wheres the ships

Tomee,

Welcome!  You are coming into a golden era of ship modeling. Never before has there been such a wide selection manufactured to very high standards.  Unfortunately, the industry has not paid any attention to sailing ship kits. You are correct about the lack of references concerning plastic ship modeling, however, Mike Ashey's excellent two books about twentieth century ships is precise two more books than there is about plastic sailing ship modeling!

That said, there are many excellent references about sailing ship modeling in general.  First, there is "Jackstay" published by Model Shipways.  "Historic Ship Models"  by Wolfram zu Mondfeld and "Ship Modeling from Stem to Stern" by Milton Roth are excellent general references to sailing ship modeling. "The Arto of Rigging" by George Biddlecombe and "The Rigging of Ships in the Days of the Spritsail Topmast" are outstanding references on rigging.

You can also get lots of help with sailing ship modeling right here. We are a small, friendly community with a distinctly minority hobby.

Again, welcome!

Bill Morrison

Tom

    there's a great book called "How To Build Plastic Ship Models" by Les Wilkins. its been out of print for a while but can be found from time to time on Ebay and also Amazon. Goes into great detail on how to build plastic sailing ships.

There's a great Cd with all the copies of the Model Ship Builder magazine.which for my money was the best model ship magazine.the Cd has all the articles on wood models plus some great articles on plastic sailing ships.The Cd was produced by Seaways ships in scale. You can try them at www.seaways.com

Hope that helps.

Rod

Unfortunately the available literature on plastic sailing ship modeling - and sailing ship modeling for beginners in general - is pretty thin.  A big part of the problem is that the plastic sailing ship hobby is so small.  (There have been virtually no new releases from the manufacturers in this field for at least twenty years; plastic sailing ship enthusiasts survive on reissues of old kits and genuinely old products that they find in garage sales and on E-bay.) 

Another difficulty:  there's always been a tendency on the part of good, experienced ship modelers to write books that demonstrate their expertise, rather than convey the basics of the hobby to the beginner.  If I had to confer the title "World's Best Ship Modeler" on any one individual, it almost certainly would be the late Donald McNarry.  He published a couple of superb books, but I'm afraid their primary effect on a newcomer to the hobby would be to induce depression.  (I make it a point never to look at a photo of a McNarry model when I've been working on one of mine.)  The same goes for the works of Phillip Reid, C. Nepean Longridge, Harold Hahn, and several other masters.  Great sources of inspiration, but of limited practical value to ordinary mortals - especially beginners.

I enthusiastically second Bill's recommendation of George Campbell's The Neophyte Shipmodeler's Jackstay.  It's an old book, published in (I think) the early 1960s by Model Shipways as a guide to building that manufacturer's solid-hull wood kits.  It makes no direct reference to plastic modeling.  But it's full of good, sound information about basic modeling concepts and nautical terminology.  Anybody who learns everything about sailing ships that's contained in that book will be well on the way to becoming a knowledgable modeler.  And the price is right.  Here's a link:  http://www.modelexpo-online.com/product.asp?ITEMNO=MSB110 .

Another, more modern book from the same source is Ben Lankford's How To Build First Rate Ship Models From Kits  ( http://www.modelexpo-online.com/product.asp?ITEMNO=MS114 ).  Most of this one is devoted to wood kits, which are Mr. Lankford's primary interest, but it does contain some references to plastic ones.  And its references to such things as tools, materials, and adhesives are more up-to-date than Mr. Campbell's.

The Mondfeld book  is a bit of a mixed bag, but certainly worth acquiring.  (Unfortunately it appears to be out of print at the moment, but used copies are readily available:  ( http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Historic-Ship-Models/Wolfram-zu-Mondfeld/e/9780806957333/?itm=2&USRI=wolfram+zu+mondfeld ).  The author unquestionably knows what he's talking about, and the book contains a ton of worthwhile information.  It has a couple of drawbacks from the standpoint of the American newcomer.  One - it covers such a huge breadth of subject matter that it can't cover any individual subjec t in much depth.  Two - it has a distinctly European flavor, which shows up in such areas as materials, adhesives, techniques, etc.  With those slight reservations I recommend it.

