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Most historically significant naval battles???

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  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Portsmouth, RI
Posted by searat12 on Wednesday, September 17, 2008 9:43 AM

But of course, the flip side of this is also true, in that if Yamamoto had conducted his operations (1941-1943) with an idea of actually winning, there really was no technical reason he could not have done so (i.e, inflict significant enough damage to achieve control of the Pacific long enough to fortify and secure the Japanese gains).

It's nice to think that the US, or other countries when attacked are willing to 'fight to the death,' but in fact the opposite is usually true.  How many nations in the 20th century have 'fought to the death' when they have had really significant defeats?  I can only think of the Soviet Union under attack by Germany, and that was a very close-run thing!  WW1? Ended by armistice despite millions of deaths.  Korea?  Ceasefire  Vietnam?  Ceasefire.  First Gulf War?  Ceasefire.  Even the terrible struggles between the Israelis and Arabs all ended in negotiated ceasefires.  Given this historical fact, why would you think the US would be any different?

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, September 17, 2008 10:56 AM
 searat12 wrote:

But of course, the flip side of this is also true, in that if Yamamoto had conducted his operations (1941-1943) with an idea of actually winning, there really was no technical reason he could not have done so (i.e, inflict significant enough damage to achieve control of the Pacific long enough to fortify and secure the Japanese gains).

It's nice to think that the US, or other countries when attacked are willing to 'fight to the death,' but in fact the opposite is usually true.  How many nations in the 20th century have 'fought to the death' when they have had really significant defeats?  I can only think of the Soviet Union under attack by Germany, and that was a very close-run thing!  WW1? Ended by armistice despite millions of deaths.  Korea?  Ceasefire  Vietnam?  Ceasefire.  First Gulf War?  Ceasefire.  Even the terrible struggles between the Israelis and Arabs all ended in negotiated ceasefires.  Given this historical fact, why would you think the US would be any different?

Because the loss of three carriers and a few thousand dead isn't "fighting to the death"...
  • Member since
    June 2007
Posted by squeakie on Wednesday, September 17, 2008 11:12 AM
 Mansteins revenge wrote:
 searat12 wrote:

But of course, the flip side of this is also true, in that if Yamamoto had conducted his operations (1941-1943) with an idea of actually winning, there really was no technical reason he could not have done so (i.e, inflict significant enough damage to achieve control of the Pacific long enough to fortify and secure the Japanese gains).

It's nice to think that the US, or other countries when attacked are willing to 'fight to the death,' but in fact the opposite is usually true.  How many nations in the 20th century have 'fought to the death' when they have had really significant defeats?  I can only think of the Soviet Union under attack by Germany, and that was a very close-run thing!  WW1? Ended by armistice despite millions of deaths.  Korea?  Ceasefire  Vietnam?  Ceasefire.  First Gulf War?  Ceasefire.  Even the terrible struggles between the Israelis and Arabs all ended in negotiated ceasefires.  Given this historical fact, why would you think the US would be any different?

Because the loss of three carriers and a few thousand dead isn't "fighting to the death"...

to avoid a trip to the woodshed for not being nice, I'm going to let this one rest

gary

  • Member since
    June 2007
Posted by squeakie on Wednesday, September 17, 2008 11:43 AM
 JMart wrote:

I would have to agree with Prof Tilley's assessment - basically, a battle must have profound and long-lasting strategic effects in order to be "significant". Of course, several mentioned in here fullfill that criteria to some extent:

- Spanish Armada inasmuch as the 'expedition" basically bankrupted Felipe II (Phillip) court and marked the start of England as a world power.

- Ironclads - made wooded ships obsolete in one day.

- Jutland - actually showed the foolishness of massive capital ship navies, both tactically and economic.

- Battle of the Atlantic; all four years - The only realistic way the Axis could have made GB bow out of the war.

- Malta convoys - yes, malta convoys in WW2. Why? If Malta had not been re-supplied, GB/allies would not have been able to stop Rommel from reaching the oil fields of the Middle East. Read the great book "At all Costs" by Moses (the author, not the prophet).

- The strategic submarine - not a "battle", but basically assured MADD (pun intended), keeping the cold war, well, cold.

The Age of Sail? Trafalgar/Nelson? Great stories, gorgeous ships.... and (at most) a major nuisance to Napoleon's land campaign.

Battles for colonies? more significant... just look at latin american countries, who speaks portuguese, who speaks spanish? Many times depended on which country (Portugal/Spain) won some obscure battle somewhere... Take Puerto Rico...Spanish colony, then took over my Sir Francis Drake (almost) and the Dutch (till dysentery and malaria killed them all).,,,then passes to the US in 1898. All because some (relatively) minor skirmishes and naval actions. Argentina could have been portuguese, Brazil could have been spaniard..... what if??

As for Midway...sorry, a great battle, but would not have changed the outcome of the war (my definition of "significant" battle). Face it, Japan "lost" the war the momment the first bomb fell on PH. Even if IJN would have made it to Hawaii, no historian has ever suggested that the US would not have done anything and everything possible to get it back. Losing "our" flattops in Midway would have delayed the inevitable by several months, max. Just look at the massive sea fleets the US had on the Pacific in late 44... dozens of flattops, hundreds of planes (of much higher quality than the IJN/IJA), etc etc.

The "What If" series (if you dont have it yet), has been re-packaged in one volume, Robert Cowley is the editor. Very VERY highly reccomended!

your comments on the Malta convoys rings a bell. There is a strong military theory that if the Germans had have taken Malta at whatever cost they would have controlled the entire Mediterranean. With controll of the Mediterranean they would have been able to take all of North Africa, and thus create an air umbrella that would have reached far into the Atlantic Ocean. This with the Palistenians on there side anyway would have gave them an endless supply of oil that would have been almost completely out of reach from our four engined bombers.

    Airpower was what won the Battle Of The Atlantic. Add this with launching a Liberty Ship every three days spelled doom for the Nazis. The Germans couldn't put a submarine out to sea as fast as we were building ships.

