NP drum kit in 1/12 scale WIP Update 8.28

Hey Nam, love to hear what ou got.

Steve 

Okay Steve....here we go again.

I swear, I wrote an entertaining book a few hours ago. Can't do that again....just going to meat and potatoes.

 I'm an experienced machinist.....forget a lathe for making things you need in 1/12th. Nasa might have a lathe for you.....but......

 You need the 'bell' on the cymbal and maybe a slight parabola or arc on the cymbal profile (depending on NP's cymbals)....and not things that look like hats on rice paddy workers.

 You need to make some plaster or resin dies (preferrably resin).

 Look at the bottom of soda/juice bottles.....especially Tropicana 12oz OJ.....you can mold from that and file/sand high spots from there....and it will form a bell.

 This will give you a 'male' die.....forming the 'female' die just requires putting a barrier over the male....tin foil....maybe vaseline....and finding a way (that's up to you) of using resin to mold a female counterpart (which will need some filling and sanding, no doubt).

 Hole saws, wing bits et al will rip and tear the thin stock you need to use.

 Once you find a gold colored foil or thin stock, you need only to place it between your two resin dies and trace around it with a very sharp blade. You will obviously need to make dies for each size cymbal you need. Lotta work. Try to leave a 'flange' on the bottom of your 'male' dies to have something to cut against with your blade.

 But pop/juice bottle bottoms are the best/quickest thing I've seen to replicate the shapes you need....(and I've been thinking on this a long time).....check glass....plastic etc.

...Also....as you will need very thin stock to form cymbals.....you should 'coat' the bottom sides with something to stiffen them. Plus.....you should lightly score the metal in circles with some light sand paper before molding the cymbals.

 That's pretty much it minus the laffs and B.S. I added to my aborted post. Man that broke my heart. I put a lot of thought into this.

PS: Don't get caught looking at too many bottle bottoms! 

Nam-

This is brilliant, simply amazing. Sorry that the world lost out on the original post. Thanks for putting so much thought, time and effort into this. Have you been thinking of doing the same thing, or is this all just for lil' ole me

I am impressed that you have thought about the profile of a cymbal...  " not things that look like hats on rice paddy workers." Exactly!... one of the things that has got me stalled out. You must be a drummer, too.

"Look at the bottom of soda/juice bottles.....especially Tropicana 12oz OJ... "  I've looked at the bottom of that very brand's bottle one every morning this at 6 am, never, ever occurred... that's weird

It's gonna take two or three reads of your post to wrap my pea-brain around this, but I truly think that you're on to something.

Thanks again, Nam, for the energy you put into this.  

Steve 

 Hi Steve....

 Yeah, former garage band drummer.....now guitarist/guitar builder....I suppose I could model a famous guitar and post it here....hmmmm, just thought of that!

 No...the whole idea was about your build...I was just so impressed. I have sent a link to your photos to a younger friend that is a drummer (ahem...heavy metal), but a musician nonetheless. With all the work you're doing....heck, it needs to be right.

 Yes...make just a couple male molds....so you have a backup.....and make your cymbals from largest to smallest so the scoring marks don't conflict.

 I have a Tropicana 12oz OJ every morning before work....and Wednesday I was just standing around with the guys and I felt the dent in the bottle bottom and a light bulb went off. (I had been thinking about the cymbal problem).

 Tell you what.....You have your work cut out just making the drums....let me research and make you some dies....I have ideas about how to do it....just didn't want to flood you with everything at once. Let me try the die part and you 'make' the cymbals.

 ...and NP with the energy.....I love modelmaking and I have an engineering degree I rarely put to use! (see my topic about oil seal springs being used as hoses in 'Techniques'

 Good luck and get to work!

....and yes....future sets...especially Ringo's may benefit! 

Nam, if you're inspired by this, I will not try to stop you. Dyin' to see what you come up with (that punny)

I should have just started with Ringo's kit, I'd be done by now. Harder paint job, tho. The ultimate challange will be Bonzo's Vistalites. But I already think that half of a Legg's pantyhose egg shell could work for his timpani. 

Steve 

 You are a hoot!

 Yeah.....panty hose shell....great idea!

 I'm not familiar with Bonzo's kit.....is Vistalite a plexi type see-thru drum? Man! You could model a famous set of those so easily with the availability of clear tubing!

 I know Phil Collins used a clear set.....but his biggest distinction isn't that of a drummer.....that idiot from Motley Crue has used see-thru also.

 Sheesh! You may have hit on a cottage industry that the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame could be interested in. Think about that.

 Yup.....I'll take the time and design and build some dies for you.....Happy to take a small part in your project. YOU need to make the actual cymbals though to keep the whole project yours. I'll do some tests and pass along what I find.....you have your hands full with the drums and stands as it is.