My friend Bill and I are going to have to agree to disagree about one other source he mentioned:  Milton Roth's Ship Modeling From Stem To Stern.  I've sounded off about this one in several places before; rather than do that again, I'll just refer to what I said about it in an earlier FSM Forum post, in which I quoted a review of it that I wrote back in 1988 for the Nautical Research Journal:  /forums/p/113095/1126897.aspx#1126897 .  (The post in question is the sixth one from the top.)   Please consider my comments in the context of other people's opinions.  But I can't recommend the book.

The world certainly could use a new, good, comprehensive book on sailing ship modeling - plastic, wood, and other - written by an experienced modeler and targeted at the newcomer to the hobby.  Unfortunately, the publishers probably would conclude that the market wouldn't support it. 

I spent some time the other day Christmas shopping at a Barnes and Noble store in Raleigh, NC.  The teeming metropolis of Raleigh admittedly isn't the best place in the world to look for evidence of the popularity of ship modeling, but I found a stroll through the "Crafts and Hobbies" section instructive.  The number of books on woodworking and sewing was in the dozens.  There were lots of books on collecting - collecting everything from phonograph records to toys to Lionel trains to Stanley tools.  There were books on how to press flowers, how to make Origami paper scuptures, and quite a few hobbies that I admit I'd never heard of.  And the number of books on scale modeling, in any form, was precisely zero.  (There wasn't even a single book about model railroading - except the one on collecting Lionel products.  I confess that surprised me a little.)  That, I fear, says a good deal about the times in which we live.

     Wheres, I have found being new at painting the most disturbing thing. Paint doesn't seem to be covering and always looks too thick going on if you aren't used to it. If you practice on sprues you'll see the paint shrinks down as it dries and can be recoated until you get the look you want. Another idea that comes to mind is using rubber bands to get the hull and deck together quickly. Now you have an instant shipyard looking ship to look at while you build your ship. Heheheh. Take your time and have a nice day, Paul-Rubber Band Addict

I'll make a comment in regards to John Tilley's. C. Nepean Longridge wrote a book many years ago with the almost (save one example) completely erroneous title "The Anatomy of Nelson's Ships". Actually his point is that the one he describes pretty well gives a look into the shipbuilding practices of that time and place.

It is in fact a blow by blow description of how to scratch build a model of the HMS Victory at 1/48 scale. Certainly such an endeavour is way beyond the capabilities of most of us, and the life spans of the rest, but it is to my mind a delightful read.

I recommend it to you purely as a point of interest and a look into the thoughts and processes of a master. He for instance is in the "if you can't see it it isn't worth it" school, preferring to save energy for the important things like building the ships boats or properly seizing blocks to lines, winding anchor cable and so on.

If you think aftermarket is for the faint hearted, well, he wisely had the gun tools made by a local die maker from masters he made.

Just for the enjoyment, not so much for any tips or techniques.

I certainly agree with Bondoman about Dr. Longridge's Anatomy of Nelson's Ships.  In fact I'll go one step further.  If you have any interest in the old-fashioned art of drafting (by hand - without help from a computer), you'll find that book a treat for the eye as well as the intellect.  It contains dozens of drawings by George Campbell (the same gentleman who wrote and illustrated The Neophyte Shipmodeler's Jackstay), showing all sorts of details of the actual ship and the techniques Dr. Longridge used to replicate them.  Unfortunately the book is out of print at the moment (lots of good ship models books are, it seems), but used copies are fairly easy to find.  If you're lucky you'll get one with a set of Mr. Campbell's plans of the Victory folded in a pocket inside the back cover.

As a fun read, a source of inspiration, and a source of information about that particular ship (which I most emphatically don't recommend as a newcomer's project), it's a masterpiece.  But it contains almost nothing that will be directly relevant to plastic modeling.  When Dr. Longridge started his model of the Victory, plastic kits didn't exist.

John,

I wil not disagree with you about Milton's book.  I have tended to overlook the problem's and gleaned the facts that I need in spite of the book's other problems.

I respectfully withdraw my recommendation of Milton's book!

Bill Morrison

FSM frequently publishes articles on ship builds.  There are a couple of mags completely dedicated to model ships, though the majority of articles in them are on wooden models.

Several books out there on model ship building.

