldn't be a lot of play. I'm dubious about it.


Then again, this image from WWII suggests to me that that is exactly what they were doing -- I blew it up twice size to make the coupling clearer.


Alternately, if the towing eye on the truck pivoted so that it could accept a vertical pin, then maybe they just dropped the pin that comes with the AFV Club gun kit (piece B13) into the hole. The plot thickens.

The Azimut instructions for the Mack NO show a simple tow hook that says its for "le Long Tom 155mm." It shows a towing ring with a pin going through it horizontally (for some reason). That doesn't work for the limber, which has a hole for a vertical pin, not a horizontal one.

QUOTE: When I get it, I'll scan up a pix or two of the thingie for your use .... should be week to 10 days ...

Terrific. Really looking forward.

QUOTE: Meanwhile this is pic with Mack I thought had limber, but does not

Cool picture. Never saw that one!

By the way Rick Carlson on the Missing Lynx forum says that the option I considered above is correct -- the horizontal pin on the trails goes through the vertical towing pintle.

Progress Report:

Just finished the figures (nine in all) including the motorcycle. So basically, I have completed the kit OOB. Next step will be the base for the dio.

Looks like I slowly getting there.

QUOTE: Originally posted by Larry_Dunn By the way Rick Carlson on the Missing Lynx forum says that the option I considered above is correct -- the horizontal pin on the trails goes through the vertical towing pintle.

I saw that post & I'm having trouble visualizing it. The standard pintle will rotate, but unless you put some ring-like thing thru it, the towed piece will have no left-right (ie, a turn) motion only up-down in relation to the angle of the pintle.

Pending receipt of the TM, I would think there is another piece (looking like a ring) that mounts to the "clamp" in your pictures & is hooked in the pintle.

Neat discussion -- I'm learning things here.

BTW, my pic came from the US Army Photo History of ETO & MTO -- part of the 90-some volume "Green Book" history of the Army in WW2.

QUOTE: Originally posted by jratz I saw that post & I'm having trouble visualizing it. The standard pintle will rotate, but unless you put some ring-like thing thru it, the towed piece will have no left-right (ie, a turn) motion only up-down in relation to the angle of the pintle. Pending receipt of the TM, I would think there is another piece (looking like a ring) that mounts to the "clamp" in your pictures & is hooked in the pintle.

I guess there would be some play to the extent that the hole in the towing pintle exceeded the size of the clamp in my pictures. I agree though, doesn't seem like a lot of wiggle room. Unfortunately, this is not the most frequently-discussed topic on God's green earth, so a lot of info hasn't been flushed up on it. Too bad the Germans didn't use them!

So I will await your TM, which hopefully addresses this.

In the meantime, I wrote directly yo PSP to see how quickly I could get a set of their WWII wheels. I first checked with RJ but there is apparently some kind of computer glitch that is keeping them from contacting PSP -- I won't get into the dirty details. greatmodels.com doesn't seem to carry their stuff.

Larry:

Hate to break this to you, but .... Remember this discussion started over 4 tiny handles ??

Well, from the looks of your 1st picture, you'll have to build part of the Limber to get the Trail Clamp Bracket (B23,24,45) and maybe the Limber Lift Bracket (B13,14,15). You'll then need the B17,B20 handles on the Clamp.

There are no guide holes, nothing & the handles are a bit oversize. I carefully held them down & gently squeezed with a pair of tweezers to take maybe 1/32" out of the gap so they'd hold to the tabs on B45 while trying to glue.

BTW: You'll think the handles are great compared to B34 & B35 on the bogies !!!! To get them off the sprue without breaking them is a nightmare. And if you can do that, cleanup is even worse. I would love to catch the guy who designed that sprue in a dark alley ....

Scorn:
Haha, ok so you got me to look into the actual box, and man, that gun will probably make me go blind. I can't wait to see you finish it.

On that note, I finished the flak 43 gun and carriage, but still not done. Have to paint the ammo, and weather the thing as a whole.

By the end of the weekend it should be done.

QUOTE: Originally posted by jratz Larry: Hate to break this to you, but .... Remember this discussion started over 4 tiny handles ?? Well, from the looks of your 1st picture, you'll have to build part of the Limber to get the Trail Clamp Bracket (B23,24,45) and maybe the Limber Lift Bracket (B13,14,15). You'll then need the B17,B20 handles on the Clamp.

Yeah, I've been planning on building that piece. i'm not sure it's part of the limber though, is it?. As far as I can tell, it's a separate piece that hooked onto the trails and the limber. (The limber was sometimes called "the dolly," apparently.)

QUOTE: There are no guide holes, nothing & the handles are a bit oversize. I carefully held them down & gently squeezed with a pair of tweezers to take maybe 1/32" out of the gap so they'd hold to the tabs on B45 while trying to glue.

Thanks for the heads up. Not having built it yet, I'm still not completely sure what the problem is, but if the handles are not wide enough to jump a gap (is that the issue here?), maybe I'll just make some out of wire. Hmm.

