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Heller 1/100 Victory

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  • Member since
    June 2010
  • From: Irvine, CA
Posted by Force9 on Tuesday, July 13, 2010 9:27 PM

bondoman

Plus lifts and eyes (4 each) for the gun port lids.

 

If you adhere to the nuances on the preserved ship... some gun port lids along the upper deck will only have one inner eyelet.

 

You are making rapid and impressive progress!

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Carmel, CA
Posted by bondoman on Tuesday, July 13, 2010 10:33 PM

Thank you. I'll follow that tidbit! Might be in McKay?

  • Member since
    June 2010
  • From: Irvine, CA
Posted by Force9 on Tuesday, July 13, 2010 11:59 PM

 

It is a subtlety not captured by McKay.   You'll need to reference pictures of the preserved ship - here is a quick one I grabbed from a Wiki entry:

 

 

Looks like the lids above the middle gun deck may all only have one inner eyelet...

 

Hope that helps.

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Carmel, CA
Posted by bondoman on Thursday, July 15, 2010 1:52 AM

Well as usual these conversations lead to a new appreciation of what's what. Only a number of upper deck gun ports had lids. And only a smaller number of quarter deck ports had ditto.

Finished the barrels tonite. I'm building jigs in which to construct the trucks, tomorrow over coffee. I may take the day off.

A point. The lower deck has a raised curb cast in to help position the guns. But, I have thickened the bulwarks on the gun decks and this curb will probably end up right under the rear wheels of the guns. Without any further thought, I will be shaving it off and repainting the deck. Better now than later.

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Carmel, CA
Posted by bondoman on Saturday, July 17, 2010 11:44 AM

I have finished the 32 and 24 pounder gun trucks. It took two nights, but a little organization went a long way.60 assemblies, 5 parts each. Actually I still have to go back and add the beds to each, but that would have slowed me down too much if included in the original assembly.

I made a little jig to align the axles, which also served as a thirty second drying rack.

Today I'm starting on the 40 or so 12 pounders. At least the carronades are one piece.

And I need to prime the 32/24's. No sense trying to spray yellow directly over black.

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Carmel, CA
Posted by bondoman on Wednesday, August 11, 2010 3:21 AM

Ordered my copper bottom tape, cordage and eyebolts today!

  • Member since
    September 2009
  • From: Miami, FL
Posted by Felix C. on Wednesday, August 11, 2010 10:36 AM

The other sailing ships I have are 1/150. Is there a plastic Victory in 1/150? Sorry, no trying to threadjack.

  • Member since
    August 2010
  • From: Heart of the Ozarks, Mansfield, MO (AKA, the 3rd world)
Posted by Rich on Thursday, August 12, 2010 12:24 AM

Bill, you are working my alltime favorite plastic kit. I'll follow this log from now on. I have a suggestion if you're not too far along; fit her out with simulated flickering oil lamterns. I have written a tutorial how to do it. If you're interested I'll give you a copy.

Rich

Nautical Society of Oregon Model Shipwrights

Portland Model Power Boat Association

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Carmel, CA
Posted by bondoman on Thursday, August 12, 2010 12:42 AM

Sure, I'd be interested. Although do you think they really flickered? I do plan to put in a lantern system as part of the gun deck build.

 

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Carmel, CA
Posted by bondoman on Thursday, August 12, 2010 1:06 AM

Felix C.

The other sailing ships I have are 1/150. Is there a plastic Victory in 1/150? Sorry, no trying to threadjack.

I am certainly not aware of one. There apparently was an infamous metal and plastic kit at abt. 1/150 made for a brief time about thirty years ago by Imai. By all (only a few) accounts a piece of junk not worth investing time in.

Imai is the vendor of my Victory, and there are two very significant features that make the kit worth looking for. The first is a box of five very large (long) well made cordage spools in five sizes. The second is a truly superior set of instructions, albeit in Japanese, but well illustrated and much more useful that the parrot cage lining provided by Heller.Pirate

  • Member since
    August 2010
  • From: Heart of the Ozarks, Mansfield, MO (AKA, the 3rd world)
Posted by Rich on Thursday, August 12, 2010 1:18 AM

bondoman

Sure, I'd be interested. Although do you think they really flickered? I do plan to put in a lantern system as part of the gun deck build.