It IS true that most of the articles you see on model ships in mags that are primarily dedicated to plastic models are modern ships, but the model ship mags that cater to the wood model builders are at least half sailing ship models.  Look at a few issues of Ships in Scale.

FSM has had articles on model sailing ships, but sail stuff is just not as popular with plastic builders, though there are several very good sailing ship kits in plastic.  The big Revell kits (Constitution and Cutty Sark ) are excellent, and the Heller big kits (le Soleil Royale and Victory are absolutely top notch).

But- sailing ship models are major projects, unlike airplanes, cars or armor.  Plan to spend a year on a three master. I suggest you start with a simpler kit.  The Nina or Pinta or probably good starters. Kit mfgs do need to kit a simple brig or topsail schooner.  There are lots of wooden two masters, but tackling rigging AND hull planking at the same time is a source of failure to many.

Thank you Don ,

     Will look at the Nina  & PInta.  Good idea   Ive seen Constitution pics on line. On my xmas list so well see

                tom

The Airfix kits are also quite good and fairly easy to build, but are not always available except on ebay.  They tend to focus on British ships, with several exceptions.  HMS Victory, Revenge, Royal Sovereign, Prince, Endeavor, HMAV Bounty, Cutty Sark, the Swedish Wasa, the French Le Saint Louis, the American Flying Cloud weremanufactured at different times.

Revell also manufactures small-scale sailing ships, some to differing quality.  The large, mid, and small scale USS Constitution are all good kits.  HMAV Bounty is quite good, as are the Batavia, Golden Hind, Santa Maria, Nina, Pinta, Mayflower, and Flying Cloud.  Stay away from Revell's HMS Beagle and Stag Hound . . . they actually represent nothing.  The 1/96 scale USS Kearsarge and the Cutty Sark are excellent kits, the CSS Alabama is less so, and the Thermopylae, the Elizabethan Man 'o War, and Spanish Galleon are horrible.

The Heller range varies considerably in terms of quality.  See the various threads for any advice on them.

One of the most frustrating aspects of the plastic sailing ship hobby at the moment is the lack of good, accurate, well-designed kits that are suitable for newcomers.  I can recommend three that haven't been mentioned yet in this thread, and that I think are relatively easy to find. 

1.  The Revell Viking Ship (a remarkably accurate replica of the Gokstad Ship, one of the two major surviving Norse vessels:  http://www.revell.de/index.php?id=210&KGKANR=0&KGKOGP=10&KGSCHL=43&L=1&page=1&sort=0&nc=&searchactive=&q=&SWO=&ARMAS4=&PHPSESSID=716c927f43cc6452512b6b53eb07fe22&KZSLPG=&offset=4&cmd=show&ARARTN=05403&sp=1 ).

2.  A recent kit from the British company Emhar, representing the same ship:  http://www.megahobby.com/gokstad9thcenturyvikingship1-72emhar.aspx .

3.  A medieval cog, orginally released by the Russian company Zvezda and later sold by Revell.  It comes in a couple of variations; here's one:  http://www.creativemodels.net/product_info.php?products_id=7734 .

I should be honest and admit that I haven't built the latter two kits.  I have built the Revell Gokstad Ship; I enjoyed every minute of it.

Lots of beginners make the mistake of starting out by tackling a big, complicated, three-masted full-rigged ship.  Such people rarely last long in the hobby - not because they aren't skilled modelers, but because such models involve so much repetition and sheer time.  The Revell 1/96 Constitution, for example, is likely to take a good modeler at least a year's work - even if he/she doesn't try to dress it up with aftermarket parts and details that don't come in the box.  By the end of the first three months, the stuff the modeler did at the beginning of the project doesn't look so good any more.  Result:  frustration, discouragement, and a model that gets stuck on a shelf in the basement, forever unfinished.  My recommendation has always been to start with a model that can be built in a few weeks.  You'll get a dose of most aspects of the hobby in a relatively short time, and after investing a minimum of time and money you'll have a nice-looking model to put on the mantle.  That strikes me as a much more sensible way to proceed.