    Tying in with the previous paragraph, one needs to look at what was going on in the ship building yards on the mainland. We laid down 21 Essex Class carriers alone! And then add a large quantity of smaller escort carriers to this number. We were building them faster than the Japanese and Germans could even begin to deal with them. You knock out a carrier, and it was replaced with two! Just like the Russians building T 34 tanks!

    I put myself on your side of the street sir, and confer with everything in your post

gary

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: EG48
Posted by Tracy White on Wednesday, September 17, 2008 11:54 AM

This thread is starting to make my head hurt.

Searat; where are you getting that Cordell Hull knew in advance that Pearl Harbor was going to be attacked?

There seems to be this desire to believe that the US had this glass jaw that would cause us to give up if we had lost at Midway. We took a larger hit at Pearl psychologically than we would have if we'd lost all of the carriers we'd thrown in to Midway. Even if we had lost Enterprise and Hornet as well as Yorktown, Saratoga was already heading back to Pearl when Midway happened and Wasp was just leaving for the Pacific.

There is a big difference between winning at Midway and taking over the Hawaiian Islands. Japan did not want to occupy the Hawaiian islands, and Japan did not want to attack the US fleet in Pearl Harbor; Yamamoto campaigned strongly for the attack and overcame much internal opposition to it. Japan was after the natural resources  in the Dutch East Indies and Philippines and only attacked Hawaii to get to the US fleet.

Japan had actually studied the logistics of an occupation and I posted some information about that here. Taking Hawaii was beyond Japan's abilities, and then to take Hawaii and actively patrol with a large carrier force beyond Hawaii would be a flat-out day dream. This whole notion that Japan could have run the US back to the western coasts borders on ludicrous. Their carriers were worn out by the time Midway happened and they did not have the logistical abilities for power projection past Midway, even for midway itself if you consider the long term.

A comment for those who have called the US action at Midway brilliant... Check out "Shattered Sword"  if you have not already.

 

Tracy White Researcher@Large

  • Member since
    March 2004
  • From: Spartanburg, SC
Posted by subfixer on Wednesday, September 17, 2008 1:58 PM
 Tracy White wrote:

This thread is starting to make my head hurt.

Searat; where are you getting that Cordell Hull knew in advance that Pearl Harbor was going to be attacked?

There seems to be this desire to believe that the US had this glass jaw that would cause us to give up if we had lost at Midway. We took a larger hit at Pearl psychologically than we would have if we'd lost all of the carriers we'd thrown in to Midway. Even if we had lost Enterprise and Hornet as well as Yorktown, Saratoga was already heading back to Pearl when Midway happened and Wasp was just leaving for the Pacific.

There is a big difference between winning at Midway and taking over the Hawaiian Islands. Japan did not want to occupy the Hawaiian islands, and Japan did not want to attack the US fleet in Pearl Harbor; Yamamoto campaigned strongly for the attack and overcame much internal opposition to it. Japan was after the natural resources  in the Dutch East Indies and Philippines and only attacked Hawaii to get to the US fleet.

Japan had actually studied the logistics of an occupation and I posted some information about that here. Taking Hawaii was beyond Japan's abilities, and then to take Hawaii and actively patrol with a large carrier force beyond Hawaii would be a flat-out day dream. This whole notion that Japan could have run the US back to the western coasts borders on ludicrous. Their carriers were worn out by the time Midway happened and they did not have the logistical abilities for power projection past Midway, even for midway itself if you consider the long term.

A comment for those who have called the US action at Midway brilliant... Check out "Shattered Sword"  if you have not already.

 

      The "Conspiracy Theory" syndrome runs deep.

And yes, Shattered Sword is a very good book and I recommmend it to everyone.

I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, September 17, 2008 2:24 PM
 squeakie wrote:
 JMart wrote:

I would have to agree with Prof Tilley's assessment - basically, a battle must have profound and long-lasting strategic effects in order to be "significant". Of course, several mentioned in here fullfill that criteria to some extent:

- Spanish Armada inasmuch as the 'expedition" basically bankrupted Felipe II (Phillip) court and marked the start of England as a world power.

- Ironclads - made wooded ships obsolete in one day.

- Jutland - actually showed the foolishness of massive capital ship navies, both tactically and economic.

- Battle of the Atlantic; all four years - The only realistic way the Axis could have made GB bow out of the war.

- Malta convoys - yes, malta convoys in WW2. Why? If Malta had not been re-supplied, GB/allies would not have been able to stop Rommel from reaching the oil fields of the Middle East. Read the great book "At all Costs" by Moses (the author, not the prophet).

- The strategic submarine - not a "battle", but basically assured MADD (pun intended), keeping the cold war, well, cold.

The Age of Sail? Trafalgar/Nelson? Great stories, gorgeous ships.... and (at most) a major nuisance to Napoleon's land campaign.

Battles for colonies? more significant... just look at latin american countries, who speaks portuguese, who speaks spanish? Many times depended on which country (Portugal/Spain) won some obscure battle somewhere... Take Puerto Rico...Spanish colony, then took over my Sir Francis Drake (almost) and the Dutch (till dysentery and malaria killed them all).,,,then passes to the US in 1898. All because some (relatively) minor skirmishes and naval actions. Argentina could have been portuguese, Brazil could have been spaniard..... what if??

As for Midway...sorry, a great battle, but would not have changed the outcome of the war (my definition of "significant" battle). Face it, Japan "lost" the war the momment the first bomb fell on PH. Even if IJN would have made it to Hawaii, no historian has ever suggested that the US would not have done anything and everything possible to get it back. Losing "our" flattops in Midway would have delayed the inevitable by several months, max. Just look at the massive sea fleets the US had on the Pacific in late 44... dozens of flattops, hundreds of planes (of much higher quality than the IJN/IJA), etc etc.

