WWII historians...help!!

stikpusher wrote:

Interestingly enough, referring to Manny's statement of the earlier attacks of the morning by US forces, my take is that those strikes did more to re inforce Japanese contempt for the Americans, rather than scare them. While they did help to use op(but not wear down) the defenses, and finally divert some, most accounts I have read that quote Japanese participants seem to commonly state they were unimpressed by the skills of the US aviators.

And rightly, they shouldn't have. These crews' specialties were not in anti-shipping (except the TBF crews, but this was their first combat sortie in these aircraft). The Japanese formation did have to manuver, however, and this put them in disarray. The fact that these aircraft were land based units did influence the Japanese to arm for another attack on the island. This was a major factor in the outcome of the battle.

stikpusher wrote:

Interestingly enough, referring to Manny's statement of the earlier attacks of the morning by US forces, my take is that those strikes did more to re inforce Japanese contempt for the Americans, rather than scare them. While they did help to use op(but not wear down) the defenses, and finally divert some, most accounts I have read that quote Japanese participants seem to commonly state they were unimpressed by the skills of the US aviators.

Bondo, I think my biggest thanks to the movie was in it launching my hunger to learn about this battle ( I was 11 when I fist saw it on opening nite and I'll bet you can remember your youth of that age).

 Anyways, I would recomend three books to read on Midway to give you a good idea of the chronology of events in that battle: Incredible Victory by Walter Lord, Miracle at Midway by Gordon Prange, and Shattered Sword, listed above. Between all three books, one gets a pretty good idea of who did what during tha battle. I think Shattered Sword, while a good book, is more of a clarificaton and was not as much of a revamp of Midway as portrayed. It did however go in to far greater detail of the Japanese carrier air operations and altered (but not overly so) the state of the Japanese carriers when Bombing Six, Scouting Six, and Bombing Three delivered the decisive strike that changed the course of the war that morning.

Interestingly enough, referring to Manny's statement of the earlier attacks of the morning by US forces, my take is that those strikes did more to re inforce Japanese contempt for the Americans, rather than scare them. While they did help to use op(but not wear down) the defenses, and finally divert some, most accounts I have read that quote Japanese participants seem to commonly state they were unimpressed by the skills of the US aviators.

Mansteins revenge wrote:

All of the Japanese ships sunk at Midway were sunk by airplanes that were carrier-based...As far as I can tell from my refs, every land-based strike scored no hits...Now you can argue that these attacks "un-nerved" or "scared" the Japanese or other subjective things, but I tend to stick with the objective facts...

bondoman wrote:

Yes, Mikuma you are right. VMSB-241 had 27 SBDs engaged. And, if Nimitz had actually had any B-36s, that might have carried the day...

How right you are!  I meant B-26s... B-36s would have scared the crappe out of everybody!

bondoman wrote:

They were marine squadrons, and they engaged first. The Mogami was mortally wounded, and the first two carriers were damaged enough to throw the battle into the usual dissarray. The TBD squadron not TBFs were carrier based and perished heroically, but that's beside the point. Any element of surprise was eliminated by land based patrols. A decent movie of this battle would be a real treasure.

Yes, a new movie would be fantastic with today's CGI, but it appears that the Army and Marines took claim for damage they didn't actually accomplish.  Below is an excerpt from the website for CV-6.

http://www.cv6.org/1942/midway/midway_5.htm

Even as I-168 delivered the fatal blow to Yorktown, Hornet again struck at the wrecked enemy cruisers, launching 24 SBDs armed with 1000-lb bombs which attacked at 1445. Shortly afterwards, Enterprise launched her last mission of the battle, two SBDs equipped with cameras, to photograph the enemy ships. Mogami managed to escape, eventually reaching Truk, and out of action for over a year. The SBDs found Mikuma settling quickly: the photos they took rank among the best known of the Pacific War.