There was once a plastic kit manufacturer called Pyro, which made a number of sailing ships that were good "first projects":  the American fishing schooner Gertrude L. Thebaud, the revenue cutter Roger B. Taney, and the steam revenue cutter Harriet Lane.   Pyro went out of business many years ago.  The kits got several fresh leases on life under the labels of other manufacturers, most recently Lindberg (which apparently has gone out of business too.)  They went through several "name changes" as well; the Thebaud was sold under the label "American Cup Racer," the Taney as "Independence War Schooner," and the Lane as "Civil War Blockade Runner."  They show up periodically at garage sales, on E-bay, and on the shelves of hobby shops.  They're all good, basic, reasonably realistic kits - the sort that can be turned into fine models with a few weeks of effort and TLC.

I'll take the liberty of commenting briefly on some of the kits that have been mentioned earlier in this thread.  The Airfix sailing ship line currently consists (according to the Airfix website) of six kits:  the Endeavour, Wasa, Cutty Sark, Golden Hind, Bounty, and Victory.  (The company used to make several more:  the Royal Sovereign, Mayflower, Revenge, Discovery, Great Western, and St. Louis are the ones mentioned in Arthur Ward's book on the history of Airfix.  Bill mentioned an Airfix Flying Cloud; that's total news to me.)  I, like Bill, am a big fan of Airfix - but its bigger ships are in awfully small scales for most of us to work with.  Of the currently available range, I think the ones I'd recommend to the newcomer are the Endeavour and the Golden Hind.  (Stay away from the Airfix Bounty.  The considerably older, and somewhat smaller, Revell kit is actually quite a bit better in terms of resemblance to the actual ship.

I think Bill's comment on the Heller range hit the nail on the head.  The Heller Soleil Royal must surely be one of the most loved and hated plastic kits ever produced.  I happen to be in the anti-Soleil Royal camp, but it does have its fervent admirers.  In the unlikely event that anybody's interested in the various arguments pro and con about that particular kit, this thread will serve as a good introduction:  /forums/t/68138.aspx?PageIndex=1 .

I really wish some good, modern company would produce a few good, well-conceived plastic sailing ship kits suitable for newcomers to the hobby - relatively large-scale models of relatively small ships.  A colonial sloop, for instance, or a nineteenth-century pilot schooner.  Or a privateer schooner from the War of 1812.  (Aurora used to make one, but it's been out of production for close to forty years.)  Or a seventeenth-century English or Dutch yacht.  There are plenty of good subjects out there, if the manufacturers would ever conclude that sailing ship kits justify the investment. 

Just an aside, and not to Shanghai the thread. I've recently become fascinated with hybrid sail and steam ships, and in particular predreadnoughts. The one I'm working on now is a steel battleship rigged as a brig. Plenty to keep me busy!

I don't want to get court martialed from Fine Scaling's navy, but this is a subject I've given some thought to - might explain why I've got it wrong. I'm not sure that plastic is a good medium for building wooden ships. It's ideal for metal because it simply isn't feasible to build iron tanks or aluminum 48 scale fighters and good modelers can do a good job at replicating the original materials. (I've always thought that WWI aircraft have a kind of niche market because their sensibility really lies closer to that of wooden ship modeling.)  But wooden ship modeling is a formidable hobby in its own right. I did buy a couple of books on it before I dove back into plastic scale modeling. The tools and techniques are different and the projects no doubt more challenging than a model plane. (Although I dare say someone working on the new Dragon Scharnhorst will put in as many hours as another gent working on a moderately complex 18th century man of war.) Indeed, if I ever do master plastic modeling, I really think I'll fork out a couple hundred for the gear and give a wooden ship a crack. (Been told by a junkie that the ship's boat from Bounty that Bligh sailed across Asia is a great "starter.") The reason I make this argument is that you can build in wood and sailing ships were built in it: that's a huge advantage. I think something like a tugboat or even a river steamer might make a good plastic project, but I just don't see plastic kit makers being able to compete with that "look" that a planked wooden hull or deck gives a wooden ship. Plastic modeling is not a lesser craft, it's just different. (Now if you want to model a modern America's cup racer, I suppose one could use anything - their construction is a state secret I guess.)

