Modeling a "night" scene???????

The only issue I see with using day-glow paint and a black light would be the fact that other paints might reflect the black light as well. Not because of some reaction with the day glow, but just because black lights tend to give everything it's own wierd glow- some things you might have not expected to stand out might do just that. I'd do some trial and error tests with a blacklight and all the colors you're planning to use on the figure and the room- I think if everything's going to be behind the 3 sheets of green, it'd be more important what's glowing and what's not as opposed to getting the colors correct- I mean you wouldn't want it to look great... and then find out every tan pixel on the uniform is kicking back a glow like your IR tabs.

I don't think the purpleish color should effect the lighting of the scene too badly if you're still planning on putting it behind the green- seemed to me that those sheets knock out most of the color coming through anyway.

As for a black light LED? I'm sure someone makes one somewhere- I google searched it and a few hits came up but nothing I'm 100% about enough to stick a link on here.

Ok, so while I'm entertaining the thought of using a black light ... here's some questions I have...

1) Given that I can find these illum paints ... what are the chances of my exsisting acrylics reacting with the BL? i.e. the WHOLE thing ends up glowing brighter than a college party?

2) I know that I can find a small bar-type BL someplace, but does someone make a BL LED? (I've been thinking about my earlier post of using an IR LED, and I've come to the conclusion that, no, this idea will not work. You have to have some type of device that will "read" the IR light emission.)

and 3) BL give off a purple-ish light to begin with ... how do you think that this will effect the overall lighting of the scene.

 I'm just tossing out these questions to the gallery to try and spark conversation. That and I don't really have the time for any research until this next week, so I was hoping to get some research help from the forum.

I'm already building my "parts list" needed for this build, so technically, for me, the build has already begun ...

Thanks again for all your input, Hans and aj!

Hans von Hammer wrote:

do they make a paint that "glows" in black light? Sure, just pick the ones that are marked "Florescent" or "Day-Glow"... Testors used to make a set of about 6 colors (Red, Blue, Green, Yellow, Orange, & White, IIRC), dunno if they still do, but it's worth a look.

Michael's carries some acrylic flourescent paints.

do they make a paint that "glows" in black light?

psstoff995 wrote:

... now you just need some time and some of your workbench cleared off!

 You're not kidding ..... You've been talking with my wife, haven't you!

Looks nice- so much for my photoshop test- it does look close! I guess it's thick enough and not as translucent as I though- it holds it's own when it comes to keeping the color out. Sweet!

haha and 500'?! That should do it.

But yeah I think if you flaired the end of the FO and kinda stuck each flair into the corners of a clear square that might work too? I think you've definitly got your start, now you just need some time and some of your workbench cleared off!

Here's a shot of the current OIF figure that I'm working on ... 1st pic is of the face normally ....

... now a shot of the same face, but through the 3x sheets of green film that I've got.

The overhead light is a lot stronger than I want for the dio, but you get the idea. Pretty close right!?!

psstoff995 wrote:

Did some test in photoshop using a color picture and the same picture in B&W and I have to agree. Although the ACU through a transparent green layer looked the same in color and B&W- the fleshtones are the problem. Because the ACU is made up of grays and light tans, it's not really a big issue, but if your groundwork/buildings/skin tone is done in anything harsher than a grayish/greenish tone, it will be seen through the transparent green as a half green half flesh/sand color etc. I think if you do 90% of the figure painting as usual- then just did the flesh colors in a white-light grey range, maybe some blacks for deep shadows- you'd be ok. The green I picked for ^ was off- I'm sure you can find a better representation. And hey- here's one I found on google that looks pretty close to what you're describing ...wait a minute- 1st Cav and an M14 on the ground- you know this guy? Just noticed something- I think if you decide to do this- intead of a solid green color of plastic- you might want to try getting some clear green pains of various shades and coloring the plastic yourself- because of the way the IR sensors are set up and the curve of the lenses, it comes out like an over exposure in film photography would- more light in the center creates an unnatural kind of gradient- light green to dark green, like the IR waves bounce around inside the NVGs and collect in the middle? I don't know... I think if you airbrushed a lighter green in the center and worked your way out using darker greens you could pull off a similar effect if you wanted to. haha just to add another layer of complexity to this project.

That's awesome!!! I was just thinking about doing the same thing, thanks for heading it up for me!!!

With that, I do agree that the flesh tones should be kept to as grey-color as possible.

The clear styrene "IR tab" idea will help. However, I'm planning on "flaring" the ends of the FO I'm using to help with the light spread. I bought 500' of ebay a couple of weeks ago for an F-117 dio I'm doing ... yep, yet another model on the bench ....

Ah! You snuck one in while I was writing. If you already have the green film taken care of then no big deal.

I think you you could pull of lighting the IR patches from behind with FO that'd be amazing- if you could get some kind of clear acrylic sheet (thin) and cut it into squares then place them over top the FO as an "IR" patch- that might work to help shine the FO out in the IR square patch pattern you're looking for.

