Need your help to decipher a photo of Jagdtiger

OK skeptics, I am well aware of mistakes in even the most expensive of books. I could write a book just on all the mistakes I've seen. I have also taken senior level college classes on satellite and aerial photo interpretation and know how the camera, photo retouching and enhancement techniques can create objects that are not really there. The face on Mars is a prime example. Subsequent photos taken at 10 times the resolution showed this to be nothing more than a play of light and shadows taken at low resolution.

The first image is a close-up of the front of Jagdtiger 314 (305012), the second is Jagdtiger 305010:




As you can plainly see, the weld seams are easily visible, on the nose seam, upper hull and around the ball MG mount of Jagdtiger 314. These are not be visible through Zimmerit on 305012. The Zimmerit was also put on the mud guards of Jagdtiger 305010 as well, this plainly is not visible on 314. This is starting to get old folks, can we put this to bed yet?

I was one of the few that said the sides look to clean to have zimmerit if anyone remembers correctly , and this was without an exspensive book , that tank did not have zimmerit , I don't doubt that for a minute , but as larry said above unless I saw it in multiple books documentationwise I would have my doubts , many authors are not above embellishing something to sell books , these authors are most likely absolutly correct , why else would you create a book series based on a machine that had a production of 75 or less achtung panzer claims a production run of
Overall, from July of 1944 to April of 1945, only 85 Jagtigers were manufactured (out of 150 ordered) with known chassis numbers 305001 to 305077 or to 305088. Jagdtigers were produced by Nibelungenwerke at St. Valentin and were tested at Dollersheim in Austria.

Production Period: Number Produced:
July - December 1944,.... 49
January - April 1945 ,....36
this info comes from this sitehttp://www.achtungpanzer.com/pz12.htm , which has been pretty reliable so far , but once again this is relatively old history and the records may be flawed , my point here and I have to agree with larry here totally , without reliable photo evidence ,(and that can be altered easily now with photoshop) , stories are hard to believe , just ask any attorney or law enforcement official , there is his story her story and somewhere in between lies the truth !

QUOTE: Originally posted by monrad This makes it easy to know if a tank had the zimmerit or not when it left the factory, if you have the chassis number.

That's very persuasive, I completely agree. But if I saw photographic evidence to the contrary, I would lean toward the photo unless there was photgraphic evidence that clearly showed without.

All this to rationalize a bit why people would continue to discuss.

QUOTE: Originally posted by Peridexion You guys wanna talk about the face on Mars instead?

You are funny Peridexion.

Larry you are right, the documents aren't always right.
BUT in the case of german armor, EVERY book that I have ever read about Tigers, panthers, JagdTigers, Kingtigers etc. etc. they all say the same thing the order to stop aplying zimmerit was given on September 9th 1944, after this date NO vehichle recieved zimmerit, and it is well documented when the different chassis numbers left the factory. This makes it easy to know if a tank had the zimmerit or not when it left the factory, if you have the chassis number.

You guys wanna talk about the face on Mars instead?



Please zoom and read the caption, if it is legible. Note the German caption gives the correct date as March 18th, not March 8th as in the English translation. I'd drop in a 3 meg poster if I could, but Ron's site limits us to 150k. I have other photos which give the chassis number if you need to see those too. You guys gonna drop this yet, or do I need to call up the surviving crew members on the phone?

As for the crew: Commander Feldwebel Erick Bonike, Gunner Horst Theis, Driver Hubert Ressmann, Radioman Franz Kurrer and Loaders Walter Moises and Robert Kutscha. On the morning of March 17th, 1945 they abandoned and scuttled their immobile 314 and the nearby 322, loaded into their supply trucks and headed for St. Valentin, Vienna with the rest of their unit to pick up spare parts and 120 liters of wine they snagged at Krems. After numerous moves, redeployments, etc, they were to return to Nibelungen Werks to pick up new machines, only to find out that the SS had arrived before them and had stolen them! They ended up driving to Salzburg and surrendering to US forces on May 9th.

QUOTE: Originally posted by Peridexion So I know that someone is going to stand up a say; "Well then there could have been Henschel Jagdtigers built with Zimmerit because the hulls were already built by the end of September."

I won't say that.

It's great that you are supplying the analysis of the documents by the Schiffer fellows, and I know they are very committed and very thorough. On top of that, German records are extremely thorough. It's great evidence.

But without photographs (which I know you say you have -- and IMO that is conclusive), it's still just documentary evidence, and anyone who has been in officework for more than a few years (let me outta here!) knows that documents could be prepared by God himself and have some errors on it. My point is just that the photographic evidence is not automatically trumped by documentary evidence in a book, no matter how thorough and expensive it is. What is most persuasive to me, as I said above, is that you have a clear photo of particular vehicle w/o zimm. (Another great piece of evidence would have been one of the crewmen commenting on how his vehicle did not have zimmerit.)