 

They had to flicker Bill. Lantern mantles such as you find on modern camp lanterns didn;t appear until the 1880s, Before that all lanterns including whale oil lamps had an open flame. With my tutorial you can make those lights for about $4 each with a PIC circuit and LEDs (good for 100,000 hours or more), and they really finish the model. Let me know how to get a copy to you. It will be in PDF format.

Rich

Nautical Society of Oregon Model Shipwrights

Portland Model Power Boat Association

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Carmel, CA
Posted by bondoman on Thursday, August 12, 2010 1:39 AM

Rich, see my "conversation"

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Friday, August 13, 2010 12:40 PM

Here is an interesting question . . . Did Victory ever carry a lateen on her mizzen instead of a spanker?  I am attempting to model her at an earlier stage in her career by using the painting Victory Leaving the Channel in 1793 by Monamy Swaine. The painting seems to illustrate a lateen on her mizzen. I would sincerely be interested in any of your thoughts.

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    August 2010
  • From: Heart of the Ozarks, Mansfield, MO (AKA, the 3rd world)
Posted by Rich on Friday, August 13, 2010 12:57 PM

Don't know the answer to your question Bill, but I thought I'd go off topic for just a moment to remark that you're my dad's namesake, and at the age of 19 he embarked on a merchant marine squarerigger for an around the world training cruise. Your middle name wouldn't be Abraham (his) by any chance?

OK, sorry. Let's all get back to work! 

Rich

Nautical Society of Oregon Model Shipwrights

Portland Model Power Boat Association

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Friday, August 13, 2010 1:44 PM

Rich,

I sent an email to answer your question. For anyone wanting to see the painting in question, just do an internet search under the paintings title or by the artists' name.  It is an interesting painting.

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    June 2010
  • From: Cocoa, Florida
Posted by GeoffWilkinson on Friday, August 13, 2010 8:07 PM

warshipguy

Here is an interesting question . . . Did Victory ever carry a lateen on her mizzen instead of a spanker?  I am attempting to model her at an earlier stage in her career by using the painting Victory Leaving the Channel in 1793 by Monamy Swaine. The painting seems to illustrate a lateen on her mizzen. I would sincerely be interested in any of your thoughts.

Bill Morrison

Hope this helps.

A bit of pre Trafalgar history, mainly from McKay::

Admiral Lord Hood raised his flag aboard Victory on 6 May 1793, this time in command of the Mediterranean fleet. The occupation of Toulon resulted in France losing must of her fleet. The fleet also cooperated with the British army in capturing San Fiorenzo, and an amphibious operation ensured the capture of Bastia. On 13 July 1795 under the command of Rear-Admiral Robert Man Victory and the fleet fought the French in Hotham's action off the Isle of Hyeres. Another change in command brought Admiral Sir John Jervis to Victory and on 3 December 1795 he took command; the fleet was moved to Gibraltar from December 1796. In the next year Jervis, with 16 British ships, encountered and engaged a fleet of 27 Spanish ships, and beat them most decisively. This engagement is known as the Battle of St Vincent, and was fought on 14 February 1797 and as a result of his victory, Jervis was created Earl of St. Vincent. It also brought Victory to the public's attention for the first time. From February 1800 to April 1803 Victory underwent reconstruction.

This rebuild included a good deal of structural and hull work and the closing-in of her open stern galleries.

 

In May 1803 Victory again sailed for the Mediterranean, this time under the command of Admiral Lord Nelson, and again rook up station blockading Toulon. The French fleet evaded Nelson and escaped from Toulon, and there followed a fruitless pursuit by the British fleet across the Atlantic to the West Indies and back, at the end of which Victory received a refit at Portsmouth. By September 1805 Victory was on station off Cadiz, blockading the combined fleets. On 21 October 1805 the famous Battle of Trafalgar was fought and due to Nelson's tactics, the British fleet  won a most remarkable victory .

 

Below is a portion of the small painting by Monamy Swaine, of Victory as she appeared in 1793 (with open stern and lateen sail upon her mizzen mast) as flagship of Admiral Lord Hood.