This may be baloney, but I dare say that for ever HMS Victory or Bounty or Bluenose (another common wood "starter") that's available in plastic, there are hundreds of other ships built since 1900. Or maybe from 1938 - it's depressing that so many great ships of pre-World War II years are available only in resin. (I know some wooden ship modelers that build them: figure that. Of course multi-media scratch builders employ a level of craftsmanship that I can only dream of. I've seen fully operational boats & ships of all types sailing on a lake in Minneapolis that are what - four or five feet long. Of course they take nearly as long to build as it takes to construct a real aircraft from a kit.) 

Anyway, there's no doubt (I think anyway) that plastic modeling revolves around metal ships - most of them sailing for someone's navy and loaded with weapons. That's not bad. These are machines of staggering ingenuity and, in their own way, great beauty. And a part of history in a very big way. And extremely challenging to do well.

If you do want to model a wooden ship in plastic, I think I'd rub shoulders with some of the armor guys. You'd have to make wide use of artist oils, filters, washes - the kind of thing that modern armor modeling revolves around. Good ship modelers do too, but as noted there's nothing like the number of books available for ship building than you could find on, say, painting and finishing armor or aircraft.

Eric

EBergerud makes a number of interesting points.  For what it's worth, I think I agree with most - though not quite all - of them.

Of all the subjects that plastic kit manufacturers have undertaken, it may well be that the wood sailing ship is the least well-suited to the medium and material.  Styrene is a wonderful, versatile substance, but it has its limits.  Posts about sailing ships in this Forum are full of complaints about too-flexible spars, busted eyebolts, warped decks, etc., etc.  There's just no way, even in the hands of the best manufacturer, that styrene is a good material for making eyebolts, belaying pins, or small-diameter spars.

There's a widespread fallacy that the "right" material for making a model is the same material from which the prototype was built.  EBergerud notes that there are some big practical obstacles to that approach (e.g., trying to build a model of a tank out of steel).  But it's also true that not all materials are capable of "miniaturizing" themselves.  Wood has grain, and grain has scale.  Veteran ship modelers know that oak, for instance, is a lousy modeling material - even if the prototype was made of oak.  A tiny piece of oak, incorporated into a 1/96-scale ship model, just won't look like a piece of 1/96-scale oak.  (A 1/96-scale sailor would trip over the grain.)  That's always been one of my many beefs with the HECEPOB (that's Hideously Expensive Continental European Plank-On-Bulkhead) crowd.  Most of those kits are made out of woods that, though they may be nice for building furniture, just don't look like miniaturized wood.  Basswood, the favored material of good American kit manufacturers (e.g., Model Shipways and Bluejacket), is a lot better, but has its own problems. 

Experienced scale ship modelers find themselves gravitating toward super-hard, fine-grained woods, like boxwood, cherry, pear, and my personal favorite for planking, holly.  The grain in those species is so fine that it's almost invisible.  They come out of a table saw with a glassy-smooth finish, and with a little practice you can finish them in such a way that they actually do look like miniaturized wood.  But they're hard to find in quantity (lots of experienced modelers cut their own branches), and they're too expensive for the kit manufacturers to consider.

It's occurred to me more than once that the ideal sailing ship kit would be a multi-media one, using lots of different materials according to which one is best suited for the particular component of the ship.  It's entirely possible to cast a beautiful, accurate hull in resin (see below).  Deck planking - holly.  Figurehead and other carved ornamentation - cast resin or britannia metal.  Fittings (guns, winches, etc.) - cast metal or resin.  Deadeyes and blocks - cast britannia metal.  Masts, yards, and other spars - wood (preferably cherry or degama, but I'll live with birch if the manufacturer picks the pieces carefully).  Gunport hinges, rudder pintles, and other flat parts - photo-etched metal.

A couple of enterprising manufacturers have taken hesitant steps in this direction.  For a while, a few years ago, Model Shipways was selling its New York pilot schooner Phantom with a cast resin hull.  I bought one, mainly out of curiosity (and the price, on sale, was right).  I had some criticisms of the kit, but I thought MS was on the right track.  I had a lot of fun building it, and I'm pretty satisfied with the results:  http://www.hmsvictoryscalemodels.be/JohnTilleyPhantom/index.html .  Apparently I was in the minority, though.  Shortly after I finished mine, the kit was reissued with a machine-carved basswood hull.

