Panzer Aces GB January 2007 to May 31, 2008

 Hi Hermesminiatures,

An interesting point of view, to which I respond point by point below:

   Both Jentz and Restayn state that Wittmann used his own Tiger #205 after taking over from von Westerhagen, in June.

I don't know which tank Michael used between the day he assumed command of the Company on 10th July until 8th August, I've read that his last sortie was also his 1st in 007. Also wasn't the 2nd company in another at the time (Grisbosq?)  so he may well have use 205 if with the 2nd company, but as the battalion was spread about would possibly have to take which ever was available where needed at the time.

     -Commanders often switched tanks, but the crews were generally assigned. If Wittmann was to take over 007, he would have had to leave his crew for von Westerhagen's - which is highly unlikely knowing how well he liked Bobby Woll, his gunner. 

Wittmann's liking of Woll is not a factor, as Woll was by then in command of his own tank and had only been reunited with Wittmann again at VB as his own mount was out of action. 

      -Wittmann had a well-known dislike for commanding any tank with the distinguishing "00" in the turret number - both Russians and Americans knew this signified an officer's mount, and would result in Wittmann's being singled out as an especially important target. He had a very close call in a 00 tank on the eastern front, and after that refused to command any vehicle marking in such a manner. He wanted to paint out the 00 on his last mount, leaving just the 8, but was told he could not.

Agreed, but with the attrition at this stage of the campaign there wasn't much choice, Also does not all of the above equally apply had it been 008? The fact that it was a last minute decision to join the attack may well have been a factor.

Even if he used 007 at all, Wittmann's tank on 8/8/44, the date of his death, was certainly not von Westerhagen's 007. This tank was recorded as broken down and out of action around the middle of July,

Quite clearly it wasn't out of action, as previously stated, it was photographed at the site of the battle after the war with it's turret blown off, and eye witness accounts from Wittmann's unit saw this happen (Note that 009 was also believed to have been knocked out in this battle, but photos of the wreck show the turret in place.) 

 it isn't Wittmann's tank and it isn't von Westerhagen's either.

Obviously not Von Westerhagen's, as he was on sick leave.

It is absolute fact that Wittman died in 008 - all of the experts agree on this.

No they don't! How about the fact that Wittmanns remains were recovered within yards of the recorded site of the wreck of 007 in 1983?

Regards, Neil 

P.S. Sorry about using bold text to show my comments, but I'm new to this forum. 

This may be one of those things that never really gets solved.  As you can see from some of the details surrounding his demise, and some of the conflicting evidence that is out there, it will be a topic that will forever be debated. 

Great job guys digging up all the info, and I really appreciate the civility of everyone participating in the discussion.  I'm learning a lot from all of you. 

Some good points neil_kirby, however my only remaining problem would be that the tank show with the turret blown off has the turret numbering in white, not red like von Westerhagen's original mount. sSSPzAbt did recieve two or three final production command vehicles in early August, of which white 008 was Wittmann's assigned vehicle. Since the two (three?) Befhelstigers involved in Wittmann's final battle were rushed up at the last minute, he could have used the new, white lettered 007 rather than 008. However, this was not von Westerhagen's old mount; the older vehicle had red numerals bordered in white on the sides of the turret, and red again on the rear of the stowage box. The numerals on the famous photo are clearly white:

This is probably the tank Wittmann died in, however he probably only used it for ~30 minutes on August 8th, since his assigned mount was 008 and it was so new it wouldn't have  had a chance to break down. I guess it will be the decision of each modeler as both 007 and 008 would be accurate, as long as white numerals are used and not the red ones.

 I am enjoying this discussion and don't view your posts as being offensive at all. I think the Bundesarchiv probably has the necessary evidence to solve the whole Wittmann mystery, but they are notoriously unfriendly to anyone who isn't in the publishing business In other words, it probably will remain a mystery.

Duke Maddog wrote:

Hey, when you get here, look me up. PM me and I can give you my E-mail and Cell phone. You are also invited to accompany me to my IPMS Orange County club meetings. See you then!