The Consequences

Shortly after the final attacks on Mikuma, Spruance concluded it would be best to break off pursuit of the enemy, as he would soon be in range of enemy planes based on Wake Island. At 1900, Task Force 16, its ships full of exhausted but victorious aviators and sailors, turned east, first to rendezvous with oilers, and then to proceed southeast to Pearl Harbor, arriving late June 13.

For a number of reasons, the decisive role that Enterprise and the US Navy played at Midway remained under-appreciated for some time. Stories of the Army Air Force's exploits during the battle reached the news media first. Despite the fact that not a single hit was scored by the AAF's bombers, initially they received much of the credit for the destruction of Nagumo's carriers. Only time and the lifting of the veils of secrecy and censorship would reveal the facts.

The Army and Marine planes based at Midway deserve full credit for their attacks on the enemy carriers, and the disruption they caused. Yet at twenty minutes past ten, the morning of June 4, 1942, dive bombers from Enterprise and Yorktown found four undamaged enemy carriers, preparing to launch a powerful attack against the US fleet. Six minutes later, three of those carriers were infernos. Enterprise destroyed two enemy carriers in those six minutes, Yorktown one. Aviators from both carriers, flying from Enterprise, destroyed the fourth carrier later that same day.

Yes, Mikuma you are right.

VMSB-241 had 27 SBDs engaged. And, if Nimitz had actually had any B-36s, that might have carried the day...

Sorry, bondo, Mogami was sunk at Leyte in 1944. I think you are thinking of Mikuma, which collided with Mogami after avoiding an attack by USS Tambor, SS-198. Mikuma was finished off by SBDsfrom Hornet the following day.

The only Marine aircraft involved in the battle, to the best of my knowledge, were fighter aircraft defending Midway itself. The US Army Air Corps were flying the B-17s and B-36s. The TBFs were aircraft from Hornet that had not met up with the ship yet and were flying out of Midway. It was their first (and for 5/6 of the aircraft, the last) taste of combat. One B-36 did make a significant contribution to the battle as it flew right over the Akagi and almost killed Nagumo, the commander of the Carrier Strike Force. It is believed that this attack unnerved him a bit.

tucchase wrote:

subfixer wrote: (smart aleck!) You are referring to the B-17s, B-26s, TBFs, and SBDs based at Midway and were launched the initial attack, I take it. The main effect that these aircraft had, from what I understand, was to set the Japanese formation into disarray. The carrier aircraft from Yorktown, Hornet, and Enterprise delivered the killing blows, unless I am mistaken, which I may very well be. From what I remember of the several books I read years ('70s) ago, the land forces basically missed everything.  Later, the TBFs from the carriers pulled the fighter cover down to battle them (I think one pilot survived) and before the fighters could get back on station, the carrier SBDs arrived and basically had a duck shoot with no opposition but the AA guns.  Unfortunately, while this was going on, the Japanese planes found the Yorktown.  But they had no place to go back to and land their planes, but we still had the Hornet and Enterprise virtually untouched.

A decent movie of this battle would be a real treasure.

This book is, in my opinion, the best account of the Battle of Midway by far:

Shattered Sword by Parshall and Tulley. It debunks a myriad of myths that have been conjured up over the years, many that have been taught as gospel.

For those who might like to see a quick review of this book:

http://www.troynovant.com/Franson/Parshall-Tully/Shattered-Sword.html

subfixer wrote:

(smart aleck!) You are referring to the B-17s, B-26s, TBFs, and SBDs based at Midway and were launched the initial attack, I take it. The main effect that these aircraft had, from what I understand, was to set the Japanese formation into disarray. The carrier aircraft from Yorktown, Hornet, and Enterprise delivered the killing blows, unless I am mistaken, which I may very well be.

