DML Bison II Complete 04-28-12

Karl, getting closer but still some substantial work to do on this one on the exterior assembly, tools, tracks, etc.

Tony, just for you my friend...a rare back-to-back update on the build. I think you're right about the camel scenario!

More progress to report. I completed the detailing on the sIG33 using MM non-buffing Metalizer Gunmetal and non-buffing Metalizer Steel to detail the breech. I opted for the elevated version of the artillery sight which DML provides as clear parts, making it trickier to paint and detail them. I also used the Metalizer Steel for the recoil rails and dry brushed Burnt Umber over them to create a bare metal look. Last but not least I added the kit-supplied PE range/calculation boards.

I decided to treat the gun like a mini-kit for weathering and applied a Future coat by airbrush and let that dry and cure overnight. I applied an overall thinned wash of Raw Umber to the gun and followed that with a pin wash of Burnt Umber to bring out all the different bolt and raised detail. Excess wash was cleaned up using clean thinner and then the gun dull coated with an application of Testors MM Lusterless Flat in the spray can. 

With the gun details finished, it was time to install it into position. The rear compartment portion has a tighter fit now with the commander's seat fitted so I had to kind of fit the two of them into place simultaneously for the seat to clear the clamps holding the gun equilibrator housings. I used liquid glue around the perimeter of the rear compartment and finger pressure to secure it in place. I didn't glue down the front of the gun splinter shields just yet.

As you can see from the pic below, the fighting compartment is a very tight/cramped space and all of the DML-supplied components have to be installed carefully to play nice with each other in the final result.

That left the side panels as the remaining element for the fighting compartment assembly. I added the left side first since it was supported by the angled braces and then the right side followed. By not gluing down the splinter shields until after the side compartments were fitted, I had some wiggle room to be able to slide the panels into position and make sure they were lined up correctly and at the right angle with the fenders. Then the front splinter shields were secured in place to complete the day's activities.

That's right blame it on the old guy

From what i've read they would have been better off to pull the gun around with a pair of camels.

Tony lee

Oh I almost forgot: The interior is cherry Bill

Biil, that's looking good--looks like you're ready to button it up and drive it into the home stretch?

It's all Tony's fault Mike! The cramped interior is packed to the gills...I did a test fit with all the seats and stuff installed and the crew would've barely had room to stand in to operate the gun. Very tight quarters all around for sure.

OK....now I am totally confused....Bill is posting on Wed....sneaking in Sun.....this must be either the new stealth Bill or with this interior, Bill is changing jobs to a furniture salesman 

Love all the little details.....my kind of build

Rounds Complete!!

Made some progress in terms of moving in a lot of the furniture that I'd worked on previously. I used 0.5mm solder to wire up the transformer, battery, and radio to each other. The wire was painted with MM enamel Gunmetal and secured in place with CA gel in the holes I'd pre-drilled previously.

I also installed the gunner's and radio operator's seats. The gunner's seat is a little tough to get into position as there's not a lot of room to work with. This is a case where angled tweezers are your friend for sure. The radio operator's seat has to be positioned just so to avoid a problem with the rear compartment section, so it's a good idea to dry fit the rear compartment and then glue the seat in position.

The other side of the compartment also received the loader's seat and the MP40 ammo pouches. I also applied a pin wash of Burnt Umber to the raised detail (and the other compartment sections as well) and then lightly dry brushed the RAL 8000 base coat to highlight and blend back in to the finish a bit.

The other compartment sections received detail attention as well. The charge casing rack was detailed with MM non-buffing Metalizer Brass and the commander's seat installed. The kit-supplied PE holders for the gas mask containers were used to mount the containers to the compartment side wall and the fire extinguisher detailed. Last but not least, I added the antenna wire to the mast elevation mechanism and will connect it up to the radio when the compartment is fully assembled.

Next up is detailing the gun and then the compartment will get assembled.

ok, as you asked for ...

10 rounds at the Bison SPG (partly covered and laying on the floor under the gun / limber) 7 in wooden made storage area as shown on the hand-crafted photo shown by Tony lee

2 x 25 rounds / each in 1ton half-tracked vehicles / for each Bison - SPG

50 rounds on trucks for each platoon

During the battle of El Alamein the whole ammunition was fired, partly at shortest range, including the corp's reserve (rest 10 rounds !) ... even when the first 2 British tanks had broken through the lines and were at least "stopped" by 88mm Flak hits.

redleg12

...we would carry close to 2,000 rounds. This is based on a expected firing rate of 250 rounds per tube per day in combat.

Bill and Manny - Yes, the SP artillery would normally have an ammo vehicle with it or at a minimum, tow a trailer with some ammunition (similar to the M8 or M7) For a big gun, very few rounds are carried on the gun chassis. Also the crew would be large enough that they would be split between the weapon and the ammo carrier.