Hey Duke, I'll take you up on that!  Thanks for the generosity!  I hope I can do the move sooner than later!  Actually there is a possibility that I may be working in Santa Ana.  Is that close to your club meeting place?

Yes, Santa Ana is fairly close to our meeting place. We have a couple of members who live in Santa Ana too I believe. If you have a map or mapquest, check out Buena Park. That is where we hold our meetings in the La Quinta Inn near the 605 Freeway and Valley View.

Looking forward to hearing from you. 

Thanks for the discussion, but lets not get started on who knocked him out ;-) While we are on this subject, does anyone know the numbers of the 3 tigers that the 1st company handed over to the 3rd when the former were withdrawn to refit with tiger II's?

 Regards,

Neil Kirby 

Oh, let's do discuss it!

I think it was probably a Firefly, which could have KO'd Wittmann's tank but left it fairly intact, and then the wreck was probably strafed later by Typhoons, causing the catastophic damage seen in the pictures. As for the eyewitness who said he saw the turret blown off, well, people tend to overestimate damage when a comrade gets killed. A 17 lb AP shell could have hit the left side of the hull (the only area there are no pictures of) and blown the ammo stored in the left sponson, which could have lifted the turret from its ring, or blown it off altogether. If the ammo was hit, it could have mangled the armor so badly the original AP impact hole was no longer visible.

I highly doubt it was a Typhoon that actually caused the destruction of Wittmann's tank; there were definitely no Typhoons, Tempests or Thunderbolts in the area on August 8th, and the rocket damage to the engine deck could have been caused later by strafing Typhoons (which is also why I doubt that the turret was completely lifted out of the ring by the initial blast, the aircraft would often strafe KO'd tanks to be sure they really were dead - for the Germans often disguised live tanks as KO'd, successfully ambushing many Allied armored columns - and I doubt if the Typhoons would have strafed a tank that was missing its turret)

This hasn't really been suggested before, but I think Wittmann was probably badly wounded by the intial blast, not killed - for his remains, and those of his crew were found ~20m to the left of the hull of 007, and the turret about 10m the other direction! Of course, since his body wasn't found until 1983 (?) it couldn't really be determined how he was wounded, and whoever found him probably would have though it indecent to pick through his bones to try to determine the cause of death, which I would agree with. So, given the above evidence, this is my theory:

007's ammo was hit by a Firefly, which most likely badly wounded/killed the loader, gunner, and commander Wittmann. It would have cause quite an explosion, and probably cocked or lifted the turret some. It wouldn't have affected the driver and radio operator because there was a 130mm firewall between them and the main compartment. Remember that this was the AP ammo, not HE which Wittmann rarely carried, so it wouldn't have been quite as deadly as HE. I'm thinking the 2 unwounded crew members would have tried to help the others out, and attempted to escape, but were gunned down by some other force. Otherwise, why would the entire crew have been found within 10m of each other, in the opposing direction from where the turret was found? Finally, remember the Tigers would have been advancing in a shallow wedge pattern, most likely with Wittmann leading, so whatever any other crews saw, it wouldn't have been a very good view out of the commander's cupola periscopes.

Although, I didn't just explain Wittmann's death, did I? I just added another unidentified canidate! Arggggh!

Maybe we should leave it alone, to modify a saying let a dead, uh...tank commander...lie. 

Another thing I just thought of, the tank could have been on fire, the crew got out, but then the ammo blew, knocking the turret off and killing Wittmann and his crew.

Oh well. Does it really matter? Only to those who want the title of "killer of the great tank ace" , and if we say it was a secondary explosion, nobody can claim to have killed him

 I won't mention Wittmann again for awhile.

Hermes- Don't sweat it. As others have previously mentioned this is one interesting GB. I kinda' feel like I'm back in college writing research papers sometimes  - make a point and then explain your reasoning and cite sources to back it up, etc, etc, ad infinitum. 

-John

PS- I know I promised y'all some Tank pixs from my trip to the musuem a couple of weeks ago. I've managed to clean up most of them. Now I just have to create the folders on the website and upload them all. Mama told me there'd be weeks like these . If I quit goofing off I should have them together in a day or two .

Look forward to seeing your pictures, once you get them uploaded.