But again- I think you might be better off converting flesh tone to greys, and kind of brows to grey blacks and so on- like you said- the ACU should be fine, but anything outside of that soft color might show through AS color (like a dark brown might look to be a greenish brown?)

Did some test in photoshop using a color picture and the same picture in B&W and I have to agree. Although the ACU through a transparent green layer looked the same in color and B&W- the fleshtones are the problem. Because the ACU is made up of grays and light tans, it's not really a big issue, but if your groundwork/buildings/skin tone is done in anything harsher than a grayish/greenish tone, it will be seen through the transparent green as a half green half flesh/sand color etc.

I think if you do 90% of the figure painting as usual- then just did the flesh colors in a white-light grey range, maybe some blacks for deep shadows- you'd be ok.

The green I picked for ^ was off- I'm sure you can find a better representation.

And hey- here's one I found on google that looks pretty close to what you're describing

...wait a minute- 1st Cav and an M14 on the ground- you know this guy?

Just noticed something- I think if you decide to do this- intead of a solid green color of plastic- you might want to try getting some clear green pains of various shades and coloring the plastic yourself- because of the way the IR sensors are set up and the curve of the lenses, it comes out like an over exposure in film photography would- more light in the center creates an unnatural kind of gradient- light green to dark green, like the IR waves bounce around inside the NVGs and collect in the middle? I don't know...

I think if you airbrushed a lighter green in the center and worked your way out using darker greens you could pull off a similar effect if you wanted to. haha just to add another layer of complexity to this project.

ajlafleche wrote:

I still think you'll have to paint his black and white. There will be color shifts, reds will be browner, etc, but I still think you won't get the effect you want. See if you can find a pair of green sunglasses and hoild that beteween you and a painted kit. That's what you're going to get with a normally painted figure.

I already have a couple of sheets of the green film. It's made by Midwest Products and is labeled "Green PVC, .005 x 7.6" x 11".

I've got three sheets. When held up together, they create right about the correct green that I'm looking for. However, I do see what you're saying about the colors. But, for the scene that I'm going for there's really not all that much "color" to it. Iraq is all blan unless you're in the cities and looking at (mostly) womens' clothing. The figure I'm going for will have mostly browns, tans, greys (as I've found greys to be the best for ACU), and blacks. I'm also hoping that the green FO lighting to be used will help as well.

I figure that drilling out the figure won't be too bad. I'm thinking of a central drill hole through the core and down one leg. I'm going to need to light-up IR tabs on each shoulder, three on the helmet (both in white light so it's very bright), the PVS-14's will be lit so that the light reflects off the face, and the acrylic rod "laser" will be lit as well from the PEQ-4 on the rifle (both with green lights).

For the base, I'm thinking of putting the figure in the "corner" of a room. Something that will help close him in and cut off most of the surrounding light. If needed, I can always add a "roof" coming off the viewers window to help "shade" the dio.

Does anyone have idea if the fore-mentioned IR led with IR tabs would work? I guess I could always light up the model with IR lights and pass out NVGs to everyone to look at it!?! But then again I think my wife would have choice words about building the most expensive model on the planet....

If ALL that fails, I can always remove the white LED, replace it with a green one, so that all FO lighting coming from the model is green .... Wash the crud out of the fig and dio in dark washes, remove the filter/ film altogether and see if that works!?!

I still think you'll have to paint his black and white. There will be color shifts, reds will be browner, etc, but I still think you won't get the effect you want. See if you can find a pair of green sunglasses and hoild that beteween you and a painted kit. That's what you're going to get with a normally painted figure.

Hans von Hammer wrote:

Rather than using fiber optics for stars, I poked holes into a background of black velvet and back-lit it.

Yeah I thought about doing it that way too- definitly sounds more economical- how big a whole did you have to poke? I was thinking of doing it in a black cardstock like material- but with velvet I'd imagin unless you really tacked it down tight, the fabric would kind of envolope itself if the hole was too small.

...I gues nothing's too small when you're talking about light coming through?

modelchasm wrote:

I was actually thinking something very similar while lying in bed last night. I was thinking about using a clear green sheet set in a circular pattern (as if the viewer was looking through a PVS-14 themselves.) Have you tried this technique before, Hans? How well did it work out? If I'm thinking right, this should work out well. And the biggest plus side would be that I really would have to change that much from a regular build! PLS let me know what you think!

I know .... I was talking about it with the wife last night and all she could do was roll her eyes and ask how much I thought the whole thing was going to run.

I think the only thing that I've got to figure out is the M14 situation .... Mmmm ....

But yeah ... I'm trying not to get too overly-excited about it just yet. However, it is helping to push me to get done with my current figure.

Now the other 4 builds on the desk .... that's another situation...