Artillery is firepower and that means ammunition. A given example...the basic ammunition combat load for a 105mm firing battery (6 guns) we would carry close to 2,000 rounds. This is based on a expected firing rate of 250 rounds per tube per day in combat. The largest part of artillery is logistics. To carry that much ammunition we had each howitzer section 2 1/2 ton truck loaded as much as possible, just leaving space for the crew. Plus we had an ammunition section with 3 long bed 5 ton trucks and 2 ammunition trailers all loaded to the top of the bows.

Logistics.....and I don't mean UPS!!

Sooooo....in your case there had to be some support vehicles

Rounds Complete!!

wbill76

Very true Manny. No way any of the SPGs could carry sufficient ammo without a "tail" of logistics support to go with them. I think the intriguing thing about the Bison II is that all the written sources on it say something to the effect that 7-10 rounds were carried on the vehicle itself...but it's unclear as to exactly where. Even the space challenged Bison 1 managed to find space on the fenders to carry 3 ready rounds...not exactly a rolling arsenal but better than nothing!  It's not hard to see why the Bison II design didn't get carried forward for a lot of reasons.  

Very true Manny. No way any of the SPGs could carry sufficient ammo without a "tail" of logistics support to go with them. I think the intriguing thing about the Bison II is that all the written sources on it say something to the effect that 7-10 rounds were carried on the vehicle itself...but it's unclear as to exactly where. Even the space challenged Bison 1 managed to find space on the fenders to carry 3 ready rounds...not exactly a rolling arsenal but better than nothing!  It's not hard to see why the Bison II design didn't get carried forward for a lot of reasons.  

All self-propelled artillery carried only a small amount of ammo...that why you see some chassis (particularly with the Germans) converted into just ammo carriers...Oftentimes I feel we forget things like this when we start woondering things like, "Where'd they keep all the shells?"  Truth is, they didn't carry that many ion this vehicle or any other SPG's...maybe enough "ready rounds" for a few minutes worth of firing...

Artillery shells and a/c bombs were the 2nd most cumbersome expendable item that had to be transported on the Eastern front, after petrol (the 3rd was my phonograph record and wine collection) ...same with operations in the Med and N Africa...keep in mind that most artillery fired indirectly and were located further back in the rear where the guns were supplied with ammo carried in trucks, railcars or sometimes other armored vehicles...

Hi,

no chance for DML, because this old man had sent those informations at September 4th, 1988 ! 

I also cannot imagine on which way the publishers of Achtung PanzerNo. 7 got those informations. may be via Mr. Frank, formerly President of airmodel / Frank-Modellbau in early 90th of last century.

However I' ve sent those Informations (translated !) to DML also. If there will be a modification ... don't know.

We also tried here in Germany to modify a DML kit in that manner, unfortunately no chance. It seems to be a secret more of WWII.

Additionally Mr. Duske ( publisher of "Nuts and Bolts" ) got my informations. However he also hadn't got or found any further details and Informations concerning that SPG.

I suppose that there are examination reports of the British who had captured some vehicles in Egypt (El Alamein) stored in any British archives. Who will find them and when ? That's the only  posibility to find  the solution... which we all need to have.

Melchior,

Very true...every day that passes results in original sources like that becoming scarcer. Memories fade with time and oral history is lost if not passed down to the next generation. Not knowing the provenance of the diagram posted of course has an influence on evaluating its validity and my related comments. This is a problem that the model manufacturers face all the time in dealing with subjects where there aren't any surviving vehicles, information is sketchy, and no official plans or diagrams are available for study. Had the veteran been alive and available to speak to DML designers and reseachers I'm sure the outcome would have been different. It makes me wonder if that type of source might not have been what influenced the Achtung Panzer authors in their choice of suggested ammo load-out perhaps? Hard to say for sure.

@ Tony Lee ... do you need a second message for Bison II to restore your archives ?

@wbill76 ... never mind this storage shown here by Tony was the hand-made drawing of a sergeant-rank who served in field and with this AFV in WW II ! So, who might know it better ? However, we would never be able to ask him again, he's dead since years ago. Too much knowlegde is gone.

Thanks guys. When I showed the photo to my wife she said it looked like they were having a garage sale!

redleg12

Ahhh....sneaking in a late Sun update!!! Love the seat....nice work on the details

Rounds Complete!!

That's just what I was going to say Mike, Nice detail work Bill

Tony lee

Ahhh....sneaking in a late Sun update!!! Love the seat....nice work on the details

Rounds Complete!!

The devil's always in the details and the cramped interior of this little gun buggy is no different.

