King tiger Porshe turret .

bostonbruins34 wrote:

I think your tiger is awesome!! I'm no tank expert and am currently working on the 1/35 Porsche turret. After much experiment with trying zimmerit (and getting results I didn't like) I decided to forgo it...I hear the sighs from some... I was hesitant to bring that up is because (and I'm probably not in the minority here) we all want to do something WE are happy with but would also like approval from our peers. If it's sitting on my shelf and I'm happy that is the way it should be unless I want to enter a competition. If I decided to put a picture here for approval or feedback I would be expecting honest feedback, but to have people nit-pick it apart (the mud on the tread doesn't look like ACTUAL mud from the Ardennes, or the dunkelgrun is a millishade too dark) probably stops many from presenting these works to others. I'm sure there are many others who feel this way. Now if the tank had a big old halogen headlight or a Radio Shack cb anttena that would be cause for serious debate!!!  I don't think the scientists at Chemische Werke Zimmer AG were out in the field measuring the height, depth and width of the coating. Your tank here is awesome and I'm sure 98% of the people here think so too!!! BTW  The Tiger II at the Bovington Tank museum is zimmerit free and that is what I went off of. (even though someone may come back and tell me it isn't a Porsche turret!!!)

bostonbruins34 wrote:

Thanks for the update on the Bovington Tiger!! I did wonder why they didn't zimmerit it or why is was "cleaned" and thats a great explanation. You mention the paint. Should there be so much dunkelgelb? I really have no good color reference to go by...

Ofcourse this shouldn't turn into a discussion about Tiger tanks, this thread is about Bodge's model. So i'll just answer this one question and if there is any more i think we should take it in a seperate thread or by PM's/mails. 

If you are asking about the Porsche turreted Tiger II at Bovington it is generally accepted that this tank and its sister vehicle V1 which were both test vehicles were both painted in solid darkyellow and nothing else, as they were not intended for front line service there was no need to waste any paint on them. 

Thanks for the update on the Bovington Tiger!! I did wonder why they didn't zimmerit it or why is was "cleaned" and thats a great explanation. You mention the paint. Should there be so much dunkelgelb? I really have no good color reference to go by...

I found a site that listed camo patterns (http://www3.sympatico.ca/wmburns/Bmisc.html) but am unsure how accurate it is.  I was under the assumption that most patterns were more striped and there was more of the olivegrun and schokoladenbraun. the schokoladenbraun by Model Master is supposed to be the same as Tamiya's XF-64 Rotbraun. At least that is how they are listed on the site I put the link to. The  schokoladenbraun is pretty dark compared to Tamiya. You guys seem to have a better idea than the guys at Tamiya so any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!!!

TMN1 wrote:

SNIPPED: It is just another example that one should be careful with using museum vehicles as reference.

I just realized the 'backstory' I can use when I eventually share any of my work here! My model shall depict an AFV based upon a preserved vehicle from a museum that has staff who are either financially constrained or simply ill informed to have done a proper job!

BTW TMN1- thanks for sharing all of those pics! I certainly don't have your reference library and I enjoyed seeing such things as the various camo applied to those KTs!

bostonbruins34 wrote:

BTW  The Tiger II at the Bovington Tank museum is zimmerit free and that is what I went off of.

You absolutely right, the porsche turreted Kingtiger at Bovington is without zimmerit. The Kingtiger with Henschel or production turret at Bovington does have zimmerit and so does the Jagdtiger. 

Now the general rule of thumb is that all Porsche turrets should have zimmerit because all 50 of them were made within the time frame where zimmerit were applied to all tanks at the factory, so why doesn't the one in Bovington have zimmerit ?

Well it could have been removed after the war whne they gave it the horrible paint scheme it now wears, or it could have chipped off during the war, it is unlikely though that all of it would chip off, how ever the answer is that this particular vehicle never had any zimmerit, it is a test vehicle and was never intended for front line service so there was no reason to apply zimmerit to it. It is chassis #V2, V=Versuchsgestelle=testvehicle, and like it's sister vehicle V1, it never had any zimmerit applied. If you get a chance to go to Bovington, have a look a the exhaust of this vehicle, it is quite special in that is has testports to measure pressure and temperature.

It is just another example that one should be careful with using museum vehicles as reference. 

I think your tiger is awesome!! I'm no tank expert and am currently working on the 1/35 Porsche turret. After much experiment with trying zimmerit (and getting results I didn't like) I decided to forgo it...I hear the sighs from some...

I was hesitant to bring that up is because (and I'm probably not in the minority here) we all want to do something WE are happy with but would also like approval from our peers. If it's sitting on my shelf and I'm happy that is the way it should be unless I want to enter a competition. If I decided to put a picture here for approval or feedback I would be expecting honest feedback, but to have people nit-pick it apart (the mud on the tread doesn't look like ACTUAL mud from the Ardennes, or the dunkelgrun is a millishade too dark) probably stops many from presenting these works to others. I'm sure there are many others who feel this way. Now if the tank had a big old halogen headlight or a Radio Shack cb anttena that would be cause for serious debate!!!  I don't think the scientists at Chemische Werke Zimmer AG were out in the field measuring the height, depth and width of the coating.

