Blitzkrieg in the West (France 1940) Sept. 18 2011 - March 1 2012

Tim, campaign was short indeed at about 6 weeks. Most photos support a dusty appearance from road marches and rapid advances so wear and tear would be kept to a minimum from that perspective. This was a blitzkrieg after all!

As to the question of re-painting between the Polish and French campaigns, that seems to have happened only in regards to changed vehicle markings (the large white crosses proved to be excellent aiming points for AT gunners) or for vehicles still in the pre-1938 3-tone schemes that hadn't gotten the new scheme prior to Sept '39. More new vehicles were also produced and assigned to the various units in that time frame so you had a lot of brand-new gear (Pz IIIs, IVs, 38(t)s in particular) also entering service.  Any vehicles receiving a re-fit or up-armoring would have automatically been repainted prior to being accepted at the depots for consignment to the combat units as a matter of course.

tigerman

What's the official swatch for the brown and what acrylics can you find it in?

Eric, here's the "official" swatches as reproduced in Panzer Tracts 1-1. The dark brown is very dark, not sure what would be a good match in acrylics, I believe Testors recreates the Schokoladenbraun in their Panzer '43 set in acrylics, you might start there.

Agree with all of the confusion there is on the camo.  Depending on which reference used (most being all Pz gray) one could go either way.  I tend to believe they were done in the brown on gray as WBILL has stated.  Two of Dragons new kits show this camo on their art work.

CARL - From my reading and few pics I have, believe Rommel's GHOST DIVISION's markings were large red numbers with narrow whit outline and the crosses were the skinny ones.  As Bish had said the solid white or yellow cross was seen in the Polish campaign not France.  You can see this marking on the pic above on the bottom tank.  This is the Ghost Division

Not sure if the same markings were applied on the PZ I's but would imagine they would be for all of Rommel's tanks.

I am with you on the two color (grey / brown) scheme.....   I'll be looking into that as well.

Thanks!

The Polish campaign was over in early October 1939, so your looking at about 6 months to refit and move their army to the west. The Panzer II were fitted with add-on armor in this time frame.

Sounds reasonable . Not sure about how many vehicles where repainted .

Great reference photo, Bill. It joined my growing research on this Panzer II.

I would think that since the Battle of France only lasted 6 weeks, their would not be a lot of weathering, like chiping and rusting. Most of the vehicles would have been refitted after the Polish campaign, so their paint jobs would be newer. 

There probably was a lot of mud, since the battle was held in May-June and in the soggy area Northern France and Belgium.

What do you guys think?

I'm all for doing something new ! Sometimes i get carried away with my camo and go more for the beauty of it and not the accuracy .  WBill knows what i'm talking about .

Ye, in plan on painting my German kits from this period in the two colours, despite what the instructions say. Maybe if enough kits get painted this way, we can start a new trend.

Bish , yes , painting it overall Pz. gray would work but know that i know there was a Pz. gray and brown camo scheme that is the way i will go .

To be honest i still find it all very confuseing. This period and the late war period, say the last 6 months of the war, can be a real headache. But, if anyone just wanted to say to hell with it and paint their kits Pz Grey, i don't think anyone would get to upset. But at least you have the info to make up your own mind.

Bish

 

Shellback:

BaBill212:

Not exactly sure Carl,,, I'll dig around and see if I come up with something for you.........

Thanks Bill . The instructions show a cross on top of the turret . I'm guessing the cross is white with a white 13 on the turret side .

 

The cross on the turret, especially in white, sound more like its from the Polish campaign.

This issue about paint scheme has been a very confuseing one. Most of the referance material that is around has stated that Pz Grey was used not only for the french Campaign, but also for Poland. One of the main referances for German armour has been the squadron Pz colours series. This stats that the order to switch to Pz Grey was given in late 1939, and the July 1940 order simply standadized this. Add this to the fact that in b&w photos it is very hard to that two colours have been used, have added to the idea of Pz Grey for Fance.

I do believe that in another discussion on this that it was mention that the original order for Pz Grey was issued in early 1940, and that some newly built vehicles used in France may have been painted this way. I think one of the early Pz Tracts books was mentioned as a source, but can't recall which one.

Its seem to be that the further we get from WW2, the more we seem to understand the thruth about many things.

As bill mentioned, most kits, old and new, show vehicle in Pz Grey. This includes the newish Tamiya Pz II's, both the Polish and French campaign kits. But Dragon has at least one kit in the two colour scheme. If you can find a pic of the box art, this may help in working out how to apply it.

 

 

Is this getting interesting ? Yes !!! Its great all of the info that i've learned so far ! Thanks Bish .

What's the official swatch for the brown and what acrylics can you find it in?

I like that as well.........   thanks for the info / pics wBill  

wbill76

To add to my above post...here's what the MM Testors colors produce (with some additional fading/lightening done to the panzer gray portions) in my take on the scheme using Tamiya's Pz II A/B/C kit.

That's a really nice camo. I'm consitering using it.

Shellback

BaBill212:

Not exactly sure Carl,,, I'll dig around and see if I come up with something for you.........

Thanks Bill . The instructions show a cross on top of the turret . I'm guessing the cross is white with a white 13 on the turret side .

The cross on the turret, especially in white, sound more like its from the Polish campaign.

