Sturmgeschutz Sdkfz. 167 Dio *finished*

thanks for all the suggestions!

Ive started fabricating the shields out of thin plasticard I have and have made good progress on track assembly. I should have update pics soon!

That's a good point Karl. Do you normally do that? I'd think part of it would be lost relating to proximity. Looking at a AFV at 20 yards there are a lot of things you'd miss. I imagine this is one of those lines between artistry and realism that crop up from time to time, like nobody making that godawful ugly camo scheme from Panzer colors (take your pick). I wish I could go back to my army days for one last trip to the motor pool to have a look-see. I was much more interested in the relics on Kelly Hill than I was our 981. It seems to me the guides were pretty pourous but the insides of the tracks not nearly so much.

On that subject, does anyone make that putrid interior green the army uses? I've got an Academy 981 I have to do sometime.

Joe, yeah, I do do that. I guess I'm a stickler for details! Honestly, I think that tracks are where a lot of modelers fall flat in their thoroughness and attention. Too many guys lump on the pigments or rust the tracks to death, not realizing that an operational tank has more steel showing than rust.

That green is made by several companies. I think Tamiya has a color close to it called "Sky"? But I know that someone else makes "Interior Green". If not, just mix it up yourself. It's not hard; I mix many of my own colors.

CallSignOWL

does this look like teh correct kind of damage these shields would get? Ive only done two panels as a test, and kinda like the way they turned out. Should every panel be beat up a bit?

and since we are on the subject a coupla questions Owl would probably get around to asking....

What color should the inside of the schurzen be?

Would there be  camo underneath the schurzen? 

Looking good so far Owl!

Thanks for all the suggestions and tips! Im moving right along with the Sturm

I added some scratch built springs

And have completed the tracks

(one of the wheels got glued to the track, oops)

I also fabricated new shield panels

much thinner than the kit pieces

NEXT IS PAINT!!

oh, yeah. I also used the kit pieces for my own link cable because I dindt like the kit supplied one

CallSignOWL

Thanks for all the suggestions and tips! Im moving right along with the Sturm

I added some scratch built springs

And have completed the tracks

(one of the wheels got glued to the track, oops)

I also fabricated new shield panels

much thinner than the kit pieces

NEXT IS PAINT!!

Don't forget to add the bolt heads to the shurzen since the hangers would have been bolted on.

bolt heads...!

Very nice work fabricating those schurzen plates and hangers! I wouldn't worry too much about the bolt heads...they are tiny in-scale and  recessed to boot...so once you paint and weather they would be virtually invisible.

wbill76

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wbill76

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recessed?! Gah! I just got done gluing on itty bitty circles on them! arg

That looks great, Owl. Looks like you got the track method down perfectly! The tape, the sag, all of it--I even think I see those return rollers done up right?

Good one on the springs, and the new schurzen look great.

Oh yeah, and that cable is rockin'!

Now, with paint---I admit this is a personal peeve of mine, but it really makes a difference; don't shoot your Dark Yellow straight out of the bottle. Lighten it by at LEAST 50%. It's too dark out of the bottle--it's much more realistic to lighten it up--especially as you start to add washes. which will only darken your base coat.

thanks doog! Means a lot coming from you! :)

I'm not going to be able to use my airbrush in this one, though. Im not to sure abut air compressors being allowed in dorm-rooms, you see. So it will be a hand-brushed affair using the little Testors enamel jars, and mixes there-of.

Great detail work Owl!  Good call on the tow cables....molded plastic just doesn't cut it in my book!  I see you used Karl's track method perfectly, even down to the tissue paper sag!!  Fender springs, unditching logs....you're really going to town with this Stug!

Karl would the Schurzen panels  be a unlightend shade (basically out of the warehouse) of the basecoat being replacement panels?

 And would it be possible to model the Stug IV with weathered panels and unweathered panels? That is something I haven't really seen done before here but might be really plausible due to the frequent replacement of Schurzen panels.

the doog

That looks great, Owl. Looks like you got the track method down perfectly! The tape, the sag, all of it--I even think I see those return rollers done up right?

Good one on the springs, and the new schurzen look great.

Oh yeah, and that cable is rockin'!

Now, with paint---I admit this is a personal peeve of mine, but it really makes a difference; don't shoot your Dark Yellow straight out of the bottle. Lighten it by at LEAST 50%. It's too dark out of the bottle--it's much more realistic to lighten it up--especially as you start to add washes. which will only darken your base coat.

the doog

iraqiwildman

Also if your going to use the side skirts, you might want just install the tracks before painting, since the majority of them will be hidden behind the skirts. On my last two soviet tanks, I have installed the tracks before painting, paint them black when pre-shading, tape off most of the tracks and then paint the road wheels. I saved a lot of time painting and weathering parts of the track that will never been seen.

Just something to consider---when you do that, you can't really properly weather the guide horns on the tracks, nor can you really do the path where the wheels themselves weather and shine up the track face inside. The guide horns should be silvered from wear, and the path where the wheels actually contact the inside of the track should be a metallic gray,

Look at how the inside of this Leopard 2 track is worn by the rubber wheels. This is something that a lot of modelers miss.