Your tank here is awesome and I'm sure 98% of the people here think so too!!!

BTW  The Tiger II at the Bovington Tank museum is zimmerit free and that is what I went off of. (even though someone may come back and tell me it isn't a Porsche turret!!!)

Bodge wrote:

I will let you two fight this one out

No fight here, we are civilized people ... i hope ;) 

Bodge wrote:

I think you have to be a king Tiger nut to know these things,Thanks anyway.

TMN1 wrote:

rios wrote: Gg 24/800/300 - 18 teeth double link- Porsche turret KT, P JT, some H turret KT Gg 26/800/300 - 9 teeth double link- H turret KT, JT Kgs 73/800/152 - late 18 teeth - final KT Have any picture of P turret KT with 26/800/300?  THANKYOU TMN1 you rest my case. Brilliant pictures by the way.   That is quite a big and very absolute statement, what is your reference for this ? And yes i have plenty of pictures of Tiger II with the so-called porsche turret with Gg 26/800/300 tracks, as i don't want to spent the entire night scanning i'll show you what i already have online. Here is not one but two Porsche turrets with Gg 26/800/300 tracks. And a closeup of the last one And here is some of a Porsche turreted from the Henschel test area with the Kgs 73/800/152 single link to prove they were not only fitted to Production turret versions. Infact the very tracks on this one are the ones that are now fitted to the Porsche turreted Kingtiger at Bovington. And one more from the Normandy area. And some of the Kingtigers from the battle of the bulge ... again not final KT's A bit hard to make out, but if you know what to look for you can see that it is infact Kgs 73/800/152 tracks.   And here is the reason they switched from Gg 24/800/300 tracks and 18 tooth drive sprockets and to the Gg 26/800/300 tracks and 9 tooth drive sprockets. Every 2 teeth wore out rather quickly.   My reference for these statements and pictures: Tigers in combat vol 1: Wolfgang Schneider Tigers in combat vol 2: Wolfgang Schneider V.K. 45.02 to Tiger II: Thomas L. Jentz Tigers at the front: Thomas L. Jentz Sd.Kfz. 182 Pz.Kpfw.VI Tiger Ausf. B "Königstiger" vol 1: Waldemar Trojca. Sd.Kfz. 182 Pz.Kpfw.VI Tiger Ausf. B "Königstiger" vol 2: Waldemar Trojca. Königstiger: Waldemar Trojca. Kingtiger heavy tank: New vanguard series. Tiger and kingtiger and their variants: Walter Spielberger Tiger at war: Waldemar Trojca. Schwere panzer in detail: Uwe Feist & Bruce Culver Achtung panzer #6

rios wrote:

Gg 24/800/300 - 18 teeth double link- Porsche turret KT, P JT, some H turret KT Gg 26/800/300 - 9 teeth double link- H turret KT, JT Kgs 73/800/152 - late 18 teeth - final KT Have any picture of P turret KT with 26/800/300?

That is quite a big and very absolute statement, what is your reference for this ?

And yes i have plenty of pictures of Tiger II with the so-called porsche turret with Gg 26/800/300 tracks, as i don't want to spent the entire night scanning i'll show you what i already have online.

Here is not one but two Porsche turrets with Gg 26/800/300 tracks.

And a closeup of the last one

And here is some of a Porsche turreted from the Henschel test area with the Kgs 73/800/152 single link to prove they were not only fitted to Production turret versions.

Infact the very tracks on this one are the ones that are now fitted to the Porsche turreted Kingtiger at Bovington.

And one more from the Normandy area.

And some of the Kingtigers from the battle of the bulge ... again not final KT's A bit hard to make out, but if you know what to look for you can see that it is infact Kgs 73/800/152 tracks.

And here is the reason they switched from Gg 24/800/300 tracks and 18 tooth drive sprockets and to the Gg 26/800/300 tracks and 9 tooth drive sprockets.

Every 2 teeth wore out rather quickly.

My reference for these statements and pictures:

Tigers in combat vol 1: Wolfgang Schneider

Tigers in combat vol 2: Wolfgang Schneider

V.K. 45.02 to Tiger II: Thomas L. Jentz

Tigers at the front: Thomas L. Jentz

Sd.Kfz. 182 Pz.Kpfw.VI Tiger Ausf. B "Königstiger" vol 1: Waldemar Trojca.

Sd.Kfz. 182 Pz.Kpfw.VI Tiger Ausf. B "Königstiger" vol 2: Waldemar Trojca.

Königstiger: Waldemar Trojca.

Kingtiger heavy tank: New vanguard series.

Tiger and kingtiger and their variants: Walter Spielberger

Tiger at war: Waldemar Trojca.

Schwere panzer in detail: Uwe Feist & Bruce Culver

Achtung panzer #6 

Gg 24/800/300 - 18 teeth double link- Porsche turret KT, P JT, some H turret KT
Gg 26/800/300 - 9 teeth double link- H turret KT, JT
Kgs 73/800/152 - late 18 teeth - final KT

Have any picture of P turret KT with 26/800/300? 