The "What If" series (if you dont have it yet), has been re-packaged in one volume, Robert Cowley is the editor. Very VERY highly reccomended!

your comments on the Malta convoys rings a bell. There is a strong military theory that if the Germans had have taken Malta at whatever cost they would have controlled the entire Mediterranean. With controll of the Mediterranean they would have been able to take all of North Africa, and thus create an air umbrella that would have reached far into the Atlantic Ocean. This with the Palistenians on there side anyway would have gave them an endless supply of oil that would have been almost completely out of reach from our four engined bombers.

    Airpower was what won the Battle Of The Atlantic. Add this with launching a Liberty Ship every three days spelled doom for the Nazis. The Germans couldn't put a submarine out to sea as fast as we were building ships.

    Tying in with the previous paragraph, one needs to look at what was going on in the ship building yards on the mainland. We laid down 21 Essex Class carriers alone! And then add a large quantity of smaller escort carriers to this number. We were building them faster than the Japanese and Germans could even begin to deal with them. You knock out a carrier, and it was replaced with two! Just like the Russians building T 34 tanks!

    I put myself on your side of the street sir, and confer with everything in your post

gary

Gary, I been fighting the "good" fight about Midway this entire thread---throw a little of your support this way as well, my friend...I built the street!!! LOL
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, September 17, 2008 2:26 PM
 subfixer wrote:
 Tracy White wrote:

This thread is starting to make my head hurt.

Searat; where are you getting that Cordell Hull knew in advance that Pearl Harbor was going to be attacked?

There seems to be this desire to believe that the US had this glass jaw that would cause us to give up if we had lost at Midway. We took a larger hit at Pearl psychologically than we would have if we'd lost all of the carriers we'd thrown in to Midway. Even if we had lost Enterprise and Hornet as well as Yorktown, Saratoga was already heading back to Pearl when Midway happened and Wasp was just leaving for the Pacific.

There is a big difference between winning at Midway and taking over the Hawaiian Islands. Japan did not want to occupy the Hawaiian islands, and Japan did not want to attack the US fleet in Pearl Harbor; Yamamoto campaigned strongly for the attack and overcame much internal opposition to it. Japan was after the natural resources  in the Dutch East Indies and Philippines and only attacked Hawaii to get to the US fleet.

Japan had actually studied the logistics of an occupation and I posted some information about that here. Taking Hawaii was beyond Japan's abilities, and then to take Hawaii and actively patrol with a large carrier force beyond Hawaii would be a flat-out day dream. This whole notion that Japan could have run the US back to the western coasts borders on ludicrous. Their carriers were worn out by the time Midway happened and they did not have the logistical abilities for power projection past Midway, even for midway itself if you consider the long term.

A comment for those who have called the US action at Midway brilliant... Check out "Shattered Sword"  if you have not already.

 

      The "Conspiracy Theory" syndrome runs deep.

And yes, Shattered Sword is a very good book and I recommmend it to everyone.

'bout time I got some help on this one !!! Where you guys been...???
  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: EG48
Posted by Tracy White on Wednesday, September 17, 2008 4:03 PM

Tracy White Researcher@Large

  • Member since
    December 2006
Posted by woodburner on Wednesday, September 17, 2008 4:26 PM

This may not even qualify as a historically significant naval battle in the traditional sense, but . . that may be the point.   The attack on this commercial ship in May 1915 by a submarine was one of many similar events that effectively ended traditional concepts of warfare.   

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Carmel, CA
Posted by bondoman on Wednesday, September 17, 2008 4:37 PM

Thats a good point, even though it was a one sided affair.

Do you have a connection with the Lusitania?

  • Member since
    December 2006
Posted by woodburner on Wednesday, September 17, 2008 5:51 PM
I just have an appreciation of the four stackers. There is a compelling evolution of technology and form evident in their lines. At some point I'd like to build a paper model of the first of them, Kaiser Wilhelm der Grosse of 1897.

Jim
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, September 17, 2008 6:41 PM
 squeakie wrote:
 Mansteins revenge wrote:
 searat12 wrote:

But of course, the flip side of this is also true, in that if Yamamoto had conducted his operations (1941-1943) with an idea of actually winning, there really was no technical reason he could not have done so (i.e, inflict significant enough damage to achieve control of the Pacific long enough to fortify and secure the Japanese gains).

It's nice to think that the US, or other countries when attacked are willing to 'fight to the death,' but in fact the opposite is usually true.  How many nations in the 20th century have 'fought to the death' when they have had really significant defeats?  I can only think of the Soviet Union under attack by Germany, and that was a very close-run thing!  WW1? Ended by armistice despite millions of deaths.  Korea?  Ceasefire  Vietnam?  Ceasefire.  First Gulf War?  Ceasefire.  Even the terrible struggles between the Israelis and Arabs all ended in negotiated ceasefires.  Given this historical fact, why would you think the US would be any different?

Because the loss of three carriers and a few thousand dead isn't "fighting to the death"...

to avoid a trip to the woodshed for not being nice, I'm going to let this one rest

gary

From "Midway, 1942" by Mark Healy and David Chandler (start at the 3rd para down: "What if..."):

 

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: 41 Degrees 52.4 minutes North; 72 Degrees 7.3 minutes West
Posted by bbrowniii on Wednesday, September 17, 2008 7:02 PM
 Mansteins revenge wrote:
 squeakie wrote:
 Mansteins revenge wrote:
 searat12 wrote:

But of course, the flip side of this is also true, in that if Yamamoto had conducted his operations (1941-1943) with an idea of actually winning, there really was no technical reason he could not have done so (i.e, inflict significant enough damage to achieve control of the Pacific long enough to fortify and secure the Japanese gains).

It's nice to think that the US, or other countries when attacked are willing to 'fight to the death,' but in fact the opposite is usually true.  How many nations in the 20th century have 'fought to the death' when they have had really significant defeats?  I can only think of the Soviet Union under attack by Germany, and that was a very close-run thing!  WW1? Ended by armistice despite millions of deaths.  Korea?  Ceasefire  Vietnam?  Ceasefire.  First Gulf War?  Ceasefire.  Even the terrible struggles between the Israelis and Arabs all ended in negotiated ceasefires.  Given this historical fact, why would you think the US would be any different?

