ARMOR - Tamiya 1/16 Tiger 1 Group Build

Willy vs Wecohe news:

I've just talked to Willy, and it seems Wecohe wants to buy Willy's reduction units.

He also has new 'long-can big-block' motors for the DMD's. They run about the same as the black ones he had, but with a bit more torque, power & efficiency than the blacks. If you're battling, that means when you get to those last hits, you're still moving... The blacks ran $25 a pair, these are $45, but may drop to $35 if interest in them goes up.

He's now also making mods to gearboxes so ~all~ the shafts run on bearings. No price as yet, but you want the best, it'll cost, as usual.

http://www.customrcmodels.com/Tanks/id84.htm (Danville August demo'd)

QUOTE: Originally posted by WhiteWolf McBride PE Folders: Well, I got the 4" unit, and it was a mistake. Its not quite big enough for the bigger pieces (especially the grilles) The Etch-mate isn't much bigger, and has alignment pins that block inserting the bigger pieces enough for a good fold. The grilles are the worst, if you grip the edge and try to fold the majority up, you bend the grille-mesh, and you cant put the majority of the grille under the fold head because of the pins. I almost put my thumb thru mine, and the 'ripples' I know have are probably rather scale... Now if you don't like the 8" H&F price, I'll sell ya my 4" H&F, with untouched fold blades (the ones I dinna use) for less than their list price. I was tempted to move up, and if i can liquidate this 4" unit, I'll move up.

I think I might just get the 8" H&F as I've already spent far too much on this Tiger.

Thans for the offer though.

PE Folders:

Well, I got the 4" unit, and it was a mistake. Its not quite big enough for the bigger pieces (especially the grilles) The Etch-mate isn't much bigger, and has alignment pins that block inserting the bigger pieces enough for a good fold. The grilles are the worst, if you grip the edge and try to fold the majority up, you bend the grille-mesh, and you cant put the majority of the grille under the fold head because of the pins. I almost put my thumb thru mine, and the 'ripples' I know have are probably rather scale...

Now if you don't like the 8" H&F price, I'll sell ya my 4" H&F, with untouched fold blades (the ones I dinna use) for less than their list price. I was tempted to move up, and if i can liquidate this 4" unit, I'll move up.

Does anybody have an opinion regarding the use of an "Etch mate" or an "8 Inch Hold & Fold" as sold at http://www.ww2modelmaker.com/holdfold.htm for making life with the Aber Full Kit easier?

As far as Willy's reductions:

Yes, they work on ALL marks of DMD gearboxes, all you need to do is specify what tank you have, and what gearboxes, and he can supply you with the correct units to help you achieve scale speed. I've had one of his similar units for the 1/14 Tamiya semi's, and it was very well made.

As for reliability, I've ~never~ heard of one of Willy's reduction units failing. Then again, as its at the motor side of the gearbox, its not likely to fail. You're more likely to see a failure in the one remaining plastic gear toward the output shaft, if anywhere.

If the unit is the same between 380 DMD's and 540 semi's, I doubt it'll fail due to manufacture, but do to poor assembly by the user (aka poor gear-mesh/alignment or improper mounting)

Frankly I'm not aware of anyone on this side of the pond using the WeCoHe unit, unless Willy got one for comparitive testing.

On the Idlers:

From what I understand, Willy is looking at this, but hasn't officially released an adjuster for the T1 yet. Next time I talk to him, I'll ask.

Ok, got the rest of the brackets done on the deck, here's some pics with one of the tow cables attached.











Hope y'all like em.

panzerpabst, does that wecohe upgrade to the gearbox work with the new gear boxes with the black plastic cover??

.........also, as far as quality is concerned which is a better option, the German wecohe thingy or Wild Willy's?

Why not modify the idler with a spring so it is springloaded, could this reduce the problem?

Reductions, plates, etc...

Willy has decent reductions for much less than the WeCoHe units, plus better motors & setscrew-pinions of various sizes for them that match the existing sets. His reductions bring the Tamiya's down to RCACN-legal speeds (which is properly scale)

Its more the need for belly plates when using metal tracks. As the metal replacements have no give, and the Tiger has no idler springload, all the torque from a track jam is placed between the jam itelf and the sprocket. This has a tendancy to make the light Tamiya chassis flex, and can cause a misalignment that has stripped gears in the old Type 1's, and ruined other components.

Willy did this himself (a strong believer in 'destructive testing' he is) and so marketed his own belly plates initially. I thought I could do it more cheaply (I can, once I have the blasted drill press) If you doubt my word alone, ask Willy (Willy@CustomRCModels.com)

As for the differences between German forum results and US ones, I couldn't say, but Willy may know, as I think he's on some of those forums too.