And a small firm called Cottage Industry Models is offering a mixed-media nineteenth-century American revenue cutter:  http://www.cottage-industry-models.com/Alexander%20Hamilton.htm .  I saw this one close-up at an IPMS convention a couple of years ago; it certainly looked like a first-rate product.  The price is a bit steep for my wallet, but I don't think the company ownership is getting rich.

Do multi-media kits like that represent the future of sailing ship modeling?  I don't know.  I have to say that I think the plastic sailing ship kit is, for better or worse, just about dead, and I have decidedly mixed emotions about the ways in which the wood kit manufacturers are moving these days.  (That's a subject for another post - or five or six.) 

Some ship modelers turn up their noses at kits in general, contending that the only "legitimate" way to build a model is from scratch.  As a sometime-scratchbuilder, I'll readily concede that scratchbuilding offers rewards that working from kits does not.  But I also think there's a place for kits - especially as a means of introducing new modelers to the hobby.  I hope that, one way or another, serious, historically accurate sailing ship kits will be around for a long time - and I suspect that, in one form or another, they will be.

jtilley

Unfortunately the available literature on plastic sailing ship modeling - and sailing ship modeling for beginners in general - is pretty thin.

I can't agree with You at all. I have made only small list of books concerning ship (more precise - sailing ship) modeling.

General information on scale models of sailing ships (my favorites in bold):

Wolfram zu Mondfeld - Historische Schiffsmodelle

Orazio Curti - Modelli navali

Rolf Hoeckel - Modellbau von Schiffen des 16. und 17. Jahrhunderts

Bernard Froelich - l'Art du modelisme

Barrot De Gaillard - Construisez des modeles reduits

Charles G. Davis - Ship Models. How To Build Them

Charles G. Davis - The Ship Model Builder's Assistant

Frank Mastini - Ship Modeling Simplified

Giuseppe Noto Laddeca - Costruzione navale

J. H. Craine - Ship Modelling Hints and Tips

Julio M. Fouret - Iniziazione al modellismo

Luis Segal - Modelismo Naval

Robert Bruckshaw - Anatomy Of An Admiralty Model

Books on rigging and sailmaking (my favorites in bold):

Lennarth Peterssen - Rigging Period Ship Models

Roger Charles Anderson - The Rigging Of Ships In The Days Of The Spritsail Topmast, 1600 - 1720

Karl Heinz Marquardt - Bemastung und Takelung von Schiffen des 18. Jahrhunderts

George Biddlecombe - Art of Rigging

Franz Utffers - Handbuch der Seemanchaft

Charles Wilson - The Art of Sail-Making

David Steel - Elements and Practice of Rigging and Seamanship Vol. 1, 2

Books on plastic ships modeling:

Brian King - Advanced Ship Modelling

David Griffith - Ship Models from Kits

Mike Ashey - Building & Detailing Scale Model Ships

Additional there are a wery good series of books by Jean Boudriot, published by A.N.C.R.E. about French sailing ships; wery good series of books "Anatomy of the ship" about sailing ships, books on specified sailing ships etc etc etc.

Wojszwillo, I'm familiar with almost all the books you've listed - and my own small library contains quite a few others.  But my comment had to do with the literature intended for (a) beginners, and (b) plastic sailing ship modelers.

You've listed three works that deal with plastic models.  The only one that's really relevant to the beginner in plastic sailing ships is Mike Ashey's.  I haven't seen that one in several years, but as I recall, fewer than half of its 112 pages deal with sailing vessels.  David Griffith's book is entirely about twentieth-century warships; it says nothing whatever about sailing ships (though admittedly some of his techniques are relevant to them).  Brian King's  - as the title implies - deals with advanced scratchbuilding techniques (some of them indeed involving styrene), and almost entirely with steam-powered vessels.

Most of the others on your list have virtually nothing to do with plastic models.  (Quite a few of them were written long before the plastic kit came into existence.)  A few of them (Mastini's, for instance) do deal with kits - but almost exclusively with wood ones. 

Several of the others on your list (Steel and Biddlecombe, for instance) don't have any direct connection with model building.  They're invaluable references on the history of sailing ship technology, but they don't tell the reader anything about how to build models.  (The same, for that matter, applies to the Boudriot books.  M. Boudriot has no bigger admirer than me, but his books aren't about model building; they're about prototype ships.  The same applies to the Anatomy of the Ship series.  They're excellent references for model builders, but they don't say much - if anything - about how to build a ship model.

