bobbaily wrote:

...so the Marder III M was potentially @ Kursk?  hmmmmm...that opens up some other possibilities.  However, all the web sites that I have seen don't show any Marder III M's @ Kursk...however, I don't claim to be an expert....but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express....

LMAO!!!!        

I didn't do any serious research on Kursk, I was just looking at the production date.    But I now feel an urge to know more about what type of vehicle were used.

tigerman wrote:

ruddratt wrote: Cool. So if the P. IV H was indeed at Kursk, then that's my choice. If not, then jot me down for the Marder III 38(t) with the 7.62cm gun. Unless someone can prove otherwise, I say go for it.

I would say yes, as it was produced from April 1943.   It would most likely be a early variant with earlier type of drive sprocket and idler.

Hey

     Tigerman

      I just order Cyber Hobby new 1/35 T-34/76 STZ. I loved to do is for the build. But it is not shipping till Mid June. So what you say am I in  with this model or should I look around for another one?

Thanks

M1 A1 A2 Tanker wrote:

Hey      Tigerman         I just order Cyber Hobby new 1/35 T-34/76 STZ. I loved to do is for the build. But it is not shipping till Mid June. So what you say am I in  with this model or should I look around for another one? I say sure. The build will start in July. You're good. Bob, I'd say the Marder with the Russian 76mm and maybe the H might have been there. They mustered as many tanks as they could. The M version, I'm not so sure. We need refs guys.   Thanks

So Tigerman is that a yes?

Thanks 

Now I'm back on my feet and back modelling put me down as a Yes.

Not sure what I'll be building yet but I'll have a look through my Kursk book and see what takes my fancy............will probebly be something Soviet.

tigerman wrote:

M1 A1 A2 Tanker wrote: Hey      Tigerman         I just order Cyber Hobby new 1/35 T-34/76 STZ. I loved to do is for the build. But it is not shipping till Mid June. So what you say am I in  with this model or should I look around for another one? I say sure. The build will start in July. You're good. Bob, I'd say the Marder with the Russian 76mm and maybe the H might have been there. They mustered as many tanks as they could. The M version, I'm not so sure. We need refs guys.   Thanks

I pulled out the instructions for my Tamiya Marder III M and that left me with the impression that the M didn't see service until early 1944.  Short of time travel, I'm guessing that there weren't any M's @ Kursk.  I'll stick with the orginal plan-T-34/76, Model 1941

Had a moment to do a quick search.  Looks like the first M's were issued May 1943.  Here is a good link that has a lot of info.

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/marder.htm

M1 A1 A2 Tanker wrote:

So Tigerman is that a yes?   Thanks

I don't know anything about the STZ version, but being a T-34, I'd say it should qualify.

Thanks Bob for the link.

Gun Tech wrote:

I would say yes, as it was produced from April 1943.   It would most likely be a early variant with earlier type of drive sprocket and idler.

Duley noted. I will make sure to incorporate that into my build. Thanks!

Hey Bob,

I dug through my book and can't make a definitive determination regarding the white wash.  There were 2 or 3 pictures that looked like they might have had just a shred or trace of whitewash on certain spots, but for the most part they were also covered with a lot of dust so I can't be certain.  Too bad good quality color photography didn't exist back then. 

tigerman wrote:

My refs aren't much better Glyn. From what I can gather- no. It appears late 43 at best.

According to my ref.    September 1943

OH YES!!!!!

I'm definitely in on this one - I hope to do the Dragon Premium edition Elefant. I also want to use the four MasterBox eastern front figure sets, and build a diorama with the tank. That might not be done in time...but I should be able to a tank.

BTW, the MasterBox figures are VERY well done if anybody's looking for good, animated figures to accompany a Kursk-era vehicle. I mean REALLY good. The weapons and equipment are a little crude but the posing is better than many resin figures.

And yes, Marder III M was not in service until after Kursk, for sure. At Kursk, 'Das Reich' had a Panzerjager regiment with several Marder III ausf N and two Marder II's. I think the other two SS Panzergrenadier divisions would probably have had Panzerjager regiments as well.

Hermesminiatures wrote:

OH YES!!!!! I'm definitely in on this one - I hope to do the Dragon Premium edition Elefant. I also want to use the four MasterBox eastern front figure sets, and build a diorama with the tank. That might not be done in time...but I should be able to a tank. BTW, the MasterBox figures are VERY well done if anybody's looking for good, animated figures to accompany a Kursk-era vehicle. I mean REALLY good. The weapons and equipment are a little crude but the posing is better than many resin figures.     And yes, Marder III M was not in service until after Kursk, for sure. At Kursk, 'Das Reich' had a Panzerjager regiment with several Marder III ausf N and two Marder II's. I think the other two SS Panzergrenadier divisions would probably have had Panzerjager regiments as well.

Bad news Hermes. The Elefant was the solution to the Ferdinand, which got decimated at Kursk.

Duh. I knew that, I just corrected somebody on it last week.

I don't have the kit yet, so no big deal. I'll just get the Ferdinand instead.