I started my Jagdpanther tonight, after 4 1/2 months of talking about it! I got the road wheels cleaned and assembled in about 40 minutes, which is a record for me and Panther wheels

I have yet to look at the instructions for the Voyager PE set, and I'm not exactly looking forward to it. Those parts all look so pretty there on their frets, maybe I'll just leave them there...

I'll post pictures tomorrow. 

Hi, Hermesminiatures,

I agree with all you said about Wittmann's demise. It certainly wasn't an aircraft which took him out, it was either Ekins in the firefly of the Northants Yeomanry from the orchard to the northeast or  some un-named gunner in a firefly of the Sherbrooke Fusilers from behind a wall to the west. Sounds like a game of Cluedo! My own theory for the damage to the engine deck is that it could have been the turret coming back down possibly barrel first puncturing through the top before toppling sideways off the tank, as you are probably aware the airial photogragh of the 9th August shows the turret next to the hull, almost touching, it appears that someone moved the hull forward to recover the tracks sometime before Varin took the famous photo. could be tank crews for added armour, as there are pictures of allied tanks with tiger and panther tracks welded on, or simply civilians after the scrap value of the metal.

Regards,

Neil 

In all seriousness, Shouldn't one of us consider approaching the History/Discovery/Military Channel with this (Wittman)?? Isn't there a show called Battlefield Detectives? I recall seeing a show on von Richtofen's (Red Baron) death about a month ago, but I didn't catch the name of the series. Very Good Stuff.

How far has forensics, for that matter technology in general, advanced in the ensuing 25 years since their remains were discovered in 1983??

-John

Hi

Also agree that the debate so far is interesting, have been very tempted to join in, but busy completing a research assignment at the moment.

The only disadvantage, is that such a debate is mixed with the other reason why we are 'here' and that is to build good scale models. Almost seems if a seperate (but linked) thread is needed to maintain the continunity if each, even if only for the ease of following each.

neil_kirby wrote:

Thanks for the discussion, but lets not get started on who knocked him out ;-) While we are on this subject, does anyone know the numbers of the 3 tigers that the 1st company handed over to the 3rd when the former were withdrawn to refit with tiger II's?  Regards, Neil Kirby

Neil- Here's one from Tigers in Combat II by Wolfgang Schnieder. The old numbers are hard to see, but they are there, slightly below and behind the new ones.

-John

Hey John, Aren't the Tigers in Combat I and II books great?  The only thing I wish is that they would have used better quality paper so the photos would be crisper. 

Great reference though. 

bump...and since I'm here....

I'm in the process of waffling on my orginal build....I'm thinking about going with the Tamiya Stug III B but I'm trying to review the kit decals with a known ace.  The Stug Abt.s referenced on the decal sheet are 243rd, 226th, 191st & 192nd.  Also, while doing a random search, the name Rudolf Jaenicke came up-only his vehicle number, 25 was mentioned.  That number happens to be on the decal sheet.

Any thoughts/input from the group or am I going to have to purchase aftermarket markings if I go the Tamiya route?

Thanks

Scott- Yeah, man . I really like Tigers in Combat II and I'll eventually order the first one. I do know that the Tigers in Combat books were available in hardcover printed on glossy stock. I found them on Amazon.com thru one of their used book dealers. I would think that pixs would excellent. Some people collect baseball cards - I collect books on Armor.  I wish I had the $ to buy Hunnicut's "Bible" on the M-4 Sherman. It's been reprinted, but in limited numbers...I wonder why??

To all- Okay, after much delay, I finally compiled all the good and somewhat good pictures of both my trips to the AAF Tank Museum in Danville, VA and uploaded them last night - all 182 of them. Please remember that the museum allows NO flash photos or Tripods (although they didn't say anything about a Monopod - maybe next time).

In order to simplify things, I created an AAF folder with all 182 pictures located @ the bottom of the Reference page and I've also sorted all 182 into their respective categories within the Reference section (Armor, Artillery, Support etc.). So, if you want to browse the whole collection use the AAF Folder, and if you want to "zero in" on a particular vehicle just use the Search feature located in the upper left hand corner of any Gallery page. Should you find any deadlinks, please let me know and I'll do it right the second time .