 I ran into a friend just last night whose family owns a CNC machine shop and he would gladly make permanent dies of whatever material you wish.....steel, aluminum, polymeric resins. But as with any 'favor'.....I will probably have to keep on him down the road. If it fits your time frame....it can be done. I'm confident of that.

 Wintertime is my 'down' time when I can turn attention to hobbies and such.....and as a musician (and Beatles, Rush fan) I am excited about your project. 

 I'll get to work and get info on where to ship later. 

 Plus......there is a bunch of paint wizards here, as you know. Someone will figure a way to replicate Ringo's Ludwig paint job.....but take care of NP first......tackling the tougher one will make others that much easier.

Nam 

namrednef wrote:

tackling the tougher one will make others that much easier.  Nam

Bonzo Bonham- not sure if they were called vistalite back then

Moon the Loon

Pictures of Lily kit; not his most indulgent, but by far his most beautiful.

How about a motorized, spinning drum platform for the Tommy Lee uber-stupid drum castle?

 OOH-FAH!......The Bonzo kit should be easy for you after NP.....but you might need to talk to a tattoo artist if you ever want to do the Moon kit. What an awesome photo.......thanks.

 I'll happily post any useful info I see....(or dream up) if you don't mind. 

With the Tommy Lee kit.....as a tribute.....you might make a motorized turntable.....scratchbuild a kiddie drumkit with the South Seas palm tree thing on the bass front....y'know where everything in the kit is attached to the bass drum.....then put 4 million cymbals around it!

 I think everyone would get the joke

 Your possibilities at this point are endless......now if you could just win the lottery 

SteveM wrote:

namrednef wrote:  tackling the tougher one will make others that much easier.  Nam  Bonzo Bonham- not sure if they were called vistalite back then   Moon the Loon Pictures of Lily kit; not his most indulgent, but by far his most beautiful. How about a motorized, spinning drum platform for the Tommy Lee uber-stupid drum castle?

I recently finished The Drum Book: A History of the Rock Drum Kit by Geoff Nichols, which has numerous pictures of historic drum kits, including John Bonham's Amber Vistalite kit. The drums were made by Ludwig in the 1970's in half a dozen colors: clear, yellow, amber, red, blue and green as well as rainbow stripes. Ludwig even made the Tivoli drums with tiny lights inside!

Here's a drum challenge for you, SteveM: The book also pictures Carl Palmer's custom stainless steel kit from about 1975 with unusual consoles for holding the drums and cymbal stands. A jeweller engraved pictures on each drum, "...from field mice on the 6" drum to a horse and cart on the 18"...".

Jim,

If you get some time, you should scan that Carl Palmer kit and post it here. I knw about the St/ Steel shells, but can't recall the mounting hardware. Got me curious.

Steve

SteveM wrote:

Jim,   If you get some time, you should scan that Carl Palmer kit and post it here. I knw about the St/ Steel shells, but can't recall the mounting hardware. Got me curious.   Steve   Unfortunately, I don't have that kind of equipment on my computer. With a little luck, perhaps one of our fellow drummers might have a picture of the kit and post it. I wonder what the drums would sound like with such shells.

These?

Gad, SteveM, I can't believe it's been more than a month since I last perused finescale.com. Where does the time go? My apologies for taking so long to reply!

Anyway, it wasn't those drums. This kit had a single bass drum and the odd console the toms and cymbals were mounted on was a C-shaped thing. Palmer sat inside the C with the small toms on the bottom of the C (that is, to the drummer's left) and larger toms on the top of the C. The cymbals (five of them) were also mounted on this C-shaped console. The bass drum was on the left side of the C, or in the usual spot from the drummer's perspective.

Hope this helps you picture it a bit better, and once again, my apologies. How's your Neil Peart drum set coming?

Based upon previous posts:

I have tried various types of foil....and the thinnest aluminum, copper and brass sheet that can be had.

IMO....for cymbals that look real and to scale....it must be a foil.....but has to be coated with some kind of clear 'stiffener'.....any stiffener I've tried dries unevenly and makes the cymbal 'wavy', and cracks off when I try to straighten it.

But I'm working on it 

Wow, Nam. I feel bad- you've put more into this than I have.

My new work schedule has slowed my hobby time to a near stand-still. Driving me nutso! I'll get back to it, I swear. Once we get rockin' on those cymbals, we could do Terry Bozzio's kit:

Jim, I'll look for that kit. Sounds funky. 

Steve

Hi Steve!

Actually I thought I might be dropping the ball on this one! You just take your time on a great project.

I have a cymbal 'curing' right now....using a clear silicone coating.....I know it won't be 100% correct because I'll have to find a good release agent for the mold....but whatever part of the piece survives will let me know what to try next.