However, about the middle of the 18th century it ceased to be a pure lateen. The yard was retained, but no sail was set on the forearm. Then the yard was given up and replaced by a gaff and a boom.

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Friday, August 13, 2010 8:45 PM

Geoff,

The McKay summary is helpful. Thanks!  One problem with using paintings as a guide is the uncertainty of the artist's accuracy.  One other interesting detail in the painting is that there is no entry port.  Also, the forecastle bulwarks seem to be the usual hip-high version instead of the shoulder-high that has been commented upon elsewhere.  It certainly presents a different image of the Victory.

The kit I am using is a 1/180 scale HECEPOB kit by Aeropiccola, although this kit was hardly "Hideously Expensive" at $45.00.  But, it is so sparce in detail that I became tempted to modify her to appear as in this painting.  Besides, every model of Victory seems to represent her as at Trafalgar.  I wanted something different.

Any other observations would be very helpful!

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    June 2010
  • From: Cocoa, Florida
Posted by GeoffWilkinson on Saturday, August 14, 2010 5:26 PM

As originally fitted, Victory's mizzen mast was lateen rigged; its lower yard was set diagonally and carried a triangular sail. Around 1797 her lateen was removed and replaced by a horizontal spar known as the cross-jack yard . To compensate for the staying qualities of her lateen, she was fitted with a spanker carried by gaff and boom.

There is a model of the hull of the Victory, made around 1765, in the National Maritime Museum, London. The entry port can be seen clearly on this model.

http://www.nmm.ac.uk/collections/nelson/viewObject.cfm?ID=SLR0512

Hope this helps,

Geoff

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Saturday, August 14, 2010 6:20 PM

Geoff,

This has been very helpful! Thanks!

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    March 2010
  • From: Brisbane
Posted by Julez72 on Saturday, August 14, 2010 11:40 PM

Bondoman.........hintCamerahintYes

 

 

 

  • Member since
    August 2010
  • From: Heart of the Ozarks, Mansfield, MO (AKA, the 3rd world)
Posted by Rich on Sunday, August 15, 2010 5:50 AM

warshipguy

The kit I am using is a 1/180 scale HECEPOB kit by Aeropiccola, although this kit was hardly "Hideously Expensive" at $45.00.  Bill Morrison

Bill, Aeropiccola? Now that's really going back some! I assume the kit is wooden, with a planked hull? Would love to see photo(s).

Rich

Nautical Society of Oregon Model Shipwrights

Portland Model Power Boat Association

  • Member since
    February 2006
  • From: The green shires of England
Posted by GeorgeW on Sunday, August 15, 2010 7:44 AM

Geoff, I see you have quoted directly from McKay's Victory book. I have never understood the statement that her Lateen was replaced by a horizontal spar known as the cross jack yard?

The Cross jack yard was in effect a spreader for the Mizen Topsail and as far as I understand was used concurrently with  the Mizen yard, both in its full lateen (Mizen) sail and later when it was generally laced to the mast. (This can be seen on the photo provided above.)

When the Gaff and Driver boom were introduced the Crossjack yard still remained as a spreader for the Topsail yard.

I do know that there are a number of errors in that book, perhaps this is another one?

 

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Sunday, August 15, 2010 9:09 AM

Rich,

Yes, Aeropiccola. The kit is part of their Supermec series. My wife bought it for me when we were stationed in La Maddelena, Sardinia, Italy in the late 1970's.  It is a beginner's plank on bulkhead model with very nicely molded bow, stern, quarter gallery sections, boats, and tops to ease the building.  Unfortunately, the builder is supposed to draw (with pencil!) the gunport lids onto the hull; all gratings are nothing but printed sheets.  As you can guess, I am detailing it with scratch-built gratings, drilled out gunports, and other details.

The series also included a similar model of Prince and La Flore, both of which I have recently acquired. I have never figured out how to post pictures on this site but would love to do so.

Bill

  • Member since
    June 2010
  • From: Cocoa, Florida
Posted by GeoffWilkinson on Sunday, August 15, 2010 1:10 PM

GeorgeW

The Cross jack yard was in effect a spreader for the Mizen Topsail and as far as I understand was used concurrently with  the Mizen yard, both in its full lateen (Mizen) sail and later when it was generally laced to the mast. (This can be seen on the photo provided above.)