This is what I've got so far (breathes deeply):

• - 2S3 Self Propelled Howitzer (SPH) (Soviet built, Iraqi Army user)
• - T-54 (Soviet built, Iraqi Army user)
• - STRV 74 (Swedish WWII tank - rare)
• - Panzer IV
• - 37mm FlaK
• - V-100 Commando Armored Car
• - Cletrac High Speed Tractor
• - Continental AV-1790-5B Gas Engine (for the M47 early M48's and M55)
• - Ford GAF Gas Engine (for the M4 Sherman)
• - M2 .50 cal single, and Quad .50 Ground Mount
• - M2 Bradley
• - M4A3E8 Sherman with Dozer (Extremely Rare)
• - M5 Stuart
• - M16 Quad .50 Halftrack
• - M20 Utility Car (based on the M8 Greyhound Armored Car)
• - M37 HMC (Howitzer Motor Carrier)
• - M41 (T139) 90mm Tank Cannon (for the M47/48 Patton)
• - M41 Walker Bulldog
• - M42 Duster
• - M44 SPH
• - M47 Patton
• - M55 SPH
• - M56 Scorpion 90mm Tank Destroyer
• - M60 Patton
• - M62 5 ton Wrecker
• - M75 APC
• - M103 Heavy Tank
• - M110 8" SPH
• - M114 155mm Howitzer (Towed)
• - M163 20mm Vulcan (Ground Mount and Tracked versions)
• - M548 Cargo Carrier
• - M551 Sheridan (in pieces - it's being disassembled for restoration)
• - M1917 Six Ton Tank (US version of the Renault FT-17 - extremely rare)

I have by no means photographed everything in their collection, but I'm working on it!

Hermes- I hope you find something you can use in all of that.

-John

bobbaily wrote:

bump...and since I'm here.... I'm in the process of waffling on my orginal build....I'm thinking about going with the Tamiya Stug III B but I'm trying to review the kit decals with a known ace.  The Stug Abt.s referenced on the decal sheet are 243rd, 226th, 191st & 192nd.  Also, while doing a random search, the name Rudolf Jaenicke came up-only his vehicle number, 25 was mentioned.  That number happens to be on the decal sheet. Any thoughts/input from the group or am I going to have to purchase aftermarket markings if I go the Tamiya route? Thanks

That Tamiya StugIIIB is a nice kit.  Is it safe to assume it's the 1/35 version?  I don't have much reference material on StuG units, but do have a little bit in the StuG III.  If I come across anything useful, I'll post it here for you. 

Man, the past several weeks have been so hectic! 

Here are three Panzer Ace blurbs that I extracted from the book "Images of Kursk - History's Greatest Tank Battle" July 1943 by Nik Cornish.

This is straight out of page 220 of that book:

That the German panzer force was technologically more advanced than that of the Red Army is beyond doubt.  The capacity of the Tiger to absorb punishment, combined with the range of its main gun, provided the men who operated it with the opportunity to achieve great things.  The battle for Kharkov during the early months of 1943 had earned the SS panzer troops an excellent reputation.  Kursk and the subsequent fighting during the Soviet counteroffensives from August to November 1943 confirmed their status as an elite fighting force.  From the ranks of these men there were many who found fame and glory, but there were a few who were elevated to the pedestal of tank ace.  There is no similar section for Russian tank heroes as theirs is a story that remains to be told.

Michael Wittmann
Of all the German tank aces, one stands as first among equals: SS-Untersturmführer (Second-Lieutenant) Michael Wittmann, who commanded a Tiger troop of the Leibstandarte during Operation Citadel.  On the first day of Citadel Wittmann's Tiger destroyed eight Soviet tanks.  It was Wittmann's troop that shattered the attack of the 181st Tank Brigade at Prokhorovka on 12 July, a remarkable achievement.  During the Kursk battles Wittmann and his crew claimed to have destroyed 30 tanks and 28 antitank guns.  Before his death in Normandy on 8 August 1944, Wittmann had accounted for 138 tanks and 132 antitank guns, almost 20 percent of which were gained during Operation Citadel.

