jibber

Bish, guys, in doing research into different German units, I'm trying to match vehicles and paint to particular units (a hunt I'm sure we all share). Heres what I find:

-Almost all are in black and white

-Sometimes you can pick up subtle variations in the grays

-Bish I really liked the color enhanced photo of the King headed to Normandy. I was able to get close to the camo theme and number.

Thats what I'm looking for all types of vehicles

Questions;

1. Is there a good source for color enhanced pics

2. A written account for units and the particular paint themes and numbers.

3. Most camo on the builds tend to match the box art, but in fact there are many variations.

4. Any where to find them.

5. I have books but most are incomplete.

6. I've saved many web sites mostly from some very smart people here, but I'm looking for more.

Thanks, Terry

Its a really awkward area. Firstly, I don't believe there was any standard form of pattern for the 3 colour camo. I believe it was up to individual units and some times even vehicles. Also, there the issue of paint supply. As Jack pointed out, vehicles should really be painted to match the environment. But what happens if your some where in the east and your supply is having problems and you haven't got any green paiste. And then what happens if you paint it to match one environment and you move to another.

As far as I know, there's no record of what units wore what colour, it would be far to complicated. What scheme a unit painted the tank at the start of a year could be completely different at the end of the year.

As for colour enhanced pics, I don't know of any source for them. I just stumbled across that Tiger pic at the right time. Best advice I can give is do a Google search from images of what type of vehicle you want and see what comes up.

There were many variations in scheme. It would depend on location, supply of paste, how you mixed the paste, what you applied it with and so on. All we can do really is get a general idea.

The Mobelwagen I have down for this GB I am assigning to the 506th s. Pz Abt. I know the unit had them, but I have no images, as they are hard to come across. So what I will do is try to find an image of one of the units Tiger's from the same time and paint the Mobelwagen on a scheme based on that.

Do you have the Squadron Pz Colours range of books. I would suggest those for a start if you don't.

unless i am doing a specific vehicle or scene AND have photos to justify it, i think there are lfew specifics to worry about. obcvously the amush dot pattern was late in the war but 2 color vs 3 color, sharp edge vs feathered edge, brought vs narrow is subjective. MMA german colors are diffent than PolyS colors than tamiya acrylics. throw in scale, lighting, weathering and it's a crap shoot. i do look at what fromnt and season i am modeling and than do what i would do if i were the vehicle commander.

probably will be adding some towed FLAK as the GB progresses and maybe an HT from a few years ago.

Thanks to both of you. I had the same thoughts but I guess things were really on the fly and what we have are some B&W photos for records. I have checked reference books and found (6) different patterns for the Ostwind. I guess  I'll pick one, but what really surprises me is theres no vehicle number on them?  

Thanks as always. I'm waiting for some PE to get started.

This should really be on the DHGB.

This should really be on the DHGB.

yep that's where the WIP pics will be

Yes, the trio of Bruce Culver books (Panzer Colors I,II, and III) is a great foundation for German armour.  To my knowledge, the only official written documentation was that of  the implementation of new paints introduced during the course of the war.  

I haven't looked into all unit histories, but of the three I recently mentioned, 12 SS Hj were newly formed, while Lehr and the 21st Panzer were both in France for rest and refit.  Any surviving vehicles of the latter two, were left at the battle front as spares, replacements,  etc.   They were issued new equipment, and essentially had a fresh canvas to apply their camou schemes.

Regarding Flakpanzers, haven't seen anything as to why they don't have vehicle numbers.  When you think about it though, they were issued in small amounts generally, like maybe 3 or 4 units (while on paper it should have been more) - enough to make a single (zug)platoon, and assigned to Panzer regiment HQ (or heavy tank battalion HQ).  Their tactical doctrine too might be such that numbers were not required.  

regards,

Jack

Well, the Japanese built about fifty zillion Zeros and people are still arguing about what colour they were so I wouldn't get too hung up when painting a panzer!

I mean within reason - if you paint it pink with purple polka dots it's probably wrong... (probably)

mean within reason - if you paint it pink with purple polka dots it's probably wrong... (probably)

unless you do a B-24 formation airplane or your daughter wants a pink panther.

Jack: 21.PD wasn't in France for a refit, it was being reconstituted after the origninal division surrendered in Nord Afrika in 5/43.  On June 17, 1943 Schnelle Brigade West was upgraded to Schnelle Division West, and on June 27, 1943 was assigned the name 21st Panzer Division in memory of the unit that had fought and been captured in North Africa. Major Becker was assigned the command of the division's assault gun battalion, Panzerjäger-Abteilung 200.

As for the Panzer Colors books, there is some blatantly false info in those books. (There's a reason why Bill Murphy (RIP) wasn't involved in the last 2 of the series.)  See http://stugiii.com/gamesmodelsmisc/panzercolorserrata.html for corrections.

waynec

mean within reason - if you paint it pink with purple polka dots it's probably wrong... (probably)

unless you do a B-24 formation airplane or your daughter wants a pink panther.