(shipped 7 Tiger plates, 1 KT, not even made my own yet!)

I asked the guys in our german forum for the chassis reinforcement in case of use of a gear reduction or metal tracks, nobody has trouble with this modifications and nobody uses such belly plates. Some guys here ( especially WhiteWolf) have the opinion it is important to use it. I think you could check it out without such stuff and if you get some trouble apply a additional plate.

Thanks panzerpabst.

Q: Does this gear box upgrade still require a chassis strengthening plate or does it effectively deal with the chassis distorting forces unleashed by the use of metal tracks. This kit will probably be my only ever serious RC tank so I want it as near perfect as reasonably possible (or slightly onreasonable).

Hi sgslorta,

the wecohe gearbox looks very good and the guys who built it in their Tigers are very satisfied - but it is'nt cheap : about 300 EURO (360 $). I'm going to use a gear reduction from Jamara and try to fit it in. Here is a pic:

It's about 25 EURO for each and some additional screw stuff I think it will be an amount of about 60 EUR.

hope I will do some work on my tiger very soon, too much parties just now

Interesting!

So what is this wecohe gear box upgrade like in comparison to the gear modification offered by Wild Willy Racing Custom R / C models at http://www.customrcmodels.com/id498.htm

along with what would seem to be a hull reinforcement plate??

sgslorta,

The recoil upgrade seems nice and it is adjustable but I have decided not to buy it just yet after reading the assembly instructions. I may buy it later, not sure. The way it seems to work is largely based on your battery power. So no movement when battery low, very fast when battery fully charged. From the instructions...

"Because the movements speed depends on the loading capacity of your battery don’t adjust it neither by using fresh reloaded batterys nor nearly empty ones. (If you do the adjustment by using fresh batterys and choose a very slow movement it might cause that if the batterys will become a little bit more empty the movement will stop completely. Otherwise the adjustment of very slow movement by using already nearly empty batteries will become result in a faster movement when you will use freshly reloaded ones. For both cases you will have to correct the adjustment of the potentiometer !)"

It may be absolutely fine and not a problem but I'd rather wait and see if anyone else has found it to be worth it.

The suspension upgrade is very nice. While the Tamiya system is fairly accurate to the way the real kitty's suspension worked many people find the suspension too hard for this scale. It's down to those flat sheet metal bars. Some I believe have experimented with making them thinner, replacing them etc to make it softer. The spring torsion system in the upgrade is really really adjustable so you can make it as hard or soft as you desire. Even supposedly to the point of softening the front and back wheels further than the rest so you get a "lurch" during acceleration and braking. Cool! The only problem I see is that you need to remove all the stuff inside the hull to adjust it, and each torsion bar individually but once you are happy with it that's it! A friend of WW posted about it (how to best set it up) a while ago. Search backwards and you'll find it.

By the way BYA are resellers. I'm glad they are selling the German stuff now from Axel (Schumo-Kits) and the stuff mentioned above and even more...which is made by Wecohe (in Germany too) www.wecohe.de Lots of good stuff there inc. pics and video although it's hard to find everything. And you can buy direct from them via their website with paypal. And to top it off the person who dealt with my purchase was Frank Helmling - the builder of the Kitty model featured on http://www.tamiya.de/include.php?path=content/articles.php&contentid=212&PHPKITSID=ba1065d77c44ca1bb92c3da301d1dca7

Personally I think Panzerpabst is behind it all ;)

Wlad

I've modified the order to the value of the tracks with goodies for an old Porsche turret Tiger 2 that could be better done. Indeed I have ordered the BYA tracks.

It is truly unbelievable how much time one can spend researching on the internet while your arteries clog up from lavck of exercise. I thought I had researched my decision adequately when I made the purchase.

I must say that I bought the full Aber kit before I bought the model in May. But now it might be predominantly unused.

Sgslortaq,

Why dont you cancel your order with Axel and order the BYA ones? Axel is good to deal with and I'm sure will oblige.

Sorry I meant Wlad 's discertation.

Well Chaps,

Thankyou for the advice so far. Keep it coming. I have ordered from Axel. I wish though that I had read Roowalker's advice on early and late tracks and the internal accuracy of exposed pins. This is really my first serious armour project as I have been a figure painter for 20 years. I only build big scale model kits and thusI like the visible detail to be as accurate as reasonably possible. Hence upon reading that bit about the exposed pin, I poured over the web site photos (assuming they are what you get and not just representative). "Bloody Hell! He's right!!" = Bugga!! I should have seen that. You shouldn't combine Test loathsome marking with instruction kit perusal, a cable internet connection & money to burn. Oh well. Next question:

Q: What are your opinions on the recoil upgrade & suspension upgrades from BYA? Are they a bit of an overkill. I understood that the stock torsion bar suspension was actually pretty accurate??