My comment stands.  The literature on sailing ship modeling for beginners - and plastic sailing ship modeling in particular - is thin.  There's a great deal of room for more good, up-to-date books on the subject.

What you've proven is that if you are multi-lingual, and if you want to build in wood, that there are books out there. Someone on the board hoasted by Finescale Modeler might be expected to be looking for plastic kits - and plastic kits of wooden ships/boats exist only in small quantity. What I find surprising is the lack of literature dedicated to plastic (including resin) models of metal ships. I bought Ashley's book when I started kit building and found it over the head of a beginner and showing its age for more advanced makers. The Griffith book is a new one on me and I bought it. (Thanks to someone for the tip: guess half the book deals with resin, and I'd like to give a resin ship a try.)

It's certainly true that ship builders are not without resources. FSM and other plastic modeling publications do articles. Wooden ship builders are in a different world and have their journals and clubs. (Ditto with model railroad fans and model car builders.) I've seen them in action and it's most impressive, but as noted in an earlier post a good static wooden model will take many months of work probably in a well stocked shop. (That's one aspect of plastic modeling we should appreciate - a spare table in the den and some pretty basic tools and you're good to go.) And I daresay that in our world that the net boards are more useful than books overall.

But if you really want to put this thing in perspective, go onto the book section of Amazon and do a search on "Building model airplanes", then do the same one on tanks. A blizzard of titles appear dedicated to the thousands of kits out there on these subjects. Thankfully ship builders can still spend their lives happily building plastic ship models - but our subjects will very likely be a vessel made of metal originally. That's the good news. But in the real world, plastic ship modelers are just not there in the same numbers as builders in other genres. Big deal. Sometimes we have to live with historic insanity - like no models of USS Enterprise (CV-6) - the most distinguished single warship in history - and lots of romantic losers like Bismarck, Hood, Yamato and Arizona. There's even a 350 scale Mutsu whose claim to fame is to be the largest warship to blow up while at anchor. (No CV-6 would be like having no model Spitfires or Panther Tanks. Fat chance of that.)  But those are minor gripes. Times are good for ship modelers,  just not so good for plastic model ship readers.

Eric

jtilley

Most of the others on your list have virtually nothing to do with plastic models.  (Quite a few of them were written long before the plastic kit came into existence.)  A few of them (Mastini's, for instance) do deal with kits - but almost exclusively with wood ones. 

Several of the others on your list (Steel and Biddlecombe, for instance) don't have any direct connection with model building.  They're invaluable references on the history of sailing ship technology, but they don't tell the reader anything about how to build models.  (The same, for that matter, applies to the Boudriot books.  M. Boudriot has no bigger admirer than me, but his books aren't about model building; they're about prototype ships.  The same applies to the Anatomy of the Ship series.  They're excellent references for model builders, but they don't say much - if anything - about how to build a ship model.

My comment stands.  The literature on sailing ship modeling for beginners - and plastic sailing ship modeling in particular - is thin.  There's a great deal of room for more good, up-to-date books on the subject.

Sorry, at this point i really don't understand You.

If You wan't make a true scale model of sailing ship, how do You will made rigging for it? "Usual common way" - as will look better and don't matter how that was on real ship?

Serious modelers in Europe (in USA too, i still believe) make their models as true scale models and make rigging exact, as this was made on real ship only in scale. For that porpose (how was rigging made in real ship) books by Steel and Biddlecombe are very usefull, as and others about rigging (knots, blocks etc), which i have listed. Riging on plastic sailing ship model is the same as on wooden sailing ship model and should be the same, as was in real ship...

No one plastic sailing ship kit is perfect and serious modeler should make a lot of parts from scratch - and he should have information, how one or another thing was made on real ship, and for that purpose are Mondfeld, Marquardt, Hoeckel, Boudriot and Anatomy of the ship series books very usefull.

If at Your mind we should read in books how to glue one part to another, how to apply putty to them or how to sand them - sorry then, and forget my list, becouse this list is not usefull at all for that purpose.

Anyway - glueing airplane model plastic parts is the same "technique" used, as and for glueing ship model plastic parts (and the same "techniques" are for puttying, sanding, painting), so everybody can read books "how to made xx plastic model - for beginners".