This is going to be a monster! I think your idea about the green film would work great for setting the scene AND keeping the figure build more or less straight forward. It would also look awesome with the FO laser and if you could pull off the IR patches that'd be insane!!

I know you're going on a trip tomorrow and you already have a decent workbench load- but I'm still really excited to see where you can run with this idea.

Stern0 wrote:

Was thinking of those black light posters from back in the day...do they make a paint that "glows" in black light?

I just a total complete brain collaspe when I read your reply WW2 .... If I wired up an IR LED behind the viewer's "NVG" screen so that it throws IR light on the figure, THEN instead of painting the small IR squares on the uniform black ... I can use small cuts from an actual IR reflector square from an old uniform. Using the green filter/ film would you be able to see the IR glow? Hmmm .... might be worth a shot. (I know, I know .... I've used the stuff in combat, and I have to concept of how it really works .... it's ok ,I know I'm retarded!)

I simple understanding is this ... the green film should show the IR glow as it's filtering out all the light except the green light .... right!?!

Either that or I could try running FOs to those spots on the uniform. I know that would work. the only thing is, that's a lot of drill out to do on a 120mm figure ....

But it'd be worth it though, wouldn't it!!!

ajlafleche wrote:

The above mage from aj is the exact idea that I have in my head right now. Use a sheet of black styrene with a large hole cut out, with the green film behind it. That's what the viewer sees when they walk up to the model.

Thoughts ...

I see what you're saying ...

However, I have thought about that a little. I'm planning on adding in FO light (specifically the "laser" coming from the PEQ-4) in some places to try and recreate those bright spots.

I do agree though that my color contrasts are going to have to be much more drastic than on a normal figure to help get the "brights and darks" through the green film. But, as Hans pointed out, by using the clear (green) film, I'm representing the viewer looking through a pair of NVG's. Therefore everything will be "bright" for them to see. So I don't need to worry about shielding the figure from the natural light coming in from the room.

I have a feeling that this build is going to be a MONSTER!!!!

Thanks for your help aj!

I was actually thinking something very similar while lying in bed last night. I was thinking about using a clear green sheet set in a circular pattern (as if the viewer was looking through a PVS-14 themselves.)

Have you tried this technique before, Hans? How well did it work out?

If I'm thinking right, this should work out well. And the biggest plus side would be that I really would have to change that much from a regular build!

PLS let me know what you think!

Frankly, I think they best way to do it is in a shadow box.... Your lighting would need to be some shades of blue though...  Another idea is to light it normally then use a darkened piece of clear styrene for the veiwing window that masks the white lights but appears to be night through the the filter... Theater lighting gels would be the best thing to use for both the lights and the window.. 

modelchasm wrote:

I think that there would be too many thing to try and "pull off".

Yeah I can see how that would get too complex and busy to look at. I thing though if it ever makes it off the drawing board and all built up- it will definitly be one of a kind!

modelchasm wrote:

I've got a couple of Shep books, so I'll take a look through them. Good thing for me though, my trip go pushed to Tuesday morning .... A DAY TO BUILD!!! HO-RAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!

Awesome! Sounds good to me

Wow ... all great points. This is what I've been looking for in the forum. THANKS.

Psst, I see what you mean about the IR laser being "seen" by the naked eye. Guess it doesn't make sense to wire it with FO unless I'm going to be painting the whole dio green like WW2 said. I'm nto real sure how I feel about that.

As far as painting it up "at night" and then using the muzzle flash. I think that those two ideas should be kept separate. I think that there would be too many thing to try and "pull off".

I've got a couple of Shep books, so I'll take a look through them. Good thing for me though, my trip go pushed to Tuesday morning .... A DAY TO BUILD!!! HO-RAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!

I'm still just thinking on this one ... still need to focus on getting my current fig completed, .... thinking about going to a show in Live Oaks, TX later this month.

The "night" figure will have to stay on paper for a bit.

Not sure about the legality, but pictures is really the same thing as scanning I would imagin. I wouldn't post them to the public forums but instead send them via PM to avoid any leagal questions all together, thanks WW2!

There's definitly a few night scenes in there. Theres the ghosts of the civil war on with little FO as stars and there's a copy of a painting I think something along the lines of this one- link??

And also some sci-fi stuff like an ogre and a girl in a swamp and the classic headless horseman scene. Maybe more- I really liked all the mirror stuff with ghosts- that was always sweet.

psstoff995 wrote:

I really wish I had that Shep book- it's back home too- my brother has an account on this forum, I'll get him to scan the pages that go over the shadow boxes- I know it sounds kinda so so at first but if you look at the results I think you might go for it- it almost turns the model into a 3D painting, you can get some pretty dramatic effects- and not JUST with the post-photography

I have the book, if I have time tomorrow (school and hockey ugh) then I will take a couple pictures of the pages and post them here. I thought that scanning them was illegal or something but I could be wrong. If I get a chance I'll take the pictures. I think there might even be a night scene in there too but I'll check tomorrow.

David