On the question of the Marder III M, the first 20 units were shipped from BMM to the depots in May 1943 and the last 39 in June 1944. This coincides with the last 6 Marder III H that were shipped in May 1943 as the production cut over to the M. The Marder III (sdkfz 139) with the 7.62cm (r) gun production ended with the shipment of 50 vehicles in October 1942.

Regarding the units equipped with the Marder, you can determine if the following units were at Kursk...with the markings provided in your kit...

PzJgAbt 559 (independent unit), Marder III H and M  

PzJgAbt 616 (independent unit), Marder III, III H, III M 

PzJgAbt 731 (independent unit), Marder III, III H, III M (only in 1944)

PzJgAbt 744 (independent unit), Marder III M

PzJgAbt 37, 1st PzDiv, Marder III H and M (Eastern Front)

PzJgAbt 49, 4th PzDiv, Marder III H and M (Eastern Front)

PzJgAbt 53, 5th PzDiv, Marder III H and M (Eastern Front)

PzJgAbt 41, 6th PzDiv, Marder III H (Eastern Front)

PzJgAbt 42, 7th PzDiv, Marder III, III M (Eastern Front)

PzJgAbt 43, 8th PzDiv, Marder III, III H, III M (Eastern Front)

PzJgAbt 61, 11th PzDiv, Marder III H, M (Eastern Front, France (1944))

PzJgAbt 33, 15th PzDiv, Marder III (Africa)

PzJgAbt 27, 17th PzDiv, Marder III, III H (Eastern Front)

PzJgAbt 19, 19th PzDiv, Marder III, III M (Eastern Front)

PzJgAbt 92, 20th PzDiv, Marder III, III H (Eastern Front)

PzJgAbt 39, 21st PzDiv, Marder III, III H (Eastern Front)

PzJgAbt 1, 1st SS PzDiv LAH, Marder III H (Eastern Front 1942, Italy 1943, France 1944) 

PzJgAbt 2, 2nd SS PzDiv Das Reich, Marder III H (Eastern Front, France)

PzJgAbt 15, 15th InfDiv, Marder III H (Eastern Front)

PzJgAbt 16, 16th InfDiv, Marder III H (France)

PzJgAbt 31, 31st InfDiv, Marder III M (Eastern Front)

PzJgAbt 34, 34th InfDiv, Marder III H (Eastern Front)

PzJgAbt 349, 349th Inf Div, Marder III M (France 1944, Eastern Front)

PzJgAbt 3, 3rd PzGrenDiv, Marder III H or M (Italy)

PzJgAbt 10, 10th, PzGrenDiv, Marder III H, III M (Eastern Front)

PzJgAbt 228, 16th PzGrenDiv, Marder III H or M (Eastern Front)

PzJgAbt 8, 20th PzGrenDiv, Marder III M (Eastern Front)

PzJgAbt 29, 29th PzGrenDiv, Marder III H or M (Sicily, Anzio)

PzJgAbt 60, 60th PzGrenDiv, Marder III H or M (Eastern Front)

PzJgAbt 53, 5th Jager Division, Marder III H or M (Eastern Front)

PaJgAbt 16, 16th VolksGrenDiv, Marder III M (France)

1st SkiJager Div, Marder III M (Eastern Front)

All information derived from "Marder III and Grille" by Vladimir Francev and Charles Kliment...who in turn cite sources ranging from BMM archive records to Jentz. HTH.  

detailfreak wrote:

where/when was the dicker max intro'd.got trumpeters version on the way.or a stug g model.as for the elefant.it could be backdated to a ferdi with a little work.havent started the western group build but would like to join in on this one also.if any one is thinking of a marder 2,the dragon offering is very good except for suspension alignment issues that i noticed.

2 Dicker Max were produced in 1941. They were used in Russia by the 3rd Panzer Division. One was destroyed and captured by the Russian, and the other returned in Germany in October 1941. The fate of the later is unknow.

Hermesminiatures wrote:

Just a question - what were the visible differences between the Ferdinand and the Elefant? I know the Ferdinand didn't have the bow MG, had the old fold up commander's hatch rather than the cupola, didn't have zimmerit, and had a different travel lock. Is there anything else? Because if that's it, I'll just swipe the front glacis and cupola from the Dragon Ferdinand and add them to their Premium edition Elefant. That way I won't have to buy a bunch of AM.

I think you have all of it Hermes.

Hermesminiatures wrote:

Just a question - what were the visible differences between the Ferdinand and the Elefant? I know the Ferdinand didn't have the bow MG, had the old fold up commander's hatch rather than the cupola, didn't have zimmerit, and had a different travel lock. Is there anything else? Because if that's it, I'll just swipe the front glacis and cupola from the Dragon Ferdinand and add them to their Premium edition Elefant. That way I won't have to buy a bunch of AM.

Bingo!  That's exactly the difference. 

There's also 2 minor, and somewhat optional differences - the tools were arranged differently on the Elefant, and some Ferdinands didn't have the gun mount shield.

I just found that out - not try to prove anybody's wrong

So, when do we start?