Because the loss of three carriers and a few thousand dead isn't "fighting to the death"...

to avoid a trip to the woodshed for not being nice, I'm going to let this one rest

gary

From "Midway, 1942" by Mark Healy and David Chandler (start at the 3rd para down: "What if..."):

 

Manny, pretty interesting stuff... might have to revise my original thesis after I read this whole thing.... Wink [;)], but first I gotta read the whole thing to see what he bases his opinions on, because you know what they say about opinions... Cool [8D]

By the way (and completely off topic) there is an interesting corollary there between how the attack on Pearl politically unified the US in a way no event had before and how the Sept 11 attacks did the same thing... at least for awhile...

'All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing' - Edmund Burke (1770 ??)

 

  • Member since
    June 2007
Posted by squeakie on Wednesday, September 17, 2008 7:21 PM
 Mansteins revenge wrote:
 squeakie wrote:
 JMart wrote:

I would have to agree with Prof Tilley's assessment - basically, a battle must have profound and long-lasting strategic effects in order to be "significant". Of course, several mentioned in here fullfill that criteria to some extent:

- Spanish Armada inasmuch as the 'expedition" basically bankrupted Felipe II (Phillip) court and marked the start of England as a world power.

- Ironclads - made wooded ships obsolete in one day.

- Jutland - actually showed the foolishness of massive capital ship navies, both tactically and economic.

- Battle of the Atlantic; all four years - The only realistic way the Axis could have made GB bow out of the war.

- Malta convoys - yes, malta convoys in WW2. Why? If Malta had not been re-supplied, GB/allies would not have been able to stop Rommel from reaching the oil fields of the Middle East. Read the great book "At all Costs" by Moses (the author, not the prophet).

- The strategic submarine - not a "battle", but basically assured MADD (pun intended), keeping the cold war, well, cold.

The Age of Sail? Trafalgar/Nelson? Great stories, gorgeous ships.... and (at most) a major nuisance to Napoleon's land campaign.

Battles for colonies? more significant... just look at latin american countries, who speaks portuguese, who speaks spanish? Many times depended on which country (Portugal/Spain) won some obscure battle somewhere... Take Puerto Rico...Spanish colony, then took over my Sir Francis Drake (almost) and the Dutch (till dysentery and malaria killed them all).,,,then passes to the US in 1898. All because some (relatively) minor skirmishes and naval actions. Argentina could have been portuguese, Brazil could have been spaniard..... what if??

As for Midway...sorry, a great battle, but would not have changed the outcome of the war (my definition of "significant" battle). Face it, Japan "lost" the war the momment the first bomb fell on PH. Even if IJN would have made it to Hawaii, no historian has ever suggested that the US would not have done anything and everything possible to get it back. Losing "our" flattops in Midway would have delayed the inevitable by several months, max. Just look at the massive sea fleets the US had on the Pacific in late 44... dozens of flattops, hundreds of planes (of much higher quality than the IJN/IJA), etc etc.

The "What If" series (if you dont have it yet), has been re-packaged in one volume, Robert Cowley is the editor. Very VERY highly reccomended!

your comments on the Malta convoys rings a bell. There is a strong military theory that if the Germans had have taken Malta at whatever cost they would have controlled the entire Mediterranean. With controll of the Mediterranean they would have been able to take all of North Africa, and thus create an air umbrella that would have reached far into the Atlantic Ocean. This with the Palistenians on there side anyway would have gave them an endless supply of oil that would have been almost completely out of reach from our four engined bombers.

    Airpower was what won the Battle Of The Atlantic. Add this with launching a Liberty Ship every three days spelled doom for the Nazis. The Germans couldn't put a submarine out to sea as fast as we were building ships.

    Tying in with the previous paragraph, one needs to look at what was going on in the ship building yards on the mainland. We laid down 21 Essex Class carriers alone! And then add a large quantity of smaller escort carriers to this number. We were building them faster than the Japanese and Germans could even begin to deal with them. You knock out a carrier, and it was replaced with two! Just like the Russians building T 34 tanks!

    I put myself on your side of the street sir, and confer with everything in your post

gary

Gary, I been fighting the "good" fight about Midway this entire thread---throw a little of your support this way as well, my friend...I built the street!!! LOL

the stratigic location of Midway is something that has to be taken into thought here. But not in Japan's favor. The problem Japan and Germany both had when they entered WWII was that neither of the two possed a true long range bomber that could also carry a heavy load out. But the U.S. and Great Britian did. The Japanese probably didn't have anything that was good for much more than 700 miles of radius (strait line and then back). So I'm doubting they could have done much good even if they were to have held the island for any length of time (I'll come back on this range thing in another post as the data is downstairs).

    What might have worked well for the Japanese with Midway in their hands was a good forward operating base for their submarines (remember the Japanese did have very good ones) even they they often were looked down upon by the Japanese hiarchy. To take Midway and hold it they would have had to have three carriers in the area all the time. What did they have? Seven maybe? But in taking Midway it would have tied up a large U.S. fleet to that area. Still it was a loose loose deal. And then Midway was under the U.S. B17 umbrella with the "F" model on the way let alone B-24's.

    It would have served Japan's best interest to secure Samoa and Fiji; thus cutting off the vital trade routs to Australia. That ment everything would have to come in from the east making Guadalcanal an even more important strong point.

    As great a battle as Midway was, it would have gone on and on for the Japanese. And I once again say I doubt they could have held it for any length of time. It was just too far out, and really not in their best interests (even though they still wanted to take it. If they'd have moved on it in January 1942 they might have got the job done, but could they hold onto it? I'd say no. What was most important in the Battle of Midway was they loss of carriers and even more importantly the loss of seasoned pilots. We could have lived with the loss of all the carriers we had there when one looks at what was going on in the shipyards.

