ARMOR - Tamiya 1/16 Tiger 1 Group Build

yeah, like i said before if there's anything you want the site to include just give me the details and i'll include it in the website. It'll be nice to have most of everything related to the 1/16 Tiger to be in one website, information, pics etc. I just need the details and I'll make a page for it.

WW is the man for all the gears and stuff, I don't understand them myself but that's only because i didn't plan to go that far with the motors and stuff. In time i might but not yet ;)

Well I'm planning on making a pretty stock Tiger to start with, plainest German Gray camo, mostly stock parts.
My skills, patience and time kinda rule out the Aber kit but as I plan on using the kit outdoors it'll probably get knocked about a bit anyway.

I guess I'm not a modeller in the sense most of you are, I'm more interested in getting it done and usable than getting the detail right (sorry!). It's actually quite out of character for me to want to prime and spray it rather than just build it and play, so I'm going to put some effort in. I've just bought a Tamiya Spray-Works basic from HKC on eBay, hopefully that will be good enough for what I intend at the moment.

Maybe I'll experiment a bit at a later date with a camo pattern, try some wash effects etc. If all goes well I hope to build another in the future (for the missus) and apply what I've learned doing this one. I know, damned expensive way of doing it [:0]

I will try and keep some notes of what I've done and take some piccies as I go along. Might be helpful for other noob's such as myself. Anyone else here the same as me or are you all real modellers?

Steve

Steve:

There is at least one other dilettante here -- me.

I've been working on the Tank since early 2002. I've added a pretty minimal amount of third-party detail parts (better tow hooks, engine mesh screens, metal rear mud flaps). I've broken a few parts in installation (the white pieces that go to the gun elevation, the flash unit connector, rear mud flaps) and either had to replace them or repair them. I also added the Armour Concepts transmission upgrade (I had the original gear boxes).

I haven't finished the final painting or detailing and am leaning toward doing a desert Tiger to avoid the necessity of doing the camo. (Never used an airbrush and don't necessairly want to start on this model). I'll make up my mind this weekend. I don't suppose that anyone has any extras of the alternative Fifel cleaners from the static kit they would want to sell?

At the same time, I've learned alot about doing a model on this scale and complexity. My wife has already signed off on the Leopard for sometime later this year, and I'll have to learn to use the airbrush at somepoint after that. I must say though, that building this thing has been simulatenously one of the most frustrating and enjoyable things I've done.

Good luck and keep us posted on your progess.

Ira

Thanks Ira.
I must admit the mesh engine screens sound like a good idea. Will have to see where I can get them and how much.

Hopefully I'll get time to prime the metal chassis at the weekend and maybe spray-up and assemble the base the weekend after. I should be OK with the can of metal primer but the spray gun will be breaking new ground for me too!

Here's a question for the panel, do you prime and paint the suspension arms before or after attaching to the chassis?

Steve

Oh no, another Wlad diatribe...

My Belly Plate Report!

Let me preface this report by saying I only know WhiteWolf from this forum and owe him no favours (except for all the good advice he's posted on this forum) or even disfavours for that matter. If you don't know what a "Belly Plate" is about just go back a few pages in the forum for an explanation.

A little background then:
The only thing I really know about engineering is that its got lots of 'e's in it and that every construction needs a good solid foundation. Upon inspection the Tamiya kit chassis really is flimsy to say the least - little more than a light and bendy aluminum? tub and the plastic hull doesn't really add to the strength of the chassis. It might be just fine for medium running of the model straight out the box and be suitable for a lot of people - I don't know. I planned from the beginning on adding those beefy metal tracks and god knows what else which adds a lot more weight to the model, which the whole of the chassis and gearbox bits were not really designed to take. Although I don't plan on thrashing mine around I'm sure that on the odd occasion I won't "spare the horses" either. And I just don't want to go through the whole build process, drive it a few times and end up with something that doesn't go as well as it should and deteriorates even more from there. There are other products out there that I've heard of to help solve the problem of chassis twist etc, one that braces the gearboxes across the top (a partial solution I believe and I have one), and even another belly plate, but when another member of the forum announced his intention of developing them for sale at a good price I thought "I'll have one of those!"

So here I am, customer No. 001 of the WW Tiger 1 Belly Plate!

The Belly Plate arrived sooner than I expected but still with the usual trans-Atlantic postage period. It was actually preceeded by an email upon despatch from WW which stated (not verbatim but close) "I'm not 100% happy with it, see what you think. If you are not happy I'll make you another free of charge or refund your money, either way you get to keep it."