Owl, fine work on all the scratched schurzen and tow cables.

The purpose of skirting (schurzen) was to cope with low-velocity shaped-charge weapons.  

So, the plates needed to be thick enough to set off the fuses on those weapons, but not so heavy as to bog the AFV down with additional weight.

So, the edges & bottoms of the skirts probably caught on all sorts of things.  As a guess, the Battalion or Regimental Trains probably did not have "spares" of the skirts in stock.  However, company/battalion level maintenance units would be able to weld/bolt the hanger brackets on whatever sheet steel was handy.  Which would get the paint available at that depot.

The paint availability and the crew sensitivity to hostile forces probably defined how good and complete a paint job that represented in the field.  I cannot recall if the Soviets had that sort of thing (my brain wants to remember RPG-4 being '46).  Now, the US forces would have 2.3" bazooka in later years; the Brits had the PIAT right through the war.  Either of those would leave a 1-2 cm hole in th eskirt, and a serious char mark behind that.

So, probably they ought to look much like a beat-up car fender, rather than anything shot-up  Although a near-miss would leave some scars--but modeling those in context could be tough.

And, it's a good model so far, and the replaced skirts are very light like they ought be.

That's my 2¢; you'll need another $4 for a happy meal.

Winetanker

 

What color should the inside of the schurzen be?

Would there be  camo underneath the schurzen? 

The photos that do show the inside of Schurzen seem to show a light colour, so i would go for yellow. This is certainly the case on museum examples. And no, there wouldn't be any camo on there.

Great work OWL, you have really been biten by the armour bug.

Nice work Owl, she's looking good. Nice work on the thinner schurzen. I like the retaining brackets for the spare track on the glacis - good attention to details.

thanks guys!  :)

CapnMac82

The purpose of skirting (schurzen) was to cope with low-velocity shaped-charge weapons.  

Eric, i was reading that today, i think it was on Panzer world. Sort of make sense given that the Soviets, as far as i know, didn't have bazooka's. But i am not sure if they had shaped charges or not.

Bish, I'm not aware that they did. They may have received bazookas thru the lend-lease, but I can't recall any photos of them. I have seen them use captured panzer-schrecks.

Nice StuG Owl!! I really like all the extra work you are putting into it!

Russians didn't use hollow-round or shaped charge at the time Schurzen were introduced. AT rifles were wide-spread and deadly at short ranges...particularly against the thinner armor of lower hulls and sides  on the different vehicles...hence the reason for turret schurzen on Pz III and IV but not on Panthers for example even though Panthers got hull schurzen. 5mm plates were sufficient to cause AT rifle rounds to 'tumble' after penetration and prevent entering the main hull or turret. Plates were frequently replaced and reference photos exist of vehicles sporting plates with different camo patterns...clearly a case of battlefield scavenging expediency.

Huh...so AT rifles weren't totally useless; as I had thought...

The myth of the schurzen's purpose has been around a long time but through the scholarly work of Tom Laemlin, he traced where that theory first arose.  It was a false attribution by a US General officer -- not corroborated by German documents or post war tests or Germans themselves.  Like Tigerman said, they were used to defeat AT rifle bullets.  Besides the Pz III and Pz IV shurzen, look at where they were mounted on other vehicles -- the area between the Panther's tracks and its side upper armor, the gap on the Hetzers, the gap on the Tiger IIs.  All of those areas were susceptible to AT Rifle penetration -- thus the designers' mounting skirting to protect them.

Also, think when they were introduced and where: 1943 Eastern Front

One thing I'd say Owl is to be careful not to overdo the sag in your tracks, which I think a lot of guys do. There's not a lot that's more important to a crew in the field than maintaining their track tension and other maintenance. The reason for that is too much slack or a bad track bearing will cause the vehicle to throw the track and a tank without a track is pretty much just a gun emplacement. Also, too much slack wears out the bearings and that takes you back to the same issue of a thrown track. It doesn't really matter if your track breaks or if it's thrown off the sprocket, you still have to put it back on. I know it wasn't much fun replacing a link or dropping a complete track on concrete in our motor pool where we had the rest of the platoon to help with it. I certainly wouldn't want to do it in 30 degrees and a foot of mud with only 4 men and I'm sure nobody else would either.

From the horse's mouth, here's a transcript of an interview I conducted several years ago w/Wolfgang Kloth, a tank commander who served in Pz IIIs, IVs and StuG IIIs.  He discusses the AT rifles, thrown tracks and all sorts of other good stuff

www.amps-armor.org/.../bbsDetail.aspx

T26E4

From the horse's mouth, here's a transcript of an interview I conducted several years ago w/Wolfgang Kloth, a tank commander who served in Pz IIIs, IVs and StuG IIIs.  He discusses the AT rifles, thrown tracks and all sorts of other good stuff

www.amps-armor.org/.../bbsDetail.aspx

(I recommend everyone read it!)