    What the Japanese really needed at the time was a bomber on the four engined scale that had a range of about 2,000 miles carrying a 5,000lb. loadout (samething for Hitler too). They never used their submarines to their best potential, and that alone was problematic. Never tried to lay down more carriers till it was too late. Yet the Japanese were kinda hung up on the use of big capital ships (they did build pretty good ones).

   Was the Battle of Midway a total success for the Allies? Yes! They almost couldn't loose. We were in the process of building the single largest carrier force ever seen by man. Look at the loss of the carriers at Midway and the Coral Sea alone (both sides). Now project those losses ahead nine months. Japan was like a guy drowning and gasping for air after that.

    What the Japanese really failed at was in their Indo-China Campaign (now you must remember those four troop transports that were sunk in the Java Sea Battle), and New Guinea. They just never really secured Burma and made that all important move into Pakistan. By doing so China would have been theirs for the taking (add that needed four engine heavy bomber to the mix as well). I credit "Vinegar Joe Stillwell" with as much todo with the Pacific victory as any one other campaign just with the way he tied the Japanese up.

    But as much as we all have posted about the Midway campaign, Iwo Jima was by far the most important. After we took Iwo the Japanese heartland was totally doomed, and the hop to Osaka was just an easy jaunt (not all that easy but now they had a P-51 escort)

just some random thoughts on the subject, but may be of some importance.

    Here's another thought to ponder on this naval warfare subject:

     I'm gonna move us to the otherside of the planet a bit, so bare with me. In WWII the most advanced submarine design was the Type XXI Uboat by a wide margine. It was not without many problems and of course there was a well known quality issue. What if the Germans had have gotten it right, and in mass production in early 1944? Would the anti-submarine warfare as we knew it have gone south? This boat was much quieter, faster, and far more capable than the Type VII or IX. This and the Essex class carrier were probably the most signifiant ships produced in WWII.

gary

  • Member since
    June 2007
Posted by squeakie on Wednesday, September 17, 2008 7:23 PM
 bondoman wrote:

Thats a good point, even though it was a one sided affair.

Do you have a connection with the Lusitania?

the only problem with that is the ship was not an altogether commercial vessel as it was also carrying arms to Britian

gary

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Monterey Bay, CA
Posted by schoonerbumm on Thursday, September 18, 2008 12:26 AM

my two cents...

After thirty years of historical reading, war gaming and working as a chief engineer on a real weapon system used by the US Navy, I offer my sage wisdom, and free advice (remember, you get what you pay for and everyone is entitled to my opinions).

My view of significance in history is based on... what if the outcome of the battle had been different? Would anything have ultimately changed? 

From that persepective, I believe that only two BATTLES really matter in American history: the battle of Salamis and the Battle of the Virginia Capes. Other than these two actions, Naval BATTLES have had limited inluence on historical outcomes.  

Without Themosticles's victory at Salamis, we'd all be making our morning prayers facing Mecca. The seed of western culture, the European tradition and the concept of democracy would have been crushed.

By medieval times, the European, and middle eastern economies were as dependent on German silver and the Hanseatic ports as control of the Med. Control of the Med was about profitability, not survival.

The Spanish Armada had already failed in its mission with its inability to offload troops from the Netherlands. Our protestant English heritage would remain protestant.

If Trafalgar had been a draw or a French victory, England would still never have been invaded, and Napolean would still have met his demise in a land campaign, in Russia.

The American super frigates created a great naval tradition and had great psychological impact, but ultimately were effectively neutralized and militarily insignificant in the outcome of the War of 1812.

If the Monitor and Virginia hadn't have slugged it out, some other ironclads would have. Regardless, no major strategic or political issue was or would have been resolved. Both sides had ironclads.

Tsushima was a symbolic victory, but ultimately did not change the political map. Forty years later, the Russians still had a significant hand in the western Pacific.

If the Japanese had been victorious at Midway or Leyte Gulf, the Americans would still have triumphed in the late 1940's after Hitler had been crushed (remember, the Battle of the Bulge had more American causualties than the entire Pacific theater). The atomic bomb was the ultimate discriminator against the kamikaze, not naval power.

The victory off Yorktown was a bruising POLITICAL defeat to the British ruling class, helping the cause of American Independence. But even its true significance, like Salamis, was deciding the ultimate outcome of a land campaign.

Now, Naval CAMPAIGNS are a different story. The cummulative effect of privateers in the War of 1812, the Union blockade of the Confederacy, U-boat wars in the Atlantic and the Pacific carrier campaign are examples that had incredible significance in that they not only affected political outcomes, but influenced naval doctrine for decades. That is a different discussion...

 

  

 

 

Alan

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." Benjamin Franklin

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Portsmouth, RI
Posted by searat12 on Thursday, September 18, 2008 7:37 AM

All very good points, Schoonerbumm!

I will make just a couple last points about Midway, and then leave it alone (everybody gets to have their own opinion in a 'what if' contest!).

It is important to remember that most, if not all the references that have been quoted by various members were written by Americans after the war, not Japanese, and not by actual participants.  Therefore, most of this stuff is heavily laced with a lot of self-righteous propaganda that conveniently ignores an awful lot of facts.  As what I have proposed appears to be controversial (at least!), it might worth remembering that this proposition was developed using Japanese sources, as well as American sources, and by participants, not after-the-fact academics.  As you might imagine, the picture is very different!  Two excellent sources are 'The Reluctant Admiral' by Hiroki Agawa (a Japanese Intelligence officer in WW2), and 'Japanese Destroyer Captain,' by Tameichi Hara (a destroyer Captain throughout the Pacific war with a lot of good points to make about how operations were conducted).

These two books, along with a number of others, illustrate most of the points I have been trying to make;  Yamamoto knew Japan could not fight a long war with the US, and argued very strongly against any such undertaking.  But once he had been over-ruled by the Army, he came up with the best plan he could.  And it was quite a good plan!  But for some reason (and I have speculated that espionage and sabotage had a large part in this), he did not follow his own plans, which ensured they would fail.