Hey? So I'm on a winner here either way! I guess because its his first and you never know what someone else will think of your work. Don't expect the same offer now! So it was with some trepidation that I opened that really flat package, content obvious to me by it's lack of width. First impression, excitement! Silly how I can get excited by a flat piece of metal with holes drilled in it. I admit to being a bit partial to aluminum too.

It's cool! A 2.3mm thick slab of 6061-T6 aluminum drilled with countersunk holes in the right places to attach to the underside of the model. Actually, to attach to the gearbox /torsion stays etc from underneath and create a real solid chassis. The mounting hardware supplied to replace those ugly soft round Tamiya screws are simply gorgeous! Countersunk head hex bolts! Mmm nice, and I got a spare too! So even though you are adding 2.3mm to the depth of the bottom hull you gain by hiding all the fixings. The width and length are right for my Tiger, the forward and rear edges slightly bevelled, the side ones flat. And there's a really simple solution to still give you access to the track tension screws.

To fit it you need to undo all the Tamiya screws (except the track tension ones) yeah it means that blue tamiya threadlock has to be broken ( I emailed him about how to break the lock before trying it - never had anything to do it with it before) - ummm, get a decent screwdriver and unscrew it. He was right, what Tamiya threadlock? then pop the belly plate on the bottom and use the countersunk head hex bolts to attach it back to the bits inside (gearboxes and torsion bar stays etc) you dont remove the Tamiya one its just sandwiched between, (well at least i didn't remove it). I had to adjust the 3 screws that attach the plastic hull to the Tamiya chassis (loosened them a little) and twiddled my track torsion assemblies (badly put together in the first place) and then a perfect fit. As soon as you fit it the difference is noticeable to the whole feel of the hull and chassis assembly (even by touch), hard to describe but its just real, real solid.

Criticisms: The countersinking could be a little neater as far as finish goes, and there were some scuff marks on the plate (surface scratches from all his work) but in fairness this is an engineering modification, not one designed to look pretty and sits underneath the model where people shouldn't really be looking anyway. And this is the first! So nothing at all really and I'm sure it will only get better.

So what I plan (in my infinite madness) since I want a "looker" as well as a "runner" is to bevel the front and back edges even more so they match up with the angles of the last sloping surfaces and fill any resulting gaps for a seamless blend. It may be better looks-wise to severely bevel them all if you really want to make it disappear. Mmmm where is my angle grinder? Lol!

Conclusion: I'm glad I've got it, I found no reason to return it, it's staying on my model permanently and now I'm confident I've got a runner, it's up to me to make it a "looker" as well. If you doubt my sincerity, I have ordered another (at no discount and prior to this report) as a present for a friend who has just caught the "bug" and ordered his full option Tiger 1.

Nuff said.

Wlad.

PS. Apologies to all for lack of pics (see previous posts) and from now on no more reviews/reports and long posts except for monosyllabic ones (unless by demand which I doubt!) Hooray!!!

sjbuk,

a really cool site to see a couple of complete builds (if you haven't been there already) is from the good blokes that started this whole thing off. I learned a hell of a lot by absorbing it all in detail. Mentioned near the beginning but here's the link http://www.erock68.com

Wlad.

Wlad:

Thanks for the review. The 'rough' countersinks are because i have no drill press, but I'm hoping to add something to do the sinks neatly before the next ones are issued.

I tried to buff the light scratches out, but thought " Hell, its gonna be primed & painted anyway, and then its gonna get gouged further during use. "

sjbuk

Welcome to the addiction, er... whatever. Lets see, what you already have...
metal tracks, check; barrel, check; recoil upgrade, check; Suspension being pondered (I'm told its nice, gives a more realistic ride)

Forget the Zagi's, cause they changed since the big order way back. They are unidirectional now, and would unbalance the gearbox power badly.

Willy Loewer has both reductions (for a more scale speed) and small black motors that have the Zagi's beat. Brass set-screw pinions too! You can find him at www.CustomRCModels.com .

The biggest thing found was with metal tracks and the new black-cover gearboxes was a lack of a 'weak point (like a shear pin) On the stock kit it is plastic tracks and some plastic gear parts. With metal tracks and mostly metal gears, and no springload to the idler, unless you reinforce the chassis pan, you're going to get twist in that light aluminum. That will mis-align the tracks on the idler, sprocket and roadwheels, and can mess the works up. The solution: A bolt-on belly plate (as Wlad has spoken of)

$40 USD gets a 6061-T6 plate, predrilled for all the holes (I can leave out the mech-deck ones if you don't like it) with either low-profile heads or countersunk ones (stainless steel hex-key) Hardware and shipping is included in that price. I'm currently slightly backlogged as one payment is late, and its prevented me from picking up the plates at the metal shop.

