DAK RAL 8000 confusion

Bish

Do you guys really spell Grey with an a. Well i never spotted that.

There's a mnemonic:  "England withan 'e'; American with an 'a.'" to remember the spelling.

Our Canadian neighbors will append "colour" to keep it clear (the usof the Norman spelling of the ö dipthong as "ou" is consistant all acrss Canada).

ManCityFan

You may be wondering why I am worrying about a $10 model, but want to set up good habits early by doing research and asking questions.

                                          
A great strategy that will serve you well in more expensive builds.
                                               

                                                  

jgeratic

There is this colour photo of an Ausf. F captured by Americans in Tunisia:

Tank has been identified as belonging to Panzer-Abteilung 190.   It does look like the original paint was grey.  My only question is why do the helmets look dark grey?

regards,
Jack

 

US Army Olive Drab paint has certain gray aspects depending upon lighting conditions. Also when you add in the peculiarities of various film types the gray aspects can really be pronounced. 

This vehicle is from the 5th Leichte Div., (rebuilt into the 21st Pz Div. in August, 1941), Pz Rgt 5, as evident by the riveted armor splash guard added to the mantlet front, a modification unique to the Pz IIs of Pz Rgt 5, as is the right side mounted storage box seen in this photo;

This is an Ausf B, as noted by the lack of conical boltheads over and under the vision blocks. Note 21st Pz. Div. symbol.

The color shot is either a Ausf B or Ausf C, as noted by the riveted mantlet splash guard armor and earlier, spoked idler. Definitely not a Ausf F. It appears to be sporting an application of mud slurry over it's original Panzer Grey.

Not directing you how to paint your model, just providing info ...

The colour beach photo does look to be a paste created from desert sand covering the vehicle, but again, it is an earlier mark of the Panzer II - note the lack of a turret bin.   The bullet splash shields in front of the turret was characteristic of the early panzers that landed with 5th light div., and not the F model.

------------------------------------

There is this colour photo of an Ausf. F captured by Americans in Tunisia:

Tank has been identified as belonging to Panzer-Abteilung 190.   It does look like the original paint was grey.  My only question is why do the helmets look dark grey?

regards,
Jack

armornut

Danke schoen Her Bish. Looks like we got this gentleman on his way to the dark side. (insert maniacal laughter here). Thanks also to all y'all who chimed in,  MCF please post pix when ya get the ball rolling. Happy modeling good sir.

 

No need to push me to the dark side.  Already there.  Here is a picture of my "vintage" stash that has followed me from home to home for the past 30 years.

Finally decided it is time to put some of these together.

Thanks all for the comments!!

Well, I did find this picture:

If you look at the turret, you can see what looks like panzer grey around the insignia.  Not sure if this was reapainted or just had mud splattered on it.  So I think I will prime in panzer grey, and then use RAL 8000 over it, then weather heavily with dust effects.  I remember reading that dust got EVERYWHERE, and that in B & W photos, what looks like yellow is actually dust. 

armornut

Danke schoen Her Bish. Looks like we got this gentleman on his way to the dark side. (insert maniacal laughter here). Thanks also to all y'all who chimed in,  MCF please post pix when ya get the ball rolling. Happy modeling good sir.

 

Herzlich willkommen.

Ye, deffo post pics. It doesn't count unless we see evidence.

ManCityFan

Well, I was kind of kidding about that, but it certainly would help me learn what does and doesn't work for weathering effects. Could be quite fun, actually. And that is the point.

 

Its wasn't un known for Germans to use mud to camo a vehicle, both in Africa and elsewhere, especially when the vehciles were grey.

stikpusher

 

Bish

O ye, many of us have cut our teeth on that one. Certainly one to use as a practice piece.

 

 

 

 

in all honesty, do abase coat or Panzer Gray (or Grey for Bish) and do a mud coat. 

 

Do you guys really spell Grey with an a. Well i never spotted that.

Danke schoen Her Bish. Looks like we got this gentleman on his way to the dark side. (insert maniacal laughter here). Thanks also to all y'all who chimed in,  MCF please post pix when ya get the ball rolling. Happy modeling good sir.

I'd say only the very first arrival of vehicles (10 February – 12 March 1941) would of been finished in grey.  This was initally known as the 5th light division, later redesignated the 21st Panzer Division on August 15th.

Photos show that by the time 15th Panzer arrived (between April 24th and May 6th  1941), they were shipped in factory tropen colours:

Also, the Panzer IIf production began March 1941, so it's doubtful this version was shipped in grey scheme.  The balance of  5th light's panzer force was shipped Feb.28, while the other panzer division ship dates are noted above.

regards,

Jack.

You will never have more fun than weathering an AFV...  

Bish

O ye, many of us have cut our teeth on that one. Certainly one to use as a practice piece.

