Cold War GroupBuild 2008 (1/3/08 to 1/3/09).

Chris, here are a few thoughts from a Cold War vet.

1. Some folks (including me) count the end of the Cold War as occurring in 1991. The August coup, the end of nuclear bomber alert and a Bush speech on Christmas declaring the official end of the war (which he made after a phone conversation on the subject with Boris Yeltsin) all occurred on that date. As dramatic as the fall of the Berlin Wall was, to me it wasn't over yet.

2. Also, I can give you a more definite start date. Some historians recognize 1947 as the start of the war because the Truman Doctrine was put in place to limit any further expansion of Communism. Others mark the 1948 Berlin blockade and the subsequent airlift as the opening of the war.

3. I'd say that a Cold War build without allies might be unnecessarily limited, but one with allies is problematic. For example, during a large part of the Cold War India's governments were very left-leaning and they bought lots of Soviet equipment, but were they really a Soviet ally? How abpout Switzerland, which was neutral, but probably would have fought a Soviet invasion of Western Europe? Do we include China?

I propose that we have three decisions to make, with multiple options available under some of them:

Decision 1: Does Tomnsy make the call, or do we vote?

Decision 2: What's the beginning point? 1947 (Truman Doctrine), 1948 (Berlin Crisis), 1949 (NATO is founded),  1950 (Korean War begins) or our current choice, 1955 (WArsaw Pact founded)? 

Decision 3: What's the end date? 1989 (The wall falls) or 1991 (Soviets join the anti-Saddam coalition/Nuclear alert ends/Soviet Union falls)?

Decision 4: What nations?

We could keep it to the U.S. and Soviet Union.

We could only include NATO and Warsaw Pact members. This would include France, which was a founding member of NATO at first and always was willing to fight alongside NATO in the event of an invasion, even after they left NATO.

We could include those countries and the countries in the "Pacific Theater" of the Cold War: Japan, the PRC, Taiwan, The Koreas, The Vietnams, Australia and New Zealand, etc.

We could do the above, but not include stuff involved in the region's shooting wars. 

We could include NATO & Warsaw Pact, all treaty allies similar to NATO and the Warsaw Pact (such as the Baghdad Pact and SEATO), Pacific "cold" allies, and all proxy war participants, including the Arab countries and Israel.

We could do the above, but consider the Israeli-Arab conflict a separate theater.

We could allow modeling of any equipment made by a Cold War nation even if it was used by a country that was not a Cold War ally. For example, Sweden and Switzerland were technically neutral, but used some NATO-origin equipment, while Finland was bound by a friendship treaty with the Soviets and flew MiGs but also had free market democracy and flew the Magister, Vampire, Bell 206 and Alouette.

Yeah, I know...could be pretty confusing!

Townsy11 wrote:

bondoman wrote:  Townsy11 wrote: Err... on second thought Telsono I'm not sure if the Centurion would qualify seeing as it wasn't made by the U.S.A. or the U.S.S.R. I'm not sure, what does everyone else think? Chris, It seems like that would work. You were looking for the US/USSR and their allies, which I would take to mean in the Cold War sense. So you would include a NATO Centurion or a CF-104, but maybe not an Isherman or any Mirages?(No slam against France but not part of NATO). True, It is a part of NATO and if the Cold war were to have happened NATO would have been majorly involved... still not sure

Indeed. Historically speaking, the Cold War is often defined as "the period of conflict, tension and competition between the United States and the Soviet Union and their respective allies from the mid-1940s until the early 1990s". A war between the 2 superpowers would have been a world war involving most countries in the world: it would have been extremely difficult, if not impossible, to stay neutral under those conditions. Even Switzerland - a neutral country by tradition - decided to fight on NATO's side should such a war erupt.

Fact is that during the Cold War, the 2 superpowers fought each other indirectly by waging "proxy wars", usually involving their allies. The Korean War, Vietnam War and the Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan are considered, for instance, as proxy wars. During the Korean War, the US, aided by a vast coalition of European and other countries, fought the North Koreans and eventually the Chinese, but not the Soviet Union. Anyway, historically speaking, Veterans of the Cold War would thus include "all those who have served both in actual conflicts and on inactive confrontation lines since 1945", such as "Soviet servicemen who served in Afghanistan and Korea, British servicemen from a number of conflicts and in West Germany, Chinese personnel in Korea and Vietnam, French personnel from Algeria, Vietnam, Lebanon and elsewhere, and U.S. personnel in Vietnam, Korea, Germany and elsewhere, along with all the other servicemen and women who served from many other countries in those conflicts and along the confrontation lines in Germany and elsewhere".

Of course, this would imply that anything (more or lesss) built between 1947 and 1989 would qualify for this GB; maybe you'd like to limit the GB to only the military equipment of the 2 superpowers. But if not, I'd be happy to build another kit, namely Heller's 1/400 Tourville, a French ASW destroyer that would have actively combed the sea in seach of Russian subs in the event of a world war.

What do you guys think about it? 