When the Gaff and Driver boom were introduced the Crossjack yard still remained as a spreader for the Topsail yard.

I do know that there are a number of errors in that book, perhaps this is another one?

 

While I don’t think this answers your question it may be another piece in the puzzle.

Thomas Slade was responsible for the design of many of the British sailing Warships during the mid 18th century, Victory being one of them. There are quite a few models of his designs in the National Maritime museum in London. It seems his ‘generic’ rig of the mizzen is shown in the picture below.

The main reason for employing a lateen sail was to add maneuverability when sailing into the wind. I think this concept was the fore-runner of the gaff. The sail is not a true Lateen sail because that would have involved the yard being transferred to the other side of the mast when tacking.

Geoff

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Sunday, August 15, 2010 5:58 PM

Geoff,

This diagram appears to match the painting by Swaine perfectly. I noticed in the painting that the crossjack yard passed over the yardarm, preventing a full spread of a lateen.

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Monday, August 16, 2010 12:07 PM

I rassled my way through this subject quite a few years ago, when I was working on a model of an American frigate from the Revolutionary War period.  It's a complex topic.

The basic developmental progression seems to have begun with the lateen yard and its "full," triangular sail.  That configuration eventually morphed into the modern gaff-and-boom-rigged spanker.  Just how the process worked seems to have varied a bit from place to place, and the various steps in it didn't happen suddenly.

Here's a quote from the relevant volume in the Conway's History of the Ship series, The Line of Battle:  The Sailing Warship, 1650-1840.  The chapter on rigging was written by Karl Heinz Marquardt.  (I have reservations about some of his stuff, but I do have confidence in his writings about the history of rigging in the eighteenth century.)  From p. 127:

"Of all the major sails in a ship, the mizzen course underwent the greatest modification.  Originally a fore and aft lateen sail (and not altered in most Continental ships for the duration of the period under review), by the early seventeenth century in English and Dutch ships it had acquired a bonnet to its foot, which gave the sail a four-cornered look.  Around 1680 the bonnet was integrated into the course and, strictly speaking, the sail was then a settee rather than a lateen sail.  After 1730 the large mizzen course's part before the mast was gradually dispensed with and the new fore edge, or luff, was laced to the mizzen mast.  The change came first to smaller ships and was progressively extended to all, with the last of the larger ships being altered during the 1780s.

"Smaller craft had carried a short gaff rather than the more unwield mizzen yard from early in the century, but the sail usually had a vertical leech and a clew which belayed inside the taffrail (or a little ouside it on fixed outriggers).  The gaff can trace its ancestry to the 1620s, with the first gaff rigged vessels being Dutch boeiers; evolved from the diagonal sprit yard, for a time it was also known as a half-sprit.  During the American Revolutionary War, the relatively small mizzen began to be replaced with a larger gaff-and-boom sail 'in the form of a brig's main sail'.  The new sail came to be called the spanker, and gradually took over from both the loose-footed gaff and the truncated sail set from the long mizzen yard.  Nelson's flagship during the Battle of the Nile in 1798, HMS Vanguard, was the only ship of th eline still carrying a mizzen yard during that action.

"Preceding the spanker, and often confused with it, was the driver, at first an additional fine weather square sail, hoisted to the peak of the mizzen yard.  After about 1780 in English merchantmen it became a mizzen's fore and aft extension, but in the Royal Navy the term was applied to a larger temporary fore and aft sail of brig main sail shape hoisted to the gaff instead of a small loose-footed mizzen.  An ancilliary boom was essential to extend the clew of the driver, but the sail disappeared when the permanent spanker rendered it redundant.  Continental ships seem to have carried the square driver for much longer."

I've seen other sources that disagree with that explanation in a few minor points, but I think Mr. Marquardt has the story straight.