That's a pretty cool web page.

Peredexion, what did happen to the crew in the end?

By the way, I had a go at the pic myself and after enhancing the resolution and toying with the contrast I found this:



I have no doubt that the documentation is correct, its just going to be one of those things, eh?

Ok time sto strip all that S!@# off ! Well I don't think so ! But Ty anyways . Will just go with what I got and put the correct # on , that is if I can find it , these were just 80 plus ton roadblocks anyways , 700 hp in a big machine like that what a joke , and what were they thinking anyways , in the words of the great Otto Carrius himself "
"When the assault guns were calibrated in Sennelager, we experienced our first failure. Despite its 82 tons, our Hunting Tiger didn't want to act like we wanted it to. Only its armor was satisfactory, its maneuverability left a lot to be desired. In addition, it was an assault gun. There was no traversing turret, just an enclosed armored housing. Any large traversing of the main gun had to be done by moving the entire vehicle. Because of that, transmission and steering differentials soon broke down. That such a monstrosity had to be constructed in the final phase of the war made no sense at all."

so ? can you go though all that again

Now I don't have to buy the book, you ( Peridexion ) have almost written the entire contents of them here...........twice.

Here we go again....OK, according to the production records that I have, 9 out of the first 10 Jagdtigers built were Porsche variants. The first jagdtiger, 305001(Porsche) and the second Jagdtiger built, #305002, (Henschel), did not have Zimmerit, track stowage hooks or gun supports. These two vehicles were sent to Kummersdorf for testing. (see previous reference to Jagtiger...volume 2, page 173). Jagdtigers 305003 through 305010 were all Porsche variants and all had Zimmerit. 305010 was the last to have Zimmerit. Zimmerit application ended with the September 9th, 1944 order to Nibelungen Werk to "discontinue use of Zimmerit". The first Henschel variant delivered to a combat unit was 305013 and all subsequent vehicles built were Henschel. So, there are no production records of Henschel variant Jagdtigers with Zimmerit. By now you all are wondering why the long-winded answer, here's why: Production of Jagdtiger hulls ran far ahead of actual vehicles finished, so by the end of September, 1944, the total number of hulls completed was 75, but total number of Jagdtigers completed was only 16. So I know that someone is going to stand up a say; "Well then there could have been Henschel Jagdtigers built with Zimmerit because the hulls were already built by the end of September." Not so. Zimmerit application was a 2 day procedure that was not performed until final assembly was complete. So before everyone floods the forum with all your photos of Zimmerited Jagdtigers, make sure you can identify the suspension type first. I have hundreds of photos of Jagdtigers, none of the Henschel ones have Zimmerit.

Perdexion: Did any of the henchell units have zimmerit on them or was that just a porsche thing ? My henchell has zimmerit on it , and am kinda mad that I did apply that to my 2 weeks of hard work ,very dissapointing to say the least , but I found out later that this was not a common thing for henshells to have on them , if at all ! I had the cavaleir zim kit and wanted to use it so i did , and it came out looking great , but innaccurate i suppose.

Thanks Peridexion. I know schifferbooks, I have a couple myself, and they are high quality.
I'll try and save some money to buy them, its allways nice with more reference.
BTW this is the kind of thing we should have a reference forum for. Go and have a look and give us your support http://www.finescale.com/fsm/community/forum/topic.asp?page=1&TOPIC_ID=18633

I am too , I am too

QUOTE: Originally posted by monrad Exactly Peridexion. When I saw people starting to question if there was any zimmerit or not AFTER all of your great reference, I just couldn't stop laughing.

I'm still laughing

Thanks Monrad. The book; Jagdtiger......volumes 1 and 2, is from Schiffer Publishing, ISBN: 0-7643-0750-9 and 0-7643-0751-7 respectively. $50 USD each. Volume 1 is technical history, volume 2 is operational history. If you can't find it locally, try: www.schifferbooks.com

Exactly Peridexion.
When I saw people starting to question if there was any zimmerit or not AFTER all of your great reference, I just couldn't stop laughing.
I mean, it looks like some people doesn't read the other answers before they post a reply them self
I know a thing or two about Tigers but I don't know much about the Jagdtiger, and I have enjoyed reading your posts, great info. Thanks Peridexion.
One question Peridexion, I know where I can get the book about schwere panzerjager abteilung 653, but where can i get; Jagdtiger, the Most Powerful Armoured Fighting Vehicle of World War II, volumes 1 and 2