Both Pearl Harbor and Midway are classic examples of this failure, intended or not.  It is important when looking at Midway not to look at this battle in isolation.  Yes, the loss of three US carriers and a few thousand men by itself would not have 'knocked the US out of the war.'  But that position ignores all that had led up to that point, with the fall of Singapore, the fall of the Phillipines, and the huge losses that entailed.  The loss of Java, Malaysia, Thailand, Indonesia, etc, etc, the destruction of the ABDA naval forces, and on and on, and all within just a few months meant cumulative losses to the US and the allies of tens of thousands of soldiers, sailors and airmen, dozens of ships (including a number of carriers and battleships), hundreds and hundreds of aircraft, and at the same time, the Germans were rampaging all over Europe, North Africa and the Med.  While the Coral Sea action gave a bit of encouragement, it was purchased at terrible cost, and one more big loss might well have been catastrophic for allied morale in the Pacific.

Yes, the US was cranking out carriers and other ships as fast as possible, but to divert all of these, or even the major portion to an apparently losing campaign in the Pacific, when the Atlantic convoys were critical for the survival of not just the UK, but the Soviet Union as well, begs the question of what might have resulted in Europe if this did in fact happen.  The loss of the US carriers at Midway could have led to Hawaii becoming rapidly untenable for US logistics, as once such things as docks, machine shops, cranes, etc are destroyed, it is pretty easy to prevent them from being rebuilt.  And without Hawaii, and without the Panama canal, the logistics behind putting an American fleet in combat operations in the Pacific becomes tenuous in the extreme, if not impossible.  In fact, there is a very good argument that without the facilities at Pearl Harbor, most of the US ships that were damaged in the various battles would never have returned to fight another day.

All this points to a very grim conclusion, and that is the political pressures to sign up to at least a temporary peace with Japan would have been enormous if Midway had been lost (and that pressure would have been applied not just by elements within the US government, but by our allies as well).  At the end of the day, the rationalisation goes something like this;  None of the territories lost in the Pacific could be truly considered 'US soil,' so just what have we actually 'lost' here?  Politicians are generally pragmatic, and (as you should understand by now!) can rationalize and spin just about anything to make it look favorable, and usually do (and the same goes for many academics, I might add!).  Roosevelt and Churchill gave away Eastern Europe to the Soviets, when it was convenient and necessary to do so, and under the right circumstances, a temporary peace or ceasefire with the Japanese was well within possibility, given another huge loss..... Here endeth the lesson.......

 

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, September 18, 2008 9:46 AM
 schoonerbumm wrote:

my two cents...

After thirty years of historical reading, war gaming and working as a chief engineer on a real weapon system used by the US Navy, I offer my sage wisdom, and free advice (remember, you get what you pay for and everyone is entitled to my opinions).

My view of significance in history is based on... what if the outcome of the battle had been different? Would anything have ultimately changed? 

From that persepective, I believe that only two BATTLES really matter in American history: the battle of Salamis and the Battle of the Virginia Capes. Other than these two actions, Naval BATTLES have had limited inluence on historical outcomes.  

Without Themosticles's victory at Salamis, we'd all be making our morning prayers facing Mecca. The seed of western culture, the European tradition and the concept of democracy would have been crushed.

By medieval times, the European, and middle eastern economies were as dependent on German silver and the Hanseatic ports as control of the Med. Control of the Med was about profitability, not survival.

The Spanish Armada had already failed in its mission with its inability to offload troops from the Netherlands. Our protestant English heritage would remain protestant.

If Trafalgar had been a draw or a French victory, England would still never have been invaded, and Napolean would still have met his demise in a land campaign, in Russia.

The American super frigates created a great naval tradition and had great psychological impact, but ultimately were effectively neutralized and militarily insignificant in the outcome of the War of 1812.

If the Monitor and Virginia hadn't have slugged it out, some other ironclads would have. Regardless, no major strategic or political issue was or would have been resolved. Both sides had ironclads.

Tsushima was a symbolic victory, but ultimately did not change the political map. Forty years later, the Russians still had a significant hand in the western Pacific.

If the Japanese had been victorious at Midway or Leyte Gulf, the Americans would still have triumphed in the late 1940's after Hitler had been crushed (remember, the Battle of the Bulge had more American causualties than the entire Pacific theater). The atomic bomb was the ultimate discriminator against the kamikaze, not naval power.

The victory off Yorktown was a bruising POLITICAL defeat to the British ruling class, helping the cause of American Independence. But even its true significance, like Salamis, was deciding the ultimate outcome of a land campaign.

Now, Naval CAMPAIGNS are a different story. The cummulative effect of privateers in the War of 1812, the Union blockade of the Confederacy, U-boat wars in the Atlantic and the Pacific carrier campaign are examples that had incredible significance in that they not only affected political outcomes, but influenced naval doctrine for decades. That is a different discussion...

 

  

 

 

Battle of the Virginia Capes??? Not familar w/ this one???
  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Monterey Bay, CA
Posted by schoonerbumm on Thursday, September 18, 2008 9:59 AM
aka "Battle of the Chesapeake", sealed Cornwallis's fate at Yorktown.

Alan

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." Benjamin Franklin

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, September 18, 2008 10:03 AM
 schoonerbumm wrote:
aka "Battle of the Chesapeake", sealed Cornwallis's fate at Yorktown.
Ahhhhhh, got 'ya...very good nominee, IMO, and one that is seldom discussed, as the seige and subsequent land surrender was far more glamorous...
  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Portsmouth, RI
Posted by searat12 on Thursday, September 18, 2008 10:22 AM
Yup, the Battle of the Chesapeake is an excellent choice!  Were it not for the French Navy, Cornwallis would have escaped back to New York, and the war might have dragged on for another year or more.......
  • Member since
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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, September 18, 2008 3:20 PM
 searat12 wrote:
Yup, the Battle of the Chesapeake is an excellent choice!  Were it not for the French Navy, Cornwallis would have escaped back to New York, and the war might have dragged on for another year or more.......
Well then, based on that, it might not be as significant as I thought (or as the poster suggested)--the war dragging on one more year is probably not that significat in terms of the entire length of the Revolutionary War...a loss at Midway probably would have delayed VJ day more than a year...
  • Member since
    June 2007
Posted by squeakie on Thursday, September 18, 2008 6:05 PM

 Mansteins revenge wrote:
 searat12 wrote:
Yup, the Battle of the Chesapeake is an excellent choice!  Were it not for the French Navy, Cornwallis would have escaped back to New York, and the war might have dragged on for another year or more.......
Well then, based on that, it might not be as significant as I thought (or as the poster suggested)--the war dragging on one more year is probably not that significat in terms of the entire length of the Revolutionary War...a loss at Midway probably would have delayed VJ day more than a year...

