Pride of the Luftwaffe GB

Tony, that is one nice looking aircraft, even with the French markings. Great job on the paint job.

Tony... Nice looking 109!

Tony, very smart looking scheme - beautifully executed.

Hope I'm wrong, but something looks odd about the prop, is it on backwards?

regards,

Jack

WA,

Wonderful work on both of those 109's. I really like the float plane. On the 109G did you mask off the nose cone, or free hand it?

Tony, I second Bishs comments on the 109 in French markings, it looks great, well done mate.

Thanks Everyone.

Jack - you're right about the prop. For once it was easily fixable without damaging the model.

Interesting to note that the  fitting of the prop has a pin protruding from the cowling to mount the prop on, then the spinner fits over it. the prop blades are mounted on a ring that fits over the pin, but the ring is closed on one side which means it can only be mounted one way, which actually is back to front. I had noted it's odd appearance and then got distracted and forgot it, but Jack's comment brought it back into focus. I should have fixed it earlier, but its a very interesting 'blooper' from Academy. In the end I just trimmed and sanded it all, then flush mounted it with CA.

That, incidentally is my 3rd 1/72 109, as I like to build 'projects' of a minimum of five aircraft, there's a couple more to go, including the Japanese 109E I'm now working on,

It was also the fifth German type in French markings, so that 'project' has reached maturity at least. There might be a few more to come...

Cheers

Tony

Morning all! Well, we kinda had a snow thing this weekend, and was not able to get out much, (other then my wife wanting to build a snow man) so other then that I was able to get some work done. Took yesterday off to do a weekend build, while this project was setting up. Well, actually jumped back and forth between the two... But heres the progress...

Well, kinda like I had hoped for, seems were smooth, and just a slight smoothing with acetone and a Q-tip on the putty and no sanding was required.

OK, I was going to do the undersides and fuse sides in 76, but I started reading into it further, and found that most of the late war birds were sent out with primered undersides and sides and many (not all) were applied in field. So... Primered undersides.

Lately I have been using artist oils to weather with, so I'm applying the decals now so they receive weathering too. The setting solution takes tome to work, so... Were at a stopping point... Tis all for now,Thanks 

Doug

Tony - the 109 came out awesome! Very nice paint work. Thanks for a great addition to the GB!

Doug - I hadn't heard that about the primered underside before. It's coming along nicely!

Nice work Doug. I knew some aircraft had NMF unde4rsides, at least partly, not heard of the primer before. Nice info and it will make it different.

OK, I just wanted to make sure that I had read it right, But in Late war luftwaffe camo colors part three, By David Brown, (I hope I understood this right), but it stated that in the late stages of the war, due to the strain on the economy, the lack of raw materials to mfg, and to reduce the amount of coats of paint to cover due to the poor quality, primers were often used as camo to replace the RLM recommended colors. Or parts were shipped NMF. 

I know this is the place for info, so any additional input would be welcome! Thanks guys!

Doug

Doug, is that primer question from here?

http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/luftcamdb_3.htm

tbh, not my expertise, but possibly-- what shade of primer did they use?  I've read elsewhere too that at one point the Luftwaffe paints were so designed that they did not require primer and adhered directly to metal surface.  Only fabric control surfaces required primer, and this was red.

Another thread here states by summer of '44, much of the underwing surface was left bare metal.  Firstly, it wasn't important to hide the aircraft's undersides - except maybe the the landing doors would recieve some paint/mottle spray.  Secondly, it saved time and materials not to paint.

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=3916

regards,

Jack

Jack, I was hoping you would comment, I for one consider you one of the go to members for info... Yes that is the one I was reading. now, go to the section titled... August 15 1944, sammecllitteilung Nr2, go down about 10 paragraphs and read the 11th, which starts with... There are two possabilities... several sentances down, it states several different reasons for the differences in RLM colors and one sentance states using primers inplace of paint , then gives a few reasons why. That was the reason I chose the primer, unless I misunderstood. Any way, thanks for the input. Read that area and see what you think. Thanks

Doug

I have not paid much attention to late war German aircraft camo, somthing i very much need to rectify. I am going to have to read through that and see what else i can find.

Thanks guys.

Doug, i have just read that section. I think you have understod it correct, but of course he is giving it as one of a number of possable reasons for different shades appearing. Of course it is possable that all could be correct. One factory runs ourt of paint, so uses primer. Another puts on less coats of paint. The next leaves out the primer, and so on.

I think all could be right and all could be wrong.

Saved that page, going to have a full read through that.

Doug, I think you understood the section you pointed out.  Like Bish stated, the author is interpreting some colours as to why they are light, so it's possible only primer in some or even all areas?