Chris 

squeakie wrote:

dostacos wrote: on a more serious note, would any of these fit your bill M 24 Chaffee M 26 Pershing M 41 Walker Bull Dog  M 48 Patton M 60  Patton   you could use an M-41, M-47, M-48, M-60. As well as an M-56 & M-50 Ontos. Most varients of the M-113 series too. Also there are several U.S. SPG's that would fall in this catagory. If you find a M-56 please don't tell as my heart will be broken faster than a speeding bullet!! gary

I will be going with a M 48 or 60 unless I find a nice Israeli version of the same

dostacos wrote:

on a more serious note, would any of these fit your bill M 24 Chaffee M 26 Pershing M 41 Walker Bull Dog  M 48 Patton M 60  Patton

you could use an M-41, M-47, M-48, M-60. As well as an M-56 & M-50 Ontos. Most varients of the M-113 series too. Also there are several U.S. SPG's that would fall in this catagory. If you find a M-56 please don't tell as my heart will be broken faster than a speeding bullet!!

gary

put me down for something. The fields wide open on this, and may do the M-48 I've been gathering parts for. Another one that's always got my fancey is an F105 Wild Weasel, or an F4 wild weasel. Let me think on a selection, but for now count me in.

gary      

bondoman wrote:

Townsy11 wrote: Err... on second thought Telsono I'm not sure if the Centurion would qualify seeing as it wasn't made by the U.S.A. or the U.S.S.R. I'm not sure, what does everyone else think? Chris, It seems like that would work. You were looking for the US/USSR and their allies, which I would take to mean in the Cold War sense. So you would include a NATO Centurion or a CF-104, but maybe not an Isherman or any Mirages?(No slam against France but not part of NATO).

True, It is a part of NATO and if the Cold war were to have happened NATO would have been majorly involved... still not sure

Townsy11 wrote:

Err... on second thought Telsono I'm not sure if the Centurion would qualify seeing as it wasn't made by the U.S.A. or the U.S.S.R. I'm not sure, what does everyone else think? Chris,

I'll be building the following ships:

USS Oriskany 1/700, converted Trumpeter

USS Orleck 

USS Laffey, both 1/700 converted Skywave, both barely started.

USS Jenkins converted 1/700 Tamiya Fletcher

And last, but most certainly not least, USS America or John F Kennedy from the Italeri 1/720 America kit.

I need motivation to get these going.

Err... on second thought Telsono I'm not sure if the Centurion would qualify seeing as it wasn't made by the U.S.A. or the U.S.S.R.

I'm not sure, what does everyone else think?

Chris,

I've created a brief list of some of the vehicles that would qualify for this GB:

U.S.S.R.:

T-80 series

T-72 series

T-64 series

T-62 series

T-54/55 series

PT-76 series

MT-LB series

BMP-2 series

BMP-1 series

BMD-1 series

BMD-2 series

BRDM-1 series

BRDM-2 series

BTR-80 series

BTR-70 series

BTR-60 series

U.S.A.:

M1, IPM1 Abrams

M60 series

M48 series

M47 series

M41 series

Stingray and Stingray II LT's

M2 and M2A1 series

M113, M113A1 and M113A2 series

M2 Bradley

LVTP7 AAAV series

HMMWV series

M151 MUTT series

LAV-300 series

Ranger series

LAV-100, LAV-200, LAV-150 series

(my list doesn't include SPG's and artillery but, they can join.)

I'm not so sure about letting in WW2 vintage vehicles (i.e. Sherman) because they were not produced and used by either the USA or the USSR during the cold war (as far as I know).

SMJ: So yes, a T-55A would qualify.

Dostacos: They would all qualify except the M24 and M26.

Jthurston: Great, I'll put you on the list.

Zokissima: Great, I'll put you on the list.

Cdclukey: Yes I was just wondering the scale of your build, I'll change it now.

Imperator-Rex: Great, I'll put you on the list.

Telsono: I guess since your centurion has the 105 it will qualify. I'll put you on the list.

Chris,

bondoman,

Good to see you're jumping in on this one.  Hey, you going to Hobby Expo in Petaluma this Saturday?

I'll jump in with the AFV Club 1/35 Centurion 105mm NATO version. Its in my stash and I should reduce that a little.

Mike T.

Jerry your post here got me to thinking again about the thread in Odds and Ends about 1968, which brought to mind Prague.

I wouldn't know a T-54 from a T-55 or probably for that matter a T-62, but these images stick in my head, classic Cold War.

Hello everybody,

 you can put me in the group for a nice (and rare) Revell 1/400 USS Dallas sub!

Best regards,

Chris 

SMJmodeler wrote:

dostacos, Thanks for the info..I was wondering if the "55" was based on the year, it looks like it would just barely qualify for this GB.  Let me get back to you tonight to confrim this idea but it's soundin' pretty good!!!

I couldn't imagine the T55 not qualifying for this one (not my call, but throwing my out there and seeing what you guys think). While it's true that the T55 was designed (and I believe first fielded) in 1955 or thereabouts, either right at the beginning of or just before the Cold War, it was actually used by the USSR and many other Communist Bloc nations throughout much of the cold war. It's probably the world's most numerous main battle tank, having operated during most of the Cold War in the colors of something like 150 coutries. I think it's still in service in some parts of the world (old T55 hulks are laying all over Iraq, for instance).

Anyway, right now I'm leaning toward a Tamiya T62 with plenty of AM stuff.

dostacos,

Thanks for the info..I was wondering if the "55" was based on the year, it looks like it would just barely qualify for this GB.  Let me get back to you tonight to confrim this idea but it's soundin' pretty good!!!

Townsy, you can put me down for the GB, 1/35 kit TBD.

Probably something Russian and clunky-looking. Maybe a T62 if I can find one.

Thanks!

~Jerry

SMJmodeler wrote:

Can anyone tell me if a T-55A would qualify for the time period of this GB?

how about you do a T-55A and I will do an M 60 { the M 60 was developed in part because of the T 55 

on a more serious note, would any of these fit your bill

M 24 Chaffee

M 26 Pershing

M 41 Walker Bull Dog 

M 48 Patton

M 60  Patton

Maybe?  I'll see...

Jesse

Can anyone tell me if a T-55A would qualify for the time period of this GB?