ARRGG... 30 mins composing, and FSM lost my post cause I wasn't logged in.

In Brief:

Roowalker:

I don't use metal tracks 'cause I'm not a battler, just heard about the metals. My only advice: avoid the eBay/HK ones, cause they are reported as GARBAGE. All the tankers that got 'em said the pins bend, tracks are 'curved', or whatever. Buy BYA, Axel or direct from Kenny. 'nuff said.

Related:

I won't be making any more countersunk plates until I can secure a proper drill press. My eBay man is trying to surcharge me, so that one is held up, and my $ along with it. My first major prob in 4 years, and just when I'm in a rush.

The current backlog ~will~ go out Monday as I blew for a Wolfcraft/Cdn. Tire unit, but its no good for the long haul as ~each~ sink has to be repeatedly checked (d*mn*ed impact plastic flex!)

There are two Tiger plates available at a discount price of $30 each. #1 has 'supersunk' holes, though there is enough grab there (Tamiya wafer-washers could be used to bolster the bolts too) #2 was sunk on the wrong side (don't work when you're frustrated!) so the mechanism holes are transposed. If ya don't mind flipping your mech-deck, great way to save $10.

Slightly off-topic:

My 1/16 Imex V2 kit arrived, and oddly enough, on the 60th anniversary of the date they began falling on England (Thanks Wlad)

After examining the kit, I've found its not suitable for my project, so anyone wanting one of these sweeties is welcome to make an buy/trade offer.

As a trade I'm looking at the Estes #1952 V2 kit (rated 1:19 scale but more 1:16.5) or perhaps a stripped/static V2 kit from Mountainside Hobbies (www.MountainsideHobbies.net/kits.htm)

The Imex is untouched but incomplete as the original metal parts packing bag tore (I'll be repacking it in better bags) The parts are replacable with brass-copper rod (fuel lines and braces) All the vacuform is intact, and the clearview panel still has its protective film. Instructions are rather good too.

Off to sleep, gotta work all tomorrow to ship the plates Monday...

Hi sgslorta and welcome to the forum! Must be quite a challenge to build the kit upsidedown!

Note that the tracks pictured are different - the ones featured on Axels site are "early style" and those pictured on BYA are "late style" with chevrons added to each track link. This was introduced sometime between October and December '43 (sources differ) supposedly to aid traction on ice and packed snow.

There are a few pics of early model Tigers (with drum style cuppola) that have the late style tracks. These must have been fitted in the field from spares or from wrecked newer Tigers. Of course from late '43 onwards.

From an accuracy point of view those on Axels site have exposed track pins on the inside (like the Tamiya ones) which are not correct. Must be a decision to ease production. Those on BYA (Kenny Kong's I believe) are fully formed ie. you can't see the pins. Although you can't see much of this area on the finished model.

From a performance point of view I doubt there will be any difference. Quality wise I think both would be similar too but the gleaming metal of Axels ones look a bit nicer (prior to painting). I have the Kenny Kong ones and am very happy with them. I hope this helps.

Wlad.

Welcome,welcome, sgslorta!! IMHO,the Tiger I tracks that Tamiya supplies
look just fine when properly painted, 'cause the open inner side of the links
are about hidden when installed,& the ejector pin marks match pretty
closely to the prototype casting marks..I keep my speed down in the
yard & haven't had any breakage problems YET,but if you get into a
firefight with a Pershing the metal might be nice to have!!
I haven't seen any AM metal tracks with open guide horns yet, which is
the biggest shortcoming I feel on Tamiyas product...
I yield the floor to White Wolf whom I know has more experience on
this # than I do. Again, Welcome Aboard!
Roowalker

G'Day guy's

Have read this forum with much interest here in Australia but would appreciate some opinions regarding the metal tracks for the Tiger 1. Which supplier has the best quality product in your opinion. Considering I live in Australia I’m going to be hit with import duty whether I source them from Germany at http://www.axels-modellbau-shop.de/storeeng/index.htm or from the USA at http://www.backyardarmor.com/products.htm. I would imagine that the German product is probably better than the Hong Kong sourced ones sold by Back Yard Armour????

Any opinions since you are a long term member of the forum??

Yes they are soooo much better than the Aber ones, just by comparing the pics against the physical Aber parts. Mmmm, temptation...

Very busy Wlad.