Bodge wrote:

Saying that i thought they were the right tracks anyway,Maybe this needs pointing out to Tamiya,i will have to do some research into track types 4 tiger twos and have a look. Any one got any ideas

There were 4 types of tracks for the Tiger II.

The very early style Gg 24/800/300. The tread link is identical to the one on your model in that it had 2 tread surfaces with raised cheverons. The connecting link was made up of a large center link with three smaller links next to it, one on the inside and two on the outside of the track, this type of track used a 18 tooth drive sprocket. It was also used on some Jagdtiger, the jagdtiger in Bovington is fitted with them.

The next type is Gg 26/800/300. This is the more common type of track and the one you would see in most Tiger II kits. The tread link is the same but the connecting link is now in one piece and not four as it was before, this track uses a 9 tooth drive sprocket.  This type of track is mounted on the Tiger II with production turret and zimmerit at Bovington.

The next type is Kgs 73/800/152. These are the late style single link tracks much like the Tiger I and Panther tracks, where all links are identical with one tread surface each. These are not seen on production vehicles until March 1945, however there are a few vehicles that had them installed during the battle of the bulge, and atleast 2 vehicle with the so-called "Porsche" turrets also had them fitte, probably as a test. The Tiger II with the Porsche turret at Bovington is fitted with these tracks, how ever these have been fitted to the vehicle by the museum after the war, originally it had the Gg 24/800/300 tracks.

The last type is ofcourse the transport tracks, which is a narrower version of the early Gg 24/800/300 tracks, made up of a narrow tread link and only using the large center piece of the connecting link, omitting the 3 smaller cennecting links.

As your model is a Porsche turret it could have been fitted with either the Gg 24/800/300 or the Gg 26/800/300 tracks. Your model doesn't have the armored cover over  the snorkel on the rear deck, it has a two piece gun tube and it has 5 bolts in the rear most side skirts this means it does not represent a very early Porsche turret and thus the Gg 26/800/300 tracks would be correct for this model, and that is exactly what is pressent on your model. 

Bodge wrote:

Sorry i thought i read cavalier zimmerit, Going MAD.PE is a completely different type,Cavalier is very thin.

Well besides the Verlinden PE Zim for a production turret tank and not the Porsche turret which I own, I was already wary to use it but thought it might serve in a crunch somehow, someway? But seeing your efforts has started rekindeling the fire to try my hand at doing it myself. I've also had the Tamiya Zim tools and a variety of recommended putties so I've had a bunch of options in stock for a long time but simply lacked the motivation! But that's why it's so great to come here and see what everyone shares like you say and this time it was your project that was a 'direct hit' for me!

Please keep sharing your progress!

Bodge,

 Thanks for posting your WIP! I have Tamiya's lil brother to this kit, in 1/35th. It's also a Porsche turret and I've already collected some PE and even wound up with the Verlinden PE Zimmerit although somehow I mismatched the standard turret application for that? But my point is- I've had all of this sitting in the stash forever and it took your post to cause me to dig it all out and take a fresh look at it! That's because your sharing has motivated my interest again- so thanks!

Did I say I like your efforts?

I do!

Hi.

Sry to disappoint you I've also killed my share of kits before realizing the saw tools aren't going to work. Yours is a 1/16 model and expansive though, I would suggest you redo this instead of abandoning.

Scrap down the original zimmerit with an xacto. Get rid of the thick parts (ridges) and sand it down as much as you could. You can sand the side and front down. back facing plates have a lot of surface elements so just get the larger areas.
Lay a thin layer of putty over it and push the screw driver in really hard when you reapply the zimmerit. You can force it all the way into the plastic, a little bit of putty will be no problem. Use the edge part of the phillipshead, not only will the sharp edge make this easier, it's what you use to get the right shape too.

You can try it out on some spare plastic first. Just remember, material is mostly forced away, not condensed. 

T26E4 wrote:

rios wrote: Whoops ,it looked so nice to me aswell,kinda made me loose interest on carying on on that now if it is obviously wrong, maybe someone has knowledge that some zimm was hurried and ended up with a finnish like mine ? Cheers , Bodge. Hi. 1.Since zimmerit was applied with a roller, the rolls might tilt, but lines should be straight. The saw type of tool also produce high ridge lines. Try a screw driver. It's plain that some zimm was applied with a trawl and ridges were sometimes made one at a time.  I agree that the lines tend to be very straight and wouldn't jog en masse like that.

cannot wait to see the diorama

hmm at that size I might be able to do the "photo etch"

rios wrote:

Hi. 1.Since zimmerit was applied with a roller, the rolls might tilt, but lines should be straight. The saw type of tool also produce high ridge lines. Try a screw driver.

It's plain that some zimm was applied with a trawl and ridges were sometimes made one at a time.  I agree that the lines tend to be very straight and wouldn't jog en masse like that. 

Hi.

1.Since zimmerit was applied with a roller, the rolls might tilt, but lines should be straight.
The saw type of tool also produce high ridge lines. Try a screw driver.
2.The correct track is the ATL-22 kind. Don't know if that comes in this scale. 

Very cleanly done, good work.