The crossjack, or crojack, yard seems to have been conceived initially as an apparatus for spreading the foot of the mizzen topsail.  In the beginning, when the mizzen sail extended forward of the mast, there obviously was no room for a square sail set to the crossjack yard.  Eventually it occurred to somebody that a square sail could be set there, and it was, with rare logic, called the crossjack.  But I'm not sure exactly when that happened.  James Lees, in his authoritative book The masting and Rigging of English Ships of War, 1620-1860, makes no mention of such a sail.  The American and British clipper ships (e.g., the Flying Cloud and the Cutty Sark) certainly set crossjacks.  But I can't recall having bumped into a contemporary picture of a warship setting one.  Such a sail didn't actually accomplish much.  If the ship was running before the wind the crossjack would block the wind from the main course, and if she was working to windward the spanker would block half the wind from the crossjack.  Contemporary pictures (both paintings and photos) frequently show the crossjack furled when virtually all the other square sails are set.

Bill's observation of the mizzen yard being secured above the crossjack yard in that painting of the Victory is most interesting; I'd never noticed such a thing before.  My first inclination was to think the artist had simply made a mistake - and I guess that's possible.  But after thinking about it for a minute I don't see why that configuration wouldn't work.  The mizzen yard wouldn't need to be raised or lowered under any normal circumstances.  (The ritual of swinging it around to the opposite side of the mast every time the ship came about became obsolete when the part of the sail forward of the mast got chopped off).  The mechanism for securing the crossjack yard to the mast, according to Mr. Lees, was quite simple:  a rope truss arrangement, rather than the bulkier parrels used on the fore and main courses.  Such a truss could easily be passed between the mizzen sail and the mast.  And whether the crossjack yard or the mizzen yard was on top surely wouldn't make any difference to the handling of the ship. 

Or maybe the artist goofed.  But the rest of the painting suggests pretty strongly that he knew what he was doing.

Fascinating, if ultimately trivial, stuff.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    June 2010
  • From: Winchester,Va.
Posted by rcweasel on Monday, August 16, 2010 7:49 PM

Fascinating indeed and maybe not so trivial. As with many here I returned to the hobby a few years ago after thirty some years. I picked up where I left off primarily with muscle cars and WW2 aircraft. Then I started reading the Aubrey/Maturin book, and one day picked up the small Constitution from Revell at my LHS. I really enjoyed it and soon had gone through all 3 of the ships at the shop. Then I started cruising the net and soon discovered this forum. I soon found myself driven by a kind of passion for the subject of sailing ships. My bookshelves are starting to fill with books on the subject. I find I care much more about the history and evolution of the technology of sail than I could care about adding all the aftermarket pieces to an airplane.Maybe it's because my hands aren't as steady as 35 years ago, but I think it really is about the intellectual stimulation I get from looking into things like a crojack yard. I love the learning and love the history as much as the actual building of the model. So please keep these discussions and information coming.

Bundin er båtleysir maøur - Bound is the boatless man

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Monday, August 16, 2010 8:43 PM

Welcome to the wonderful world of sailing ship modeling! Toast  We are the oft-ignored area of modeling (at least by the manufacturers; the more the merrier!

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    August 2010
  • From: Heart of the Ozarks, Mansfield, MO (AKA, the 3rd world)
Posted by Rich on Monday, August 16, 2010 11:43 PM

warshipguy

Welcome to the wonderful world of sailing ship modeling! Toast  We are the oft-ignored area of modeling (at least by the manufacturers; the more the merrier!

Bill Morrison

Bill, that's only if you don't work in wood. Otherwise, there's a wealth of kit manufacturing available. Just a few: Model Shipways, Artesania Latina, Billings Boat, Occre, Caldercraft/Jotika, Mantua, Amati, Midwest, Victory Models, and I'm sure a few more that I don't have the presence of mind to remember.

Rich

Nautical Society of Oregon Model Shipwrights

Portland Model Power Boat Association

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Tuesday, August 17, 2010 9:32 AM

Rich,

Believe me that I fully appreciate your observation!  I was referring to the plastic modeling industry. I also build in wood as well as plastic, but one has to be very careful about some of the products. I'm sure John Tilley could elaborate at length about the HECEPOB kits (Hideously Expensive Continental European Plank On Bulkhead kits).

I have often cited the apparent success of these companies when lobbying the plastic modeling industry to join the revolution in ship modeling by producing not only standard scales but an improved and increased range of plastic sailing ship kits.  I have focused these efforts primarily on Airfix, but I have also written to the others as well.  Please see the old thread "Attention Sailing Ship Modelers".

Bill

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