So right now it's: regular old tinfoil....tinted with strong vinegar. After all the exotic attempts.....simplest is best!

I don't spend hours over this.....I'm so behind anyway....a couple hours a couple times a week. But it is an engineering challenge (which I love)

Keep working and do not show anymore pics of the Bozzio kit!

Nam 

Well, a couple drummer friends (whom I sent a link to) say Bozzio is the closest ever to a one man percussion band....but looking at that pic....I don't know whether to lay on it, play on it, or eat it.

Keeping things cymbal,

Nam 

Fly us to Jupiter with that kit...

Bozzio is stunning, but I'm into much simpler drummers like Keith Moon And Stan Lynch (ex-Heartbreakers), Ringo... steady-beaters who play to the song. 

Steve

SteveM wrote:

Wow, Nam. I feel bad- you've put more into this than I have. My new work schedule has slowed my hobby time to a near stand-still. Driving me nutso! I'll get back to it, I swear. Once we get rockin' on those cymbals, we could do Terry Bozzio's kit:   Jim, I'll look for that kit. Sounds funky.  Steve

Now that's a drum kit and a half!

Perhaps you could make a mold of the contour of a cymbal, then use .005 sheet styrene and a vacuum-form machine to mold the cymbals out of the styrene, then cover them with thin foil or even paint them. Perhaps careful color selection or some sort of wash technique might simulate the grooves. In 1/12 scale, .005 styrene might not be too thick.

Or what about the aluminum containers that you can sometimes find holding frozen or take-out meals? It would certainly be stiffer than kitchen foil, yet thin enough in 1/12 scale for cymbals. And you don't have to run all over the place trying to find a stiffener. 

Steve.....I know you are a KM fan big time!.....but I'm of the same school.....funny you mention Stan Lynch....always been one of my favorites also. Why the hell did he quit Petty? I know he showed up somewhere else, but can't recall.

But my all timers are Ringo and Charlie Play anything....lay it down....one bass pedal

Jim.....that's the trouble.....so many things to try!

I've settled now on foil (just helping Steve find a way)....made a couple molds etc. Every medium is problematic though. I've spritzed a dark wash on various cymbal attempts and gotten a good look to them....but the subjects were too heavy for the scale.

Foil is nice because it's so maleable....but then it wrinkles when put in a mold....so you have to really lean on it to flatten the wrinkles.

Just having fun here.

Nam 

Jim- I've been pondering the styrene approach, and the vacuu-forming. I've never done that before, so all I have are theories. The all important grooves... I've thought about using something along the lines of a compass. The grooves dont need to be too pronounced, just hinted. Like you guys have said, a wash to pull them out. This seems very labor-intensive... I'd never get Bozzio's kit done in this lifetime

Brings me to the idea that I think would produce the most, the easiest, with the best looking, cymbals: stamping them out of thin brass sheet. A male and female mold, annealed thin brass.

Either method I choose, and it's gonna get hot in my kitchen.

Nam- how could I forget Charlie? Stan is a God for me. He and Petty weren't seeing eye to eye when it came to what a drum track should be. Jeff Lynch, after producing Full Moon Fever (with Jim Keltner on drums- another hero of mine), gave Petty the taste for simple, metronomic drum lines. Stifled Lunch's playing, so he left. Made a good living with some session work. Co-wrote with Don Henley. Started his own songwriting / producing. Heartbearkers ain't been the same for me since he left. Watching Stan play on Saturday Night Live in '79 solidified the deal for me, as far as being a drummer. Been makin' noise ever since.

Steve

Thanks for the info Steve.

Keltner....yes, he gets overlooked.....helluva resume when you look at his body of work.

Another couple favorites: The Police.....Copeland(?)....and Bun E. Carlos of Cheap Trick. 

When people used to ask me, "who do you sound like as a drummer?", I used to tell them, "like John Bonham... without the talent"

Steve

Yeah....very dumb not to have mentioned Bonzo....and Jim Barton....I know a place to get that foil pan you mentioned (I missed your post previously, sorry).....a Chinese food joint and a soup joint.

This may be the key! I can see it now.

Nam 

SteveM wrote:

When people used to ask me, "who do you sound like as a drummer?", I used to tell them, "like John Bonham... without the talent" Steve     SteveM, earlier tonight I just managed to catch the tail end of Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers' Super Bowl halftime show (I was out cooking hamburgers on the barbecue and missed the show) and caught a glimpse of what looked like a very unusual cymbal around the drum set. This cymbal appeared to have half a dozen holes, each about the size of a quarter or perhaps a little bigger. Unfortunately, the show ended and I never got another look. Did I see right that there were holes drilled through this cymbal or did I inhale a bit too much smoke from the barbecue? (Either way, the hamburgers turned out delicious.)