From what I remember of the several books I read years ('70s) ago, the land forces basically missed everything.  Later, the TBFs from the carriers pulled the fighter cover down to battle them (I think one pilot survived) and before the fighters could get back on station, the carrier SBDs arrived and basically had a duck shoot with no opposition but the AA guns.  Unfortunately, while this was going on, the Japanese planes found the Yorktown.  But they had no place to go back to and land their planes, but we still had the Hornet and Enterprise virtually untouched.

stikpusher wrote:

If you look on this link, at 3:05 the clip appears to be the same. The deck number is 10, USS Yorktown. And it is an F6F. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcl9XkZOrUU

That deck crewman at 2:46 has a quite a pair. They didn't have much in the way of fire protective clothing in WW2 and he is just up on the wing to get the pilot out ignoring that ball of fire below. That would be pretty risky with modern PPE.  

(smart aleck!)

You are referring to the B-17s, B-26s, TBFs, and SBDs based at Midway and were launched the initial attack, I take it. The main effect that these aircraft had, from what I understand, was to set the Japanese formation into disarray. The carrier aircraft from Yorktown, Hornet, and Enterprise delivered the killing blows, unless I am mistaken, which I may very well be.

subfixer wrote:

bondoman wrote: Actually the reason I don't like it is that it virtually ignores that the battle was largely won by land based forces. Midway was largely won by land forces? Please elaborate, bondo. (This should be good)

bondoman wrote:

Actually the reason I don't like it is that it virtually ignores that the battle was largely won by land based forces.

Midway was largely won by land forces? Please elaborate, bondo. (This should be good)

stikpusher wrote:

While it did have many technical errors, mainly in footage chosen, it still stands up better historicly than say, Battle of the Bulge or Pearl Harbor.... It did follow most of the historical facts. If they had cut out the romance sub plot, they could have had the time for the factual stuff that was left out.

ddp59 wrote:

jody, which hornet are you thinking of getting, the yorktown class carrier hornet or the essex class carrier hornet? the hornet that launched the doolittle raid is of the yorktown class carrier.

Jody go back to my earlier post of the Essex/ Hornet...

jody_c wrote:

I know the actual clip was used in the movie Midway.

That movie has to be one the biggest stinkers of all time.  It has a ridiculous collection of stock and retread footage used throughout.  The biggest gaffe has to be Charlton Heston's plane-- he takes off to attack the Japanese in a 2 seater-- by the time he's over the fleet,  he's in a single seat fighter.  When he crash lands on the ship, his plane is now a jet!

About the only historical fact you can take from that movie is that there was an island named Midway......

Mike F6F wrote:

Looks like the island in the diorama shot is a CVL or CVE island, not an Essex-class one. Mike

Mike F6F wrote:

Looks like the island in the diorama shot is a CVL or CVE island, not an Essex-class one.

It'd be a later CVE if anything. I know for certain it's not one of the Independence class CVLs. 

jody_c wrote:

Got it !! Thanks alot folks. I was tossed up between Trumpeters 1/350 Hornet or the Yorktown. I just figured I would add a little interest by having a wrecked plane on the deck. Both look awesome, if I do the Hornet, then it was going to be the Doolittle Raid theme. But the Yorktown models I've seen have a selection of aircraft, therefore being of interest in itself. SO...OFF i GO TO BUY ONE..AGAIN THANKS TO ALL. Jody

There was a damaged Yorktown F4F that had a hard landing on Hornet during the Battle of Midway that might make for an interesting dio. Here is a link with info and photos.

http://www.researcheratlarge.com/Ships/CV8/MidwayF4FDamageReport.html

Manny I wonder the same thing about those deck crew guys... obviously a very hazardous job during flight recovery ops.

jody_c wrote:

Thank you folks for all the info. I really do appreciate it. So in conclusion, It was a hellcat, on MOST IMPORTANTLY, the CV10 USS Yorktown ? BUT this didn't occur durring Midway, right ?

Nope, the Yorktown at Midway was CV-5, where she was sunk. CV-10 was renamed after her, prior to being commisioned. The Hellcat did not see operational combat on carriers until 1943. That clip was taken from the documentary film, "The Fighting Lady" filmed during the Marianas campaign in mid 1944.