I gave some serious thought to The Battle Of The Chesapeak in my original post on this subject, but also thought about the naval battles on Lake Champlain and the other Great lakes. I must confess that I don't know enough about the Revolutionary War to voice much of an opinion. I should know much more as my ancestors were heavilly involved right from the getgo in Virginia.

    Back on the Battle Of Midway a minute. What most of us seem to have forgotten is that the single biggest element in the victory at Midway was not the sinking of the carriers, but the unreplaceable loss of all those seasoned pilots. We saw the samething with Germany in Europe. They each had plenty of planes, but nobody to fly them. Then to compound the situation the Japanese with the loss of their front line carriers also didn't really have all the means to replace them like we did. We were laying down keels about as fast as they could pour the iron!

    Now I need to make a slight revision to an earlier post about what would happen should the Japanese have won the Battle Of Midway. If you all will remember I said that their umbrella was probably less than 800 miles at best, but I was wrong. The Japanese Betty had a range of well over 2,200 miles carrying a 3,000lb. bomb load. So technicaly they could have done that part as the range of our carrier based aircraft would have put our ships in that umbrella to make a strike on Midway. Maybe the long range Mustangs that came into service later escorting B-17's out of Hawaii might have been able to make an effective strike on Midway. Still the island of Midway was not all that important to the Japanese in a stratigic sense. Nothing like a good airbase in the Marianas, Sumatra or Guadalcanal. It was their standing chance to knock out the Pacific Fleet, and they failed. In this case the "checkmate" goes with the U.S. Pacific Fleet. And as I once said proving out that the deep south Pacific campaign as well as the south west Pacific campaigns were the biggies.

    What would have happened if those four troop ships and their equipment had made it ashore instead of being lost in the south Java Sea? Foresure Stillwell's campaign would have been many times harder. They may have been able to move into east India. The flights over the hump may not have taken place, and we couldn't have resupplied from Murmansk (remember Russia and Japan were not at war with each other). What if Japan had attacked Russia as Hitler begged them todo instead of attacking Pearl Harbor? (remember that the only reason the Russian stopped the Germans was with the Siberian divisions that were brought in from the far east.

    Another thought is that with the advent of the Japanese attacking Russia instead of the United States is that there wouldn't have been a Kursk or Karkov group build! But maube a Kazan group build instead. Maybe a second or even a third Battle Of Britian group build?

gary

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Portsmouth, RI
Posted by searat12 on Thursday, September 18, 2008 6:50 PM

Interesting thought... That said, given the technical level of Japanese Army equipment (especially armor!!), I think an attack against Russia would have been an even bigger mistake than Pearl Harbor!  Remember, MOST of the Japanese Army spent the war standing around in Manchuria, and when the Russians finally declared war against Japan, they cleaned up so quickly, it wasn't even funny (of course, the Russians had spent the previous four years fighting the mighty Wehrmacht, and the Russian tanks and troops reflected that hard-won training and capability!).....

As for the Battle of the Chesapeake, it was one of the defining moments of the Revolutionary War, and SHOULD have been a firm basis for an enduring French/American friendship, but all that went out the window with the excesses of the French Revolution...... Not only that, but was one of the few times a French fleet did a British fleet very brown indeed.......

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Monterey Bay, CA
Posted by schoonerbumm on Thursday, September 18, 2008 7:37 PM

Interesting alternate history. I don't think that the Americans could have survived another year. 

In 1781, the British were close to victory in the colonies.

 "After two years of war, French finances were all but exhausted. The Continental Army was demoralized, and in February 1781, Vergennes urged the Americans to make peace" Navies and the American Revolution

The French plan for 1781 was to evacuate their troops from North America and send them to bolster their defences in the West Indies.

The campaign that developed in 1781 was a last gasp effort that should have failed. It succeeded due to a unique opportunity afforded by two British blunders. Cornwallis's march and Rodney's looting of Saint Eustatius.

Had Conrwallis been successfully evacuated or reinforced, the British might have had a significant strategic and political victory from the subsequent abandonment of the Americans by the French. 

Alan

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." Benjamin Franklin

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, September 18, 2008 7:56 PM
 squeakie wrote:

 Mansteins revenge wrote:
 searat12 wrote:
Yup, the Battle of the Chesapeake is an excellent choice!  Were it not for the French Navy, Cornwallis would have escaped back to New York, and the war might have dragged on for another year or more.......
Well then, based on that, it might not be as significant as I thought (or as the poster suggested)--the war dragging on one more year is probably not that significat in terms of the entire length of the Revolutionary War...a loss at Midway probably would have delayed VJ day more than a year...

I gave some serious thought to The Battle Of The Chesapeak in my original post on this subject, but also thought about the naval battles on Lake Champlain and the other Great lakes. I mudt confess that I don't know enough about the Revolutionary War to voice much of an opinion. I should know much more as my ancestors were heavilly involved right from the getgo in Virginia.

    Back on the Battle Of Midway a minute. What most of us seem to have forgotten is that the single biggest element in the victory at Midway was not the sinking of the carriers, but the unreplaceable loss of all those seasoned pilots. We saw the samething with Germany in Europe. They each had plenty of planes, but nobody to fly them. Then to compound the situation the Japanese with the loss of their front line carriers also didn't really have all the means to replace them like we did. We were laying down keels about as fast as they could pour the iron!