 

in all honesty, do abase coat or Panzer Gray (or Grey for Bish) and do a mud coat. 

O ye, many of us have cut our teeth on that one. Certainly one to use as a practice piece.

ManCityFan

 

Bish

 

 

But always treat with caution. What the rules say and what happened on the ground are not always one and the same. Only way to be sure, find a pic of the vehicle your building, if possable, in colour. But good luck with that

 

 

 

 

So it appears that AMMO of Mig Jimenez has a pretty good representation of RAL 8000 based on comparing it to the website above, although that color is darker than anything I have seen done by other modelers. 

I could always cheat and use British desert color and say this paint was used after being captured (which would be historically accurate).  Or, I could paint armor gray, and weather the hell out of it with mud (which would also be historically accurate from what I have read). 

Ooh, that would be a great diorama.  Unhappy tankers slapping mud on their gray tank so it won't stick out like a sore thumb.  Keeping that one for a later build.  I would have to find figures that would fit that scenario.  Just trying to get a decent tank done at this point with limited experience.

I have had no luck finding a picture of a DAK Panzer II in color.  Plenty in B&W, but interpreting that is pretty tough.

Going to put an online order in this weekend, and will probably go with the Mig paint, shoot it, then post here, and see what folks think.

Thanks for the input.  It is greatly appreciated.

 

I have never used the MiG paints. I use Xtracolour which comes in the colour ranges, RAL, RLM etc. But even so, colours vary. One museum was restoring a 251 a number of years ago and found 7 shades of Dark Yellow. So try the MiG out and see what you think.

By the way, which Pz II kit have you got.

Bish

 

 

But always treat with caution. What the rules say and what happened on the ground are not always one and the same. Only way to be sure, find a pic of the vehicle your building, if possable, in colour. But good luck with that

 

So it appears that AMMO of Mig Jimenez has a pretty good representation of RAL 8000 based on comparing it to the website above, although that color is darker than anything I have seen done by other modelers. 

I could always cheat and use British desert color and say this paint was used after being captured (which would be historically accurate).  Or, I could paint armor gray, and weather the hell out of it with mud (which would also be historically accurate from what I have read). 

Ooh, that would be a great diorama.  Unhappy tankers slapping mud on their gray tank so it won't stick out like a sore thumb.  Keeping that one for a later build.  I would have to find figures that would fit that scenario.  Just trying to get a decent tank done at this point with limited experience.

I have had no luck finding a picture of a DAK Panzer II in color.  Plenty in B&W, but interpreting that is pretty tough.

Going to put an online order in this weekend, and will probably go with the Mig paint, shoot it, then post here, and see what folks think.

Thanks for the input.  It is greatly appreciated.

cabrown1

I've found this site to be a wonderful source of information on paint colors for german vehicles:

http://www.webring.org/l/rd?ring=ww2;id=863;url=http%3A%2F%2Fstugiii%2Ecom%2Fhome%2Ehtml

The link takes you to their home page, then click "German Vehicle Camouflage". Hope this helps.

Charles

 

But always treat with caution. What the rules say and what happened on the ground are not always one and the same. Only way to be sure, find a pic of the vehicle your building, if possable, in colour. But good luck with that

I've found this site to be a wonderful source of information on paint colors for german vehicles:

http://www.webring.org/l/rd?ring=ww2;id=863;url=http%3A%2F%2Fstugiii%2Ecom%2Fhome%2Ehtml

The link takes you to their home page, then click "German Vehicle Camouflage". Hope this helps.

Charles

armornut

Dunkelgelb= dark yellow,  grunbraun= green brown, gelbbraun is probably not chocolate brown. Not sure of the german word for chocolate but I'm almost sure it isn't gelb. As for DAK, While I have not researched much on the two divisions your discussing, vehicles that initially went to Africa were panzer grau, dunkel grun( dark green), it wasn't until late 42 early 43 that vehicles appeared or were painted dark yellow. Hope someone else will weigh in to help.

 

Schokolade

RAl 8000 was Grunbraun and Gelbbrun (yellow brown) was RAL 8020. 8000 was a darker brown colur and officially was combined with 7008. In March 42 the colour switched to 8020, a very light colour and 7027. So it really depends on when the vehicle you are doing reached Africa and if it got there before March 42, would it have been re-painted.

Also keep in mind the situation the Germans faced in Africa. Paint was not a priority for many variations can be found.

Dunkelgelb= dark yellow,  grunbraun= green brown, gelbbraun is probably not chocolate brown. Not sure of the german word for chocolate but I'm almost sure it isn't gelb. As for DAK, While I have not researched much on the two divisions your discussing, vehicles that initially went to Africa were panzer grau, dunkel grun( dark green), it wasn't until late 42 early 43 that vehicles appeared or were painted dark yellow. Hope someone else will weigh in to help.