Added detailing? www.Build-a-Rama.com has great stowage items, and most of it aint scale intensive. Their stowage set is real fabric, and the sandbags are fabric bags with real sand! Willy sells Dirk's stuff, but I don't know if he's able to get stuff. The Aber ammo set is to die for, and I found the cheapest supplier: http://www.jadar.com.pl/start-a.htm in Poland! $19.72 a set (postage to NA is under $3) but the navigation is a bit of a pain to get in... If there is interest, I'll post a step-by-step of how-to-navigate to get to the Aber set.

The other two prime makers of parts are Markus's crew at http://www.rcpanzer-shop.de/shop_en/index.php and Axel's bunch at http://www.axels-modellbau-shop.de/storeeng .

I forget anything? oh yes... AVOID the eBay / Hong Kong made stuff. The tracks are rip-offs, as are all the other parts. We've had too many of the RC guys complain about the eBay ones.

Wlad

Thanks for the link, I managed to miss that during my trawl through the group. Some lovely pics and good advice there. Love the paint-jobs, will definitely have a bash at washing, the effect is superb.

WhiteWolf

Will definitely have a plate off you, after Wlads write-up it looks like the real deal. i suspect I won't need the mech deck holes? Will contact you about payment. I'll have a look at the links, probably get the reductions, pinion and motors. The tank will probably get a fair bit of use outdoors so I want it as durable as possible.


I got the tracks from eBay but they were originally sourced from over here. Quality looks good (heavy and look well cast) but I'm no expert, will have see. The BYA barrel and other bits haven't been sent yet but it's only been just over a week. Seems they are having trouble getting stuff out.

Steve

oh WW, are you still planning on selling your Abers bits? would you have the rear toolbox bits. I'd like to purchase it from you if i can. save me from scratchbuilding ;)

Skrull,

With a banner now!, like the links section of your site too. Nice detail pics of the V tiger on that other site. Mmmm, loads of texture on it, 60 years worth of being in the open or ... how we think they should be, minus a few years. Will try and contribute, specially fave books. Guys this is the oportunity to get all the info organised and in one place rather than pages and pages of forum stuff to trawl thru, good for us, great for the newbie. Skrull is happy, what more do we need...

Shorter Wlad.

Hi,

worked on the front part and the wheels last days, know its a little chaos on my build but better than not working on my tiger

Here is a sample pic of the wheels with primer. More pics you can find at

www.boorad.de



Bye

Skrull:

I read about your 'Steel Wheel manufacture... and have a few questions (and if they sound like criticisms, please don't interpret them that way)

In your research, did you find the 'collars' on the intake casting for the Feifel breather tubes on any other Tigers? I ask as this might hide any cutting inaccuracies, and the inherent 'bend' in the tubing we're issued... (PS: you gonna use yours?)

When you cast your wheels, did you use a parting compound in the mold? I've used Vinamold (a thermoplastic) for casting simple lead miniatures, and found even thin cooking oil helped a lot. I found that in a pinch, even flour would work, and gave the cast a slight 'textured' surface.

When it came time to do the steel 'rims', why not go with something that would wear better (seeing as its clearly RC) like a solder-sealed brass rim, or a neatly key'd strip of aluminum?

Why not sell the uneven-spin rims as 'detailing' rims to others who have done the steel-wheel mod to their Tigers? It might help you recoup any losses due to the recastings and uneven rim-spins.

And any chance of having the image-clicks pull up higher-res images? I'd love to see a close-up of the bow-plate track clips. How many Kitties had that turret hatch alteration (to let it lay flat)

Wlad
Yeah, like me banner? ;) I couldn't think of anything else so instead opted for something simple and it did take me a while to get a pic up, couldn't understand how to do until i checked the help-page section. I know there's another website out there that gives you ref pictures of all sorts of tanks but I can't remember the web addy, that will be really usefull as well. I'll find it yet but in the mean time, just send me details - we seem to have the same thoughts and ideas for the website =) I'd like to get a review up on the Zagi motors with pics comparisons but WW keeps changing his opinion ;)

WW
Would you have pic comparison of the gears/motors? As for your quiestions, not at all, ask away though you have to remember I am not as adept at this as some of you are. the feifel filter, I didn't really research that much, my Ref materials are very minimum as would cost me a fortune to get the right books i needed. As for the tubing, nope, not gonna use it. As for the wheels, once the mold was done, i didn't use any parting compound as i found i didn't need to to release the cast from the mold. it was fairly easy though one of the mold did give me problems and needed my wife's help to get out.