Skrull:

Make sure your bushings are not spinning within the gears, but spinning on the shafts. Easiest way is to carefully open one box, then use some of the 'locktite' to glue the bearings into the gears (place the shaft inside to make sure the bushings are seated and square) Let set a few hours, and then re-asemble, and do the other side.

If you can find some very thin washers, shimming the gear-shafts might help. I noticed there is rather a lot of slop...

PzPabst:

Damn those look nice... and bet they come with handles pre-attached... they even look licer than the Aber ones up close. I'm waiting for their Allied PE stuff...

Wlad, WW
yeah I used grease on mine already but it's still noisy - i supose it's just normal then, the turret gears are a lot quieter now so I'm slightly happy ;)

Panzer
NIce news from axels, they did mention the track holders to me when i contacted them early this week but they didn't say that they are already producing/manufacturing them. Happily I don't need them all thanks to your kind donation =)

Some news from the Deutsche Panzerfront :

Axels Modellbau Shop offers some new stuff :

Some mid and late production stuff for the Tiger I coming soon (commanders cupola)

I temporary put on the wheels on my cat and drove around a little, what a fun. Want metal tracks ... want it - want it - want it.

Wlad:

QUOTE: Skrull, I dunno about grease, I'm using Lithium grease (nice and white and about £3 a big 100ml tub - for my bike originally) but noisy gears I think we'll all suffer from... WW?

Um... as I've not really run mine all that much yet, I'm not the one to ask. I'll probably end up using some of my numerous tubes of switch lube (that usually destroyed the speed controllers if used) as lubricant. Its plastic-safe, and doesn't harden up.

QUOTE: I seem to recall somewhere that the recommended volume for the speaker unit was between half and three quarters. It just aint meant to be on less than "Spinal Tap" level! With the speaker noise cancelling out the gear noise. WW, please answer this, oh RC One!

Well, until I get my BYA back deck on my Sherman, I won't know for sure... plus I'm running a chopped sound box besides. I guess it depends on if you have stowage on the aft deck, whats going on around ya, and other factors. By yourself inside to terrorise the pets, half may be enough, but in a noisy 'battle-arena' you may need it 3/4 or more. Go with what works.

PS. WW, sad but happy about your museum. Think I'm going to take a few days off sometime soon from reality and for myself and visit Bovington and the Imperial War museum etc. I should! They are all available and relatively close! and who knows what treasures i may find.

Wlad.

Abermeister, coooool!!! Thanks for that. Thats exactly what I want to do!

It makes me wonder even more now... about reality.

Even though it was amoured glass in there, there must have been some way of preventing the enemy from just popping a grenade or two or three there, on top of the glass when down/ beside when up, but under the cover? Initially to blow the glass or mountings and then another to drop inside? Close quarters I know, but the situation must have arisen. 505th had barbed wire on the sides at Zitadelle to try and prevent infantry from mounting the vehicle. Why would it be a "pop up" and not permanent? I recall only one vague picture of it in the up position. Only in battle? Why? Any theories anyone?Mmmm, one bit of understanding leads to a total lack of another for me...

Skrull, I dunno about grease, I'm using Lithium grease (nice and white and about £3 a big 100ml tub - for my bike originally) but noisy gears I think we'll all suffer from... WW?
I seem to recall somewhere that the recommended volume for the speaker unit was between half and three quarters. It just aint meant to be on less than "Spinal Tap" level! With the speaker noise cancelling out the gear noise. WW, please answer this, oh RC One!

Unless you've had a bellyfull... lol!

Panzerpabst, what's happening on the Deutsche front? Any news or innovations?

Wlad.

I have loads of inane general questions - things I just dont understand that I'm saving up for one post, not about anything specific but about "why' "how" etc. Jot yours down! and we'll pool our resources!

QUOTE: Originally posted by Wlad Abermeister Erush, Big thanks for the Tamiya de-detailing tips, that really helps me. I think you are doing an amazing job and really look forward to your posts. I'm just trying to understand the periscope bits and if its possible to make them somehow viewable from the outside like this (top pic) http://www.tamiya.de/include.php?path=content/articles.php&contentid=203&PHPKITSID=ba71770064e77217711691ca005232d6 Wlad.

Wlad,
Sorry I missed this post earlier. Thanks for the compliments, I really appreciate them!

And the periscopes will show like the picture you linked...

Here's the outside view of the hatch i detailed


Here's the other hatch I plan to NOT detail


And what I did was just used the upper portion of the scope and glued some styrene around the bottom of it to space it against the bottom of the hatch.


Hope this helps you out some. Let me know if there's anything else I can try to help with!

Eric