I started in by weathering the floor of the fighting compartment. The Bison IIs were prototype vehicles that weren't originally meant for N. Africa so I'm running with the scenario that they would've been originally painted Panzer Gray before receiving their Tropen paint prior to shipment across the Med. To that end, I added some scuffing/wear to the floor using a round 0 sable brush and stippling first Panzer Schwarzgrau and then Burnt Umber in random patterns until I had the wear to the level desired. I blended the stippling back into the original paint work by lightly dry brushing the RAL 8000 base coat used earlier. Free space is at a premium in the fighting compartment so I assumed that any open spot like the top of the large box, the drive shaft cover, the open space beside the box, etc. would be used to move stuff around and wear in the process.

Also spent a good bit of time on the miscellaneous details like the crew seats, the radio gear, and the ammo pouches for the MP40s.

Still more to come in this department!

Mike, that makes perfect sense...there's zero room for any recoil beyond the extent of the tray in that compartment for sure!

Eric, thanks for the comments. It's a tight space to work in as a builder/finisher as well, have to put thought into every step before committing to it...so now it will be a struggle of mms for a bit before returning to the exterior stuff.

Wow, not much room to move around in there. Must have been hectic.

Good to see her coming along.

Bill - the assembly painting method is one I usaually follow, especially with artillery as it becomes difficult to get to some areas once assembeled.

As for the elevation question, many times a weapon designed as a towed weapon which was adapted for a self propelled operation could not reach the maximum quadrent (elevation) for a number of reasons. Most times it had to do with the recoil length which in WWII weapons was a fixed length. The variable recoil system was not invented until after the war. With a fixed recoil on a howitzer, most had to dig a pit called a high angle pit, near the breech. This would give space for the recoil when firing at high angles. Since the floor of the SP carriage could not have a hole!!! Many times the elevation was limited to the max elevation where the breech would not hit the floor.

Good crews would counter this problem by emplacing the weapon on a slight rise. This would then add elevation to the system and allow for futher range or high angle fire with the limited system. This is why many times you see SP guns set up on a rise.

With the advent of the variable recoil system, the recoil length varies depending on elevation and thus keeps the breech from hitting the ground or in the case of an SP wapon, the floor plate.

Keep up the good work....looking gooooood

Rounds Complete!!

Karl, I don't think it's an error either. However on the standard sIG33 it was capable of a much higher angle of elevation than what is possible with the Bison II mount. I was only commenting on the fact that it changes what areas of the gun are accessible for painting after the shields are attached vs. before.

Tread, thanks my friend! And I am indeed looking forward to the interior...lots to do in that cramped space, so will be busy with it for a while for sure.

'Now I get to work on all the little interior details and weathering'.... Gee Bill, don't say it like ya wern't looking forward to it !......looking great my friend

tread

Coming right along, Bill!

I would think that that elevation thing would have been intrinsic to the real vehicle. It would seem hard to believe that they engineered the kit THAT far off?!

Managed to get the interior base painting done. I masked off the contact surfaces on the fender and hull front edges that are critical to getting all the compartment panels to join properly to avoid having to scrape paint later on. I applied a primer coat of MM enamel Italian Dark Brown by air brush and let that air dry.

This was followed by an airbrushed coat of MM enamel Afrika Grunbraun (Testors version of RAL 8000). Because of the tight spaces on the hull front once the gun is installed, I also painted some of the exterior areas while it's still easy to get to them without becoming a contortionist.

I also discovered during the painting process that the splinter shields limit the elevation on the sIG33...something I hadn't fully anticipated. This is the maximum elevation that the gun can be posed at before the splinter shield interferes with the guard on the recoil tray (part B19). I'm not sure if this is a limitation that was also on the actual vehicle but it's something for the builder to be aware of. I intend to pose the gun in a flat elevation in the final analysis so it's not a big deal to me in the long-run, but will make life a little more interesting in terms of painting the camo scheme to the vehicle exterior later on.

Now I get to work on all the little interior details and weathering.

AMEN and Amen Brother

Tony lee

That's the same ammo loadout arrangement that the Achtung Panzer #7 arrangement suggests was used. Given the way the compartmnet is arranged, I find it virtually impossible for that to be a workable storage for 2 reasons. 1) there's no practical way for the crew to access those areas even though there is space there conceivably and 2) the arrangement of the fuel tanks and engine gear, drive shafts, etc. present a severe limitation on the right side of the area in question.

DML's arrangement instead has 7 rounds stored in the large box on top of the engine deck and I've used accurate resin 1/35 scale 15cm sIG 33 rounds with it and it does work...leaving the other 2-3 rounds presumably stored on the floor under the gun on a wicker mat based on the info that Tony dug up earlier in his build on where the remaining rounds might be kept.

The simple truth though is that we will probably never really know for certain one way or the other...the amount of hard evidence available for this particular vehicle leaves gaps for interpretation that may never be completely filled.  

The other drawing is on the H/D in my crashed computer Lothar.

Tony lee