LOL, that's why I said 'probably' - I figured someone could find an exception or two! 

Greg - thanks for correcting the history of the 21st.  This is even better proof  that this unit definitely would have all new vehicles with original schemes pertaining to the area.

What a gold mine of info on that link you provided - I've promptly attached the printed corrections to the suspect volumes.

regards,

Jack

Greg, thanks very much for that link. I will defiantly be going through that. I have always been cautious about the Pz Colours books. But I think they are a good starting point as long as you don't take their word for it.

But I think the same can be said for a lot of the Squadron books. I always treat them with an air of caution.

Greg, I haven't stopped reading, thanks.

Bish

Greg, thanks very much for that link. I will defiantly be going through that. I have always been cautious about the Pz Colours books. But I think they are a good starting point as long as you don't take their word for it.

But I think the same can be said for a lot of the Squadron books. I always treat them with an air of caution.

Yes. The photos are great reference, but I prefer to do my own interpretation of them based upon more research available out there.

Well after thinking about it, I'm going to do the tank like the box art shows, it's still just red on it but the camo is different than in the instructions. should still turn out good though.

another question, I know model kits make everything you need including the spare wheels that are carried, how realistic would be to leave some things off?

If you leave stuff like tools off you probably want to leave the clamps that held the tool on though. Generally it seems more work to build the clamps than just to leave the tool on though.  

I was going to leave the extra wheels out of the box thing they are carried in.

www.rlm.at/.../hydro_06.790x525.jpg

On the kit, it has a bar going across the top of them to keep them in place, doesn't in that picture. Can't  figure out a way to put the bar on but leave the wheels off for painting then somehow get the wheels in again.

You can barely make out the bar in this picture.

www.tamiya.com/.../top.jpg

i have read, maybe on FSM that a lot of SHERMAN crews carried the tools inside so the grunts wouldn't steal them,especially the shovels. my thought on this, camo, and extra storage is "if this wes my vehicle how would i paint it and what would i carry?" this is coming from a former tanker who was used to having a 50 ton rucksack.

WW2P: Yeah you could just leave the spare wheels out if you want there. Even toss a couple of wine bottles or a helmet in the empty bin. The bracket you could just put in the bottom of the bin like the crew has just tossed it there, or I guess it's possible it got lost so you could leave it off.

Wayne: I've heard the same thing about infantry 'borrowing' tools. Again building brackets from scratch or fooling around with teeny PE ones are such a pain I just go ahead and stick the tools on there.

hey gamera

i'm with you about building brackets. i also tend to keep the tools wood and metal instead of painted just for some contrast, especially with a single color vehicle.

Thanks guys! Everything is together except the tracks, ready for paint. I'm thinking of putting some branches and stuff on the tank like I've seen in pictures. Does anyone know how they were kept on?

One common way was to jam branches in anywhere that they fit and would not interfere with hatches, optics, weapons, etc. another method is to string commo wire from various points along the vehicle and jam the foliage into/under that wire.

Some ideas for branches on the Panzer IV, it's a youtube video I've been looking at, but from the Canadian Firefly perspective that I'm building.  It's when they met elements of the 12SS, both were on an offensive mission - but there is some great shots of the Panzers starting at about the 6.00 mark:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZYr1M5CLXw

Clearer film can be seen at the British Pathe site, but no sound.  Added bonus, there are some captured stills as as well:

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/d-day-from-german-perspective/query/german+perspective+dday

regards,

Jack

I'm going to have the braces that the skirt armor was hung on, but no armor. I could just set them on there, I'm sure that was a possibility.

Yes it was not uncommon to see Mk IV's with just the hull armor mounts and the plates gone.

I remember seeing a photo somewhere with a Panzer IV driving out the front all shiny and new with the skirts and everything perfect and then a second photo showing her after a week or so in action with most of the skirts gone the brackets bent all up and the fenders all smashed to blazes.

I thin k that was in a book "How to Build Tanks (Or Armor Models- or along those lines)". It was a Mk. IV from 12SS Panzer Beofre the Normandy Campaign, and after its' capture during the campaign.

Thanks SP, now that you mention it I believe that's it exactly. One of Shep Paine's I believe. 

Having decided to paint the Invasion stripes on my P-47 'Bolt, there's something about using flat white that makes me think. They seem to look too white to me. So a trip to a local Hobby Lobby store was made. Knowing they carried Vallejo paint, one particular shade of white intrigued me - Vallejo Off White. I took a tiny dab on my fingernail to get a good idea of what the shade of white looks like.

I'm tempted to buy it as it looks more appropriate as a slightly weathered white for the D-Day Invasion stripes on the fuselage and wings. Thoughts?

Also - can I use Testors Universal Acrylic Thinner as a thinning agent for airbrush use? I'd  hate to waste my money on Vallejo thinner if I can get away with using what I have on hand.