    Now I need to make a slight revision to an earlier post about what would happen should the Japanese have won the Battle Of Midway. If you all will remember I said that their umbrella was probably less than 800 miles at best, but I was wrong. The Japanese Betty had a range of well over 2,200 miles carrying a 3,000lb. bomb load. So technicaly they could have done that part as the range of our carrier based aircraft would have put our ships in that umbrella to make a strike on Midway. Maybe the long range Mustangs that came into service later escorting B-17's out of Hawaii might have been able to make an effective strike on Midway. Still the island of Midway was not all that important to the Japanese in a stratigic sense. Nothing like a good airbase in the Marianas, Sumatra or Guadalcanal. It was their standing chance to knock out the Pacific Fleet, and they failed. In this case the "checkmate" goes with the U.S. Pacific Fleet. And as I once said proving out that the deep south Pacific campaign as well as the south west Pacific campaigns were the biggies.

    What would have happened if those four troop ships and their equipment had made it ashore instead of being lost in the south Java Sea? Foresure Stillwell's campaign would have been many times harder. They may have been able to move into east India. The flights over the hump may not have taken place, and we couldn't have resupplied from Murmansk (remember Russia and Japan were not at war with each other). What if Japan had attacked Russia as Hitler begged them todo instead of attacking Pearl Harbor? (remember that the only reason the Russian stopped the Germans was with the Siberian divisions that were brought in from the far east.

    Another thought is that with the advent of the Japanese attacking Russia instead of the United States is that there wouldn't have been a Kursk or Karkov group build! But maube a Kazan group build instead. Maybe a second or even a third Battle Of Britian group build?

gary

"(remember that the only reason the Russian stopped the Germans was with the Siberian divisions that were brought in from the far east."

Not entirely accurate...the Germans were already stopped, but it is true that the Russians used these divisions in a counterattck that pushed the Germans back a bit...even had the Siberian divisions not been available, the outcome, IMO, would have differed little...

  • Member since
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Posted by Gerarddm on Thursday, September 18, 2008 11:41 PM

Lepanto.

Period, end stop.

Gerard> WA State Current: 1/700 What-If Railgun Battlecruiser 1/700 Admiralty COURAGEOUS battlecruiser
  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Portsmouth, RI
Posted by searat12 on Friday, September 19, 2008 10:28 AM
 schoonerbumm wrote:

Interesting alternate history. I don't think that the Americans could have survived another year. 

In 1781, the British were close to victory in the colonies.

 "After two years of war, French finances were all but exhausted. The Continental Army was demoralized, and in February 1781, Vergennes urged the Americans to make peace" Navies and the American Revolution

The French plan for 1781 was to evacuate their troops from North America and send them to bolster their defences in the West Indies.

The campaign that developed in 1781 was a last gasp effort that should have failed. It succeeded due to a unique opportunity afforded by two British blunders. Cornwallis's march and Rodney's looting of Saint Eustatius.

Had Conrwallis been successfully evacuated or reinforced, the British might have had a significant strategic and political victory from the subsequent abandonment of the Americans by the French. 

Well, I'm not so sure of that either!  Yes, French finances were in a pretty bad way, but so was Britain's, and with significant French (and Spanish!) threats developing in the West Indies (De Grasse had come to the Chesapeake after a fairly successful campaign against Rodney in the West Indies), the Med, and with Suffren rampaging in Indian waters and large combined Franco Spanish fleets making strenuous (if largely ineffectual) efforts to force the Channel, Britain was facing a lot of problems of its own.  Combine that with a largely unsuccessful and costly British campaign in the South (which is why Cornwallis marched North to the Chesapeake in the first place) against an increasing professional American force, and the whole thing looked like a terrible game of 'whack a mole' to the Brits.  Certainly the French Army forces under Rochambeau and Lafayette were essential to the eventual victory of the Americans, but I don't see a lot of reasons that the Americans would have collapsed if Cornwallis had somehow escaped Yorktown.  Of course, if De Grasse had been comprehensively defeated in the West Indies before his move to the Chesapeake, rather than after, the war would have likely have gone on a fair bit longer (also it is important to remember that the British govt under Lord North was tottering by this time, and was casting about desperately for anything that might eliminate at least one of the various campaign arenas!)
  • Member since
    June 2007
Posted by squeakie on Friday, September 19, 2008 11:01 AM
 searat12 wrote:

Interesting thought... That said, given the technical level of Japanese Army equipment (especially armor!!), I think an attack against Russia would have been an even bigger mistake than Pearl Harbor!  Remember, MOST of the Japanese Army spent the war standing around in Manchuria, and when the Russians finally declared war against Japan, they cleaned up so quickly, it wasn't even funny (of course, the Russians had spent the previous four years fighting the mighty Wehrmacht, and the Russian tanks and troops reflected that hard-won training and capability!).....

As for the Battle of the Chesapeake, it was one of the defining moments of the Revolutionary War, and SHOULD have been a firm basis for an enduring French/American friendship, but all that went out the window with the excesses of the French Revolution...... Not only that, but was one of the few times a French fleet did a British fleet very brown indeed.......

think about Japan attacking the far eastern parts of Siberia from this stand point: It would have tied down the Siberian Divisions that were so much needed in the west. The U.S.A. would not have gone to war with Japan unless we had decided to make the first move, and Japan would have encircled China and moved into India. Russia's tank production was largely in the far east, and would have been in jeopardy unless they were moved again (remember they'd already been moved once before. There'd have been little if any convoys headed to Murmansk. Germany would have wintered up in Moscow, and headed off to Kazan in the late spring of the following year; thus isolating Murmansk as the final hold out. They'd have sued for peace in 1943. Japan would have all it's needed natural resources, and even more with the taking of several hundred miles of Siberia. The best thing that happened in 1941 was Hitler declaring war against the USA and Japan attacking Pearl Harbor!

gary

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