This issue about paint scheme has been a very confuseing one. Most of the referance material that is around has stated that Pz Grey was used not only for the french Campaign, but also for Poland. One of the main referances for German armour has been the squadron Pz colours series. This stats that the order to switch to Pz Grey was given in late 1939, and the July 1940 order simply standadized this. Add this to the fact that in b&w photos it is very hard to that two colours have been used, have added to the idea of Pz Grey for Fance.

I do believe that in another discussion on this that it was mention that the original order for Pz Grey was issued in early 1940, and that some newly built vehicles used in France may have been painted this way. I think one of the early Pz Tracts books was mentioned as a source, but can't recall which one.

Its seem to be that the further we get from WW2, the more we seem to understand the thruth about many things.

As bill mentioned, most kits, old and new, show vehicle in Pz Grey. This includes the newish Tamiya Pz II's, both the Polish and French campaign kits. But Dragon has at least one kit in the two colour scheme. If you can find a pic of the box art, this may help in working out how to apply it.

My pleasure Carl, that's half the fun of GBs (so I'm told), the research!

WBill , again , thanks heaps for sharing all of the above info with me . Those pics are a great help . they gave me some ideas about equipment storage also .

Your research info is a real asset to this G.B. !

Ich bin in mit einem 1/35 Bastelsatz von Tamiya Panzer II Ausf A/B/C...

To add to my above post...here's what the MM Testors colors produce (with some additional fading/lightening done to the panzer gray portions) in my take on the scheme using Tamiya's Pz II A/B/C kit.

Carl,

This might help, while color-plates they are still handy to show how the pattern would look. Unlike most other German patterns, this one extended to the lower hull and road wheels.

Tim, not sure about Tamiya colors...I use Testors enamels and found that their Schokoladenbraun was a good match for the dark brown. No idea what that would correlate to in the Tamiya line but might give you a start.

tigerman

The Ghost Division, nice Carl.

This thread has taught me a lot already. Two-toned  camo. That's another.

Same here Eric  .

"Gespensterdivision"

The Ghost Division, nice Carl.

This thread has taught me a lot already. Two-toned  camo. That's another.

wbill76

John/Shellback,

All panzers for France 1940 should have the 2-tone scheme to be accurate. It used to be thought that straight panzer gray was the norm when some of the older (and not so older) kits were released and the markings sheets reflect that understanding. This is due to the fact that it's very hard to pick out the 2-tone scheme in b/w photos especially if the vehicle in question has any kind of dust coat or even if the lighting isn't just right. The ordered scheme from Nov '38 to July '40 was 2/3 panzer gray, 1/3 dark brown and is the standard for both the Polish and French campaigns. Prior to Nov '38 the ordered scheme was a three-tone hard-edged scheme and vehicles painted in that scheme were to be repainted by units in the field to convert to the two-tone as time permitted. The monotone panzer gray scheme didn't get ordered until July '40 and remained in effect until Feb '43 when it was replaced by dunkelgelb and the familiar three-tone field applied combo of DY/RB/OG.  

WBill , thanks a heap for all of that info . Like you said the kit is older and shows a monotone gray . i'll look and see what i can find as far as what pattern the dark brown was applied .

wbill76

John/Shellback,

All panzers for France 1940 should have the 2-tone scheme to be accurate. It used to be thought that straight panzer gray was the norm when some of the older (and not so older) kits were released and the markings sheets reflect that understanding. This is due to the fact that it's very hard to pick out the 2-tone scheme in b/w photos especially if the vehicle in question has any kind of dust coat or even if the lighting isn't just right. The ordered scheme from Nov '38 to July '40 was 2/3 panzer gray, 1/3 dark brown and is the standard for both the Polish and French campaigns. Prior to Nov '38 the ordered scheme was a three-tone hard-edged scheme and vehicles painted in that scheme were to be repainted by units in the field to convert to the two-tone as time permitted. The monotone panzer gray scheme didn't get ordered until July '40 and remained in effect until Feb '43 when it was replaced by dunkelgelb and the familiar three-tone field applied combo of DY/RB/OG.  

I dont know why this posted .....................

BaBill212

Not exactly sure Carl,,,  I'll dig around and see if I come up with something for you.........

Thanks Bill . The instructions show a cross on top of the turret . I'm guessing the cross is white with a white 13 on the turret side .

wBill,,,,   thanks             you helped me too...   plus I didn't have to dig !           appreciate the help

Tim,,       I don't have a readily available answer, other than I do like Tamiya's XF-63 German Grey....  although I have heard it may be a little on the dark side....    I'm sure some other info will pop up shortly.

What Tamiya paints would match these 2 colors? Or what other brands are a good match?

John/Shellback,

All panzers for France 1940 should have the 2-tone scheme to be accurate. It used to be thought that straight panzer gray was the norm when some of the older (and not so older) kits were released and the markings sheets reflect that understanding. This is due to the fact that it's very hard to pick out the 2-tone scheme in b/w photos especially if the vehicle in question has any kind of dust coat or even if the lighting isn't just right. The ordered scheme from Nov '38 to July '40 was 2/3 panzer gray, 1/3 dark brown and is the standard for both the Polish and French campaigns. Prior to Nov '38 the ordered scheme was a three-tone hard-edged scheme and vehicles painted in that scheme were to be repainted by units in the field to convert to the two-tone as time permitted. The monotone panzer gray scheme didn't get ordered until July '40 and remained in effect until Feb '43 when it was replaced by dunkelgelb and the familiar three-tone field applied combo of DY/RB/OG.  

Not exactly sure Carl,,,  I'll dig around and see if I come up with something for you.........