Say, those WWII wheels, how do they differ from the kit wheels? Are the WWII wheels the ones with the 6 holes in them, the Budd wheels I think they were called? Or is there something else different?

Be advised building that gun zok... if you want to build it ready to fire with trails spread, there are a huge number of things that have to be changed. There are a couple of steps that really should be combined. Mainly mounting brackets that need to line up with tie-down bars. The lack of holes or defined mounting areas really make a mess of lining things up. Had to pull so many brackets off and remount on this kit.

Larry:

The TM lists the clamp with the limber. It isn't part of the issue items with the gun itself, at least not by the TM -- who knows if a supply catalog (ORG G series) had something different -- wouldn't be the first time -- in a past life I almost bought one of those things one book said I should have and another said I shouldn't and of course I didn't when the inspectors came ....

PSP wheels are same as kit -- 5-hole. Tires have 3 treads around. Pix in my TM's suggest anything from 5-spoke to 6-spoke to 7-spoke ?? None of pictures are great so it is hard to tell. I don't think I'm gonna care about it, if I don't get off the gun itself, I'll never get to the HST at this rate .... I mean one has to stop somewhere -- your 2nd picture back there of limber hooked to Mack shows 4 clamps holding each air brake line to limber, but TM shows 3 ... how much sleep am I supposed to loose over these things ???

Thanks. Seems that another French company, Masters Productions, also makes wheels for the gun, these with the six-hole wheels, which I think were called "Budd wheels." These were the wheels on the 2.5 ton truck.. Are they for WWII? I dunno! But I think the whole wheel thing is a bit of a red herring. Apparently the kit wheels are ok for WWII, but "civilian tires" were more widely used.

Are those what you got? What I'm getting? Who knows?!?! Supposedly the Masters guys specialize in WWII truck and vehicle conversions. (Holds breath.)

Here's a pic:



Says it's for the M1, so I've got my fingers crossed.

That long tom is one bad looking mutha :)

QUOTE: Originally posted by muzzleflash88 That long tom is one bad looking mutha :)

Dude, it's a beast. You gotta build one. It's one menacing gun. I think the 8" is particularly scary looking. The width of the muzzle still bugs me out. It looks like the main gun on a cruiser.

QUOTE: Originally posted by Larry_Dunn Are those what you got? What I'm getting? Who knows?!?! Supposedly the Masters guys specialize in WWII truck and vehicle conversions. (Holds breath.)

Update. I don't know if I should post this or not, but John I'm going to assume you are like me, and would want to know.

Apparently the PSP wheels have five holes, the same as the kit, which seems to have not been used in WWII. The tires in the PSP are the correct "civilian" type so commonly used on non-powered wheeled hardware in WWII, apparently for better traction.

The Masters Production wheels have the six holes, and civilian tires. On top of that, apparently there are a few other correction pieces in the kit.

Larry:

Thanks, I picked up your thread on MLX & left a question as to when the 5-spoke came into play -- if Korea, then I can be OK ....

BTW, I think 2-1/2 wheels are smaller diameter -- I laid my Tamiya 2-1/2 wheels which are 6-spoke against the 155(&PSP) and the Tamiya's are smaller dia. (So I can't just use them).

I have otherwise 4 options:
-1 ignore the problem (meaning build post-WW2)
-2 fill the holes in the PSP wheels & recut to 6-spoke (ugh!!).
-3 take the nice 6-spoke resin wheels/tires off my very big $$$$ Roy Models Diamond T wrecker kit -- like hell I will .....
-4 look for the Masters Production set ....

BTW, I just studied the Masters pic you showed. The "Dolly M1" is really the "Limber M2". Your kit & mine both have the "Limber M5". I am not sure about the "Dolly" term, I think that may be a translation issue, but I think the "M1" refers to the gun model rather than the limber model, because I know the early 155 Gun M1 had the M2 Limber, while the later 155 gun M2 could use either the M2 or M5 Limber. For several reasons, I am tweaking the 155 semi-M1 in the kit to the 155 M2, which is still WW2 (& beyond).

Larry: An update -- I found the Masters sets at www.blast-models.com a French site and ordered 2 sets. One set was 15Euro & they have a 20Euro minimum. We shall see what we shall see ....

Larry: 2nd update -- AA#13 at VLS, I ordered one.

PROGRESS PICS:
I finally made time to snap a few shots, things have been super crazy for me lately

I am so happy with the ICM models. The horse and limber are as amazing as the gun. I am happy with my progress but am always looking for suggestions (that's why we are here, right?

Nothing is painted yet, just plain'ol progress pictures:


ICM 45mm AT gun, ICM horse/limber/figure, Zveda zis-3




I may get flashy with these Russian guns I may have to do some bright Russian Red, or some White/Blue lines on the guns to give them some character. I would love input on that!

muzzleflash, that looks absolutely great! I have a few ICM kits, but I've not built one yet, but if this is the level of detail they feature, I probably should get around to it. Can't wait to see yours painted up

Larry, forgive my ignorance, but are you building the AFV kit or the resin (forgot manufacturer)?

Looks good, Muzzleflash. Hope to see it finished soon.