Manfred von Ribbentrop
SS-Obersturmführer (Lieutenant) Manfred von Ribbentrop, son of Hitler's Foreign Minister, fought in the Leibstandarte's panzer regiment at Prokhorovka.  On 12 July Ribbentrop's tanks were attacked by a large group of T-34s.  As the range reduced to less than 175m (200yd) the effectiveness of the German guns was neutralized.  The fighting was vicious and carried out at close quarters.  The claim of Ribbentrop and his crew, for that day alone, was 14 Soviet tanks.

Franz Staudegger
It is to SS-Unterscharführer (Seargeant) Franz Staudegger that the most remarkable performance in the Kursk salient must be credited.

On 8 July Staudegger's Tiger was under repair at Teterevino.  A report arrived that some 50-60 Soviet tanks were aproaching.  Staudegger and his men hurried the repairs and set off to meet the Russians.  During the course of the morning this lone Tiger fought for two hours, destroying 17 enemy tanks.  The Soviets withdrew to regroup.  Staudegger followed and, catching the Russians bunched in a gully, proceeded to destroy a further five T-34s.  With his ammunition gone Staudegger withdrew.  On 10 July Staudegger became the first Waffen-SS Tiger commander to be awarded the Knight's Cross.

Hi all

Without stirring up the hornets nest, I have question about #231 at Villiers-Bocage.

Who was the tank assigined to/who commanded it?

Thx

osjohnm wrote:

Hi all Without stirring up the hornets nest, I have question about #231 at Villiers-Bocage. Who was the tank assigined to/who commanded it? Thx

I'll see what I can dig up, although Hermisminitures will probably beat me to it. 

Heinz Belbe was the commander of 231, on paper at least. It is probable that Kurt Sowa was also using 231 at VB, since a bystander said "...Wittmann jumped into Sowa's tank...", but certainly didn't use Sowa's paper mount 222, since it was photographed towing 231 just a few hours after the battle.

So 231 had at least three different commanders, although the official one was Heinz Belbe.

espins1 - I knew that already - didn't just go find it to beat you to it

Thanks for the info Hermes.

3 questions then:

Based on the bystanders comments about Wittman climbing into 231, then theoretically 231 can be used in this group build as a tank Wittman utilised? All be it for a very short period.

Last question, since our focus is on the aces themselves and the correct version/turret number etc how important is the replication of the actual vehicle? Are we going to the depth that if parts were missing on the real thing then must be omitted on the build?

Lastly, the dreaded Z word, Zimmerit. If I build a tank where the real thing has the zimm and I don't add zimm to the build, will I end up in front of the firing squad?

I'd say go for it - when I built a Wittmann Tiger, I modeled 231.

The small differences should be maintained to the comfortable extent of your skill, so as long as you have fun and get the turret numbers and camouflage right, dont worry about it.

If we shoot you, let's shoot the Dragon designers while we're at it. Their box art on the Tiger I late shows Wittmann's vehicle modeled without Zimmerit. Although I'd recommend it, you don't have to use it if you don't want to make it/spend $30 for Atak or Cavalier zim. 

Hi All,

On the subject of the Zim. coating; the idea of applying such with an applicator/screwdriver seems a little difficult, yet are there any transkits which offer a damaged Zim. version?

Also, did the Tiger I; late version have any primer applied underneath the factory applied Zim. and/or the dark yellow coat?

espins1 wrote:

Hey John, Aren't the Tigers in Combat I and II books great?  The only thing I wish is that they would have used better quality paper so the photos would be crisper.  Great reference though.

the doog wrote:

espins1 wrote: Hey John, Aren't the Tigers in Combat I and II books great?  The only thing I wish is that they would have used better quality paper so the photos would be crisper.  Great reference though.  Hey espins1, I've been following your discussions on Wittman here and came across your comment--just wanted to let ya know that the first run hardcover "Tigers In Combat I and II" are all printed on high gloss, superb-quality paper; I have them both. The softcover copies are way inferior, I agree; it pays to pay for the hardcover editions!

Ya, if I had known the difference I would have tried to get my hands on the hardback edition.  Still great books though.