Steel Rims, I did toy with the idea of casting in metal/alluminium (whatever is available) but that would have been more expensive and one i have no experience with and am not brave enough for that yet. Would be great though. Now when/if I redesign the wheels, it would be a combination of the KT steel rims and resin which I can see could work better. Depends on whether BA is deffinately doing it or not really. As for selling the spare steel wheels, I hadn't really thought about that really and just threw them away.

and errr ... what's the bow plate track clips? ;) I can probably provide high res images but unfortunately not the earlier build pics as I've reduced the original images to what they are now without thinking it through. Wasn't really planning on having higher res images till halfway through the web construction.

and to my knowledge, The Fehrmann tiger is the only one that had the cupola hatch altered to make it lie flat, Otto Carious, even though he mentioned about the problems with the hatch there wasn't anything done about it.

Hi Guys,
Regarding the "cupola hatch altered to make it lie flat" I have seen a few pics here and there, probably Tigers in Combat 1, that show quite a few of the 505th that have this alteration (but only from late '43 - will check). I believe a few other groups may have made the mod too. I think it's really a grey area and the only definitive guide we have are pics from the time. Here's a link to a bit about it on missing-lynx... http://www.network54.com/Forum/thread?forumid=47207&messageid=1044703437

Wlad.

good find Wlad, I may link to that page as well, be nice to have pics *hint hint* ;)

Will see what I can do. I only have Tiger I On The Eastern Front, and Western Front, but a friend has TIC -both of them! Mighty weighty they are too!

Skrull:

Comparison of the Zagi's and Willy's black ones are up on his page (somewhere...)

My 'flipflop' on the Zagi's is because after we made our 'bulk' order a few years ago, they ~changed~ the construction of them. The timing, instead of being 'neutral', was advanced in one direction. Thats why they sell two different ones now. And from what I understand, the two don't have equal timing, and are inferior to the originals. Some of our guys bought them and found this out.

Does that make sense now? If I need any more motors, its Willy's blacks that I'll buy, more than likely.

Wlad, have both TIC, will have a look tonight. If I understand that right, you're looking for pics of early Tigers mith the new cupola?

Hi Panzerpabst,
No, early drum style cupola with the hatch open and in a flat position, not 110 degrees as per normal. A field modification by some units from late '43 onwards.

panzer

yeah if you look at the link given, it even gives the page numbers that the pictures are in, it'd be good if you can scan the pictures for us =)

WW
It did make sense before but I was just wondering how to condense all the information so that i can put a review page up. Will work on it tonight anyway based on what you've already written. Would love to have the books but i'm yet to find an affordable one, say less than £30?! ;)

Hi Guys,

Skrull, I'll email you tonight with some pics from the book. I think WW was after a bigger pic of the "folded brass hooks" in the electric cable pic, first pic on your page 2. production line.

For all, here's what we were talking about regarding the flat hatch. Other pics I'll give to Skrull to use on his website. All pics from Tiger 1 on the Eastern front.



This is in the 503rd section of the book.


WW, if you are interested in the tracks hung on the front of Skrulls kitty, here's a low-tech solution...



caption reads "A Tiger from the 3rd company note the wire holding the spare track links." (503rd again)

Panzerpabst, I like your wheels! I'm afraid I have some bad news for you... you have to buy another 3 Aber ammo sets so you can display them like this...



If anyone wants a bigger pic just email me.

Wlad.

I found a pic of WhiteWolf at work on the master belly plate...

good find there, now you know why WW's plates are so dirty and chaffed ;)

and do send me those pics so that i can organise them on the website, i suppose it's lucky that there isn't a close up shot of the hatch coz I'm sure I've cut mine wrong heh

What extra grease are you using on your Tiger btw? My gears are soo noisy that i'm gonna need a big dollop of the stuff but i don't wanna get any old grease in case.

Skrull!

They ain't dirty! Mebbe Customs play-tested 'em first?

I first file them in the shower to take off the sharp edges from the brake, then drill & sink the holes (will be getting a press to do it now) then back in the shower to de-burr them.

Why the shower? Cause I'm in an apartment, have two cats, and have crappy lungs besides. The shower washes away any aluminum dust before it becomes airborne, protecting me and the cats. I cut my resin there too! Just have to be sure to re-oil the tools afterwards!