Thing is, I don't know of any Luftwaffe grey primers  other than the RLM 02, which early on also doubled as the lighter portion of the splinter scheme.

Is your aircraft project based on a historical photo?

regards,

Jack

Hey Bish... Yeah thats the way I took it too... I had read in another book ( I have here, Just can't remember which one) almost the same thing, that near the end they were using whatever they could just to get them in the air, and that primer was often used as camo paint. Not meaning to start a firestorm (lol) but thats what I like about this forum... We will figure it out and its all good info! LOL...

Take care...

Doug

Jack... I agree and saw that somewhere too, the only reason I had figured grey was due to the parts they were calling "blue grey or blue / white (76 I'm sure,) also I guess the Grey violet might fall in there somewhere, and often seeing late ware birds being described as having a faded 76 or grey accents. Oh well, I appreciate the response, and as always, lots of good info shared and figured out here. 

Doug

For sure, given the war situation and the lack of of concise documention, there are options as to what it might have been.  All that is definitely known is what the colours should have been had the proper supplies been available.

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One thing I can't find are images of the 190 for III. gruppe of JG 3.  Maybe only the 4th gruppe had them?

http://www.ww2.dk/air/jagd/jg3.htm

Is this then a what if build, because the Reich defense markings you mentioned earlier (white and red) also don't match this chart:

regards,

Jack

I believe the one I looked at was II Jg3. In asbiz I had a little problem finding it, being almost an exclusive 109 usage from the Spanish civil war to the "K" version, but towards the end, there they were, a group of 190 A 8s used as defense against the bombers and another group used as night fighters. As to the Reich defense band it is a broad white band and it looked like a very thin red stripe at either end, that may have been a litho issue and it just looked (to me) like stripes.Probably just solid white.

Jack, In perticular, this is the aircraft that caught my eye...

Thanks again

Doug

wow moving along .

Doug, I think you are good to go.  As I said, not familiar with late war Luftwaffe, but yes as soon as I saw those colour plates you posted, it is indeed a IV. Gruppe aircraft,  indicated by the wavy bar symbol. 

The individual aircraft number eight in black puts it as the 2nd staffel of the group, and 11.(sturm)/JG 3 designation tells me this was at the time when each gruppe had only 3 squadrons apiece.  That dates it at some time before August 10 1944, at which point the Sturm gruppe was expaned to 4 staffel (13,14,15,16).

regards,

Jack

Thanks Jack... I for one always appreciate your knowledge and input specially when trying to ID a subject. 

Doug

OK... Now that  Jack and others have helped me figure out a few questions I had... A bit more progress...

Time to start the weathering of the underside. Like I said earlier, I've been using artist oils lately, and while they take longer I feel they do a more convincing job. This is a mix of black and bark brown to do panel lines. 

The exhaust, oil, fuel, and gun powder residue look a tad heavy right now, but will smooth out in future steps.

While all that sets up for a day or so... I'll move on to something else.

and the start of the upper surfaces, Grau/violet and grau/grun. Thats about it for now. Thanks all!

Doug

Interesting exchage here about the late war colors or lack of. Who knows how they ended up near the end. Take the Me 262 done in NMF with putty lines and some sections painted. New info keeps surfacing all the time.

Late war production quality control was not the same as in the early years. This along with the need to rush the aircraft into combat saw NMF undersides or parts of along with unpainted gear wells out in the field. I have the decals and info for a 1/32 FW190 F8 that had 75/76 uppers and NMF sides and undersides. It more than likely had unpainted wells too. This will be one heck of an unusual scheme for a butcher bird.

PJ, good points you haved added to the discussion.

The problem I had grasping Doug's specific build was I took it too literal the late war time frame and was looking at JG 3's roster as four squadrons in each of the four groups.  That would of put the 11th staffel in III gruppe, and that just did not jive.

The pilot of 'black 8' is Willi Maximowitz, and the b/w photo of his mount is captioned as being taken some time in June 1944 at Dreux Airfield.   From the image I couldn't really say if it sports standard paint, or something else... 

regards,

Jack

Evening all! I was able to get some more done today. 

The pattern is complete on the wings, and the mottle is done.

I generally try to make the mottle just a bit darker then I want at first. It will fade somewhat in future steps.

Getting the trim and accents painted on. The tape didn't co-operate down near the wing root and I missed a little bit, no big deal, I'll touch up in a bit.

same on this side.

OK, the red isn't paint, its a dry transfer rub on. 

And the Reich defence band for Jg3. Thats about all till morning... Thanks and have a good evening!

Doug

Thanks Tony!, I agree...I like seeing others coming along, how they're doing it.