What do I think? Chassis number is the only thing that matters here. This particular vehicle is well known. I know when it was built, when it was issued, to whom it was issued, the names of all the crew members, where it saw action, where it met it's demise and the fate of it's crew. But most importantly, I know it's chassis number. Whether or not people think they are seeing zimmerit here is irrelevant, zimmerit application ended with chassis number 305010, this is chassis number 305012, therefore no zimmerit. Field application of zimmerit was long since over by this stage of the war, so that isn't an issue either. Chassis number 305001(Porsche) and 305002 (Henschel) did not have zimmerit. All other Jagdtigers built up to and including chassis 305010 had factory applied zimmerit. After that, all other Jagdtigers did not have zimmerit, period. Without these production figures, vehicle and unit histories, I don't know why you folks are arguing this point. I have a full page, 7x10 inch, high resolution photo of this vehicle. To quote the caption: "Note that this Jagdtiger does not have Zimmerit anti-magnetic paste." Do I need to scan this in and post it? If you don't have either the Combat History of Schwere Panzerjager Abteilung 653 or Jagdtiger, the Most Powerful Armoured Fighting Vehicle of World War II, volumes 1 and 2, then what do you have for references? These 3 books contain over 450 pages on the Jagdtiger alone and at over $200 for them, I sure as heck hope they are correct.

theres a bigger version of this photo in my Schwere Panzer in detail by Culver and Feist and it hasnt got any zimerit on it
it would look ok with it though

theres some Jagtiger photos here http://www.panzer.punkt.pl/

well, Peridexion

QUOTE: I fooled around with the picture in Photo Shop and if you look it appers that you can see some of the zim pattern... Can't say for sure but it looks like there is some kind of pattern there...

what do you think???

I'm still intersted with JT 305010.

I fooled around with the picture in Photo Shop and if you look it appers that you can see some of the zim pattern... Can't say for sure but it looks like there is some kind of pattern there...

Tom

SHModeler: I seriously don't think anyone will condemn you for zimming a porsche tank , it was pretty common for this version to have it , so i hardly think anyone will notice one bit , what I wouldn't do and is common for modelers to do , even in missing links mind you , is paint any JT with that late war paint that King tigers and late panthers have , most of these vehicles were actually painted with only one or two colors , or maybe that 3 tone that mid war stuff had . Many porcshe JT's were just solid dark yellow .

Peridexion! thank you! you saved the day!

I feel so lucky! I actually Zimmerited all the way up to the higher track rack.
so I'm right on track.
I'll really appriciate it if you could put here the photos. I've waited a long time to build this one.
Ounce again thank you very much!

Here is the color artwork of 305010;



I need to scan the other photos in, and I don't have time right now. I'll get them in tomorrow.
Spector, I don't have the Combat History of s.Pz.Jg.Abt. 512,..... yet! I think there is a copy of it at my favorite bookstore, but it's 180 miles away. Maybe in a couple of weeks I'll have an answer for you.

Oh BTW on your JT or JAGDPANTHER crews , don't paint the uniforms the usual panzer black , ABT crews used a light greenish grey , with black and pink of all colors for shoulder patches , yet another mistake I made on mine .http://www.angelfire.com/sk2/germanuniforms/ Perdexion , do you know what Otto Carius' JT # was at the end , or was it roman numeral 2 or similar ? Any help would be appreciated

I would have to say 314 has no zimmerit , the sides look too clean , zimmerit on jagdtigers went half way up the would be turret just under the side # if it had it . There is a tank in the top row I think second from the right , side view that does have zimmerit, I believe the porsche version was the only one to have this applied , I put it on my henschell JT , and I like it , but it is inaccurate . By the end of the war zimmerit process was eliminated due to time limitations , the stuff took up to 9 days to apply and dry , it was just not worth the wait at that point . The porsche version was also not the chosen version of the 2 due to severe suspension problems , so there weren't very many of these in service .

Here is a very nice diorama of Jagdtiger #305010;
http://www.ww2modelmaker.com/modelpages/CpJagddio.htm
Ron's site seems to be down right now, probably for maintenance. I'll try to post the photos later.

here’s only one Porsche Jagtiger left and that’s in Bovington and its missing a bit of its suspension on its right side, its not the one in the photo because the one in the photo has been blown up by its crew (the guns been dislodged from its mount) (or so it says in my book)

QUOTE: Originally posted by Larry_Dunn The vehicle seems to have been captured. What was its fate? Was it scrapped or sent to the US or UK for analysis?

I don't think it was captured, I think the GI just stopped to give them a hand!!!