When I pick up the plates, they still have sharp edges from the brake, and metal dust from the shop (they do lotsa metalworking) I even sometimes have to scrub off the plate ID inking (that says it was 6061-T6 and hand-written markings of same (grease pencil of some sort) Nice part is I can pick thru the 'trash-metal' pile, and get odd bits for nothing! Compared to the way I pick the plates up, they are clean enough to eat off of when I ship 'em! To get 'em any cleaner, I'd have to autoclave/sterilize 'em! Don't ask, I'm not going that far!

What-ifs...

Next on the burner: casting up copies er, duplicates of Tamiya's gorgeous German jerrycans, ()yes, if they are good I'll offer them up to you guys, AFTER I have some back-stock!)

And then... assembling a tracked V2/A4 rocket carrier for a ~very~ special diorama. I secured the gorgeous Imex V2 kit yesterday, and its on its way... Don't ask, I want the first shots to be a surprise, even if the scene is a very rough sample-assembly. And yea, the launcher will move from 'travel' position to vertical 'launch' position!

Hi freaks

flat hatch pics can now be downloaded from my site:
http://www.boorad.de/Body/Tiger/additional/505pic1.jpg
http://www.boorad.de/Body/Tiger/additional/505pic2.jpg
http://www.boorad.de/Body/Tiger/additional/505pic3.jpg
http://www.boorad.de/Body/Tiger/additional/505pic4.jpg

Quality is'nt the best because I have'nt a scanner.

www.boorad.de

PanzerPabst::

Very interesting pics... I'd love to see clean shots of those.

In image #1, there are no s-mines visible, though you can see the vague shadow of its aft deck extinguisher. No exhaust guards on her, and there appears to be something hung off/under the far side feifel cleaner, though draped over the nearside one are the tow cables. Mud guard on that side seems bent down more than normal too.

In #2 you can see both the helmets and watch caps hung on the turret bin, and the shredded track guard and missing rear mud flap. Can't tell if thats the s-mine launcher or a light off the front corner, but the weather bags on the muzzle brakes are clear.

In pic #3 that turret is being hoisted with one of the portable cranes used for unloading the V2/A4 rockets from their trains and moving them to their transport trainers. Again, clear shot of the brake cover, and still no lights or s-mine throwers in the shot. There are pics of the crane on the V2 site: http://www.v2rocket.com/start/start.html

In #4, the tow hooks are being stored on the glacis between the MG kugelblende and the vision port, acting basically as more 'splash armor where the tracks won't fit. I'm just wondering what that is up on the tiger's roof... looks like a piece of tree trunk 'slice' that are often used for seats around a campfire. That RTO/hull gunner looks ~awfully~ young... and again, no throwers or lights.

on your web-page, Fehrmann's 'stranded' Tiger image shows the right-side Bosch light about where the s-mine unit should be, and the brake might be hiding the other one... did the Germans dismount lights & s-mines like the Allies did their Sherman lights?

Wlad:

Noticed something in your pics too...

In the wired-up tracks image, look at the binocular-sight openings... just above it is a triangular welded plate. Step, gunsight 'visor', or something else?

In the flathatch image, there is something odd bolted to the lower section of the cupola... could it be the base of an AAMG mounting?

In the ammo shot... whats that cradle-shaped asembly sitting up on the aft deck? The curve is too big to be an ammo round cradle... but could it be a makeshift barrel travel rest?

I agree, absolutely fascinating...

WW,
My GUESS is that the triangular welded bit is a in the field mod "rain guard" or "visor". Glad you noticed. I like the small /medium arms damage to the gun mantlet.

The bit that you think bolted to the lower part of the cupola (underneath hatch?) I have not a clue, could be whale droppings or as you say "mg base" but seems too early, still looks like something major that has been sheared off in battle to me, or a bit of tree and leaves.

I agree on no. 3. Doesn't make sense. Not part of the engine deck flipped up, its very thick but seems precisely manufactured, who could make something like that in the field in Italy at the time? Stone? Marble? It seems built to rest a barrel on... or maybe a large salami!

Photo interpretation is a dark thing and open to speculation but I love it! 3 pics and 3 things that dont fit in the rule book!

Doh !!!

The something odd bolted to the lower section of the cupola in the flat hatch image is the remains of the arm that held the hatch up at 110 degrees! Lol !!! I can't see the wood for the trees.

WW

I just found a site that sells some Aber parts individually, JOhn's Discount Hobbies. If you still want a replacement Front fenders you can get it here http://www.johnsdiscounthobbies.com/product.asp?pid=AB%20160004

I missed out on the Aber toolbox set on ebay so i might just get it from this hobbies shop. The feifel rubber tubing, if you still want it you can have it for the price of shipping, let me know and i'll get a quote.