Well said, Ebergerud.  I would, however, offer one small caveat.  In the fifty-five years I've been building ship models there has never been a better time for the plastic ship modeler - provided that modeler's interest lies in twentieth-century warships.  The number and quality of kits being cranked out by Trumpeter, Dragon, and their ilk is, by comparison with the state of things fifteen or twenty years ago, really astonishing.  (The 1/700-scale enthusiast who wants to build a model of the Bismarck, just to give one example, can choose from four kits:  Aoshima, Trumpeter, Dragon, and now Revell Germany.  And a steady stream of 1/350 kits from Dragon and Hasegawa, appearing almost every month, is constantly stretching the limits of what we thought was possible in a mass-produced kit.  And take a look at the vast number of aftermarket parts available to the modern warship modeler.) 

The plastic sailing ship modeler, on the other hand, is just about forgotten.  As I said earlier in this thread, maybe that's not such a bad thing; there's room for argument about whether styrene plastic really is a good medium for building sailing ship models.  But for Olde Phogies like me, who can remember when the best of the Revell and Airfix sailing ships represented the state of the art in the plastic kit industry, it does seem kind of sad.

Wojszwillo, I think the language barrier is at work here.

My original comment was simply that the number of books on sailing ship models written for beginners, and specifically on plastic sailing ship models, is small.  You've said nothing to contradict that.

As Ebergerund pointed out, there's a massive literature available for beginners in plastic aircraft, armor, car, and railroad modeling.  There is no equivalent in ship modeling.

I've been building ship models since 1956 - and no, I don't need a book aimed at the beginner for myself.  But newcomers to the hobby do benefit from such works.  And I am fully aware of the uses to which the Steel, Biddlecombe, and other contemporary and modern works on nautical technology can be put to use by the ship modeler.  But this thread got started because a new Forum member was looking for suggestions about books for beginners. 

Yes, my spoken (or on this case - written) English is bad, but i understand everything what is written in English - but that does'nt matter.

Yes, in that point - there are only few books for beginners in plastic ship modeling - i agree.

But plastic ship modeling does'nt differs too much from plastic aircraft, armor etc modeling (or can be said - not differs at all concerning work with plastic parts) - the same techniques is used for gluing, puttying, sanding, airburshing or painting, whetering (if needed) etc. Beginner simply can read these books.

My list of books was about that part, how plastic sailing ship models differs from other plastic models - ie additional rigging works and additional scratch builded parts works (no one plastic sailing ship model is perfect).

   As an interested observer of the Forum, I have noticed the frustrations of plastic sailing ship kits and the notorious HECEPOB overpriced European plank and bulkhead kits that is the irate reaction of Professor Tilly. My answer to this problem, is to scatch build your model !   Easy you say ? Prove it !! To put my money where my mouth is, in the future, I intend to post a step-by step guide of how the British Revenue Cutter DILIGENCE,  was constructed just from plans without benifit of a kit. It can be done !

    The picture on the left is of the said cutter taken from a book in my library. The example on the right is of the work in progress that is not finished at this moment. When the project is completed, the results will be posted as an example of how one can overcome the limitations of  plastic kits.        

       Montani semper liberi !    Happy modeling to all and everfy one of you.

                               Crackers                             

For sure last post from yours truly. The issue really does revolve around the number of wooden ships made in plastic - very very few as opposed to the large number of metal ships made in plastic. And it wasn't always like this. I modeled until junior high (quit about 1963) and modeling was a huge hobby among the astonishing number of kids running around then. This was the fist generation of children that had their own money (thanks to WWII,  the GI Bill and the babby boom.) The country was filled with small "drug stores" that don't exist any more. Almost all of them had at least a few models. And it's true that most were planes (they were the cheapest for one thing - less than a dollar). But there were ships. And there were sailing ships. Santa Maria, Constitution, a generic "Viking Ship", Monitor and Merrimac (that's what we called it in Minnesota) Bon Homme Richard and  HMS Victory were common kits: I did them all. I remember Victory very well because I spent so long to paint those lovely yellow lines. (I think the last kit I did then was a large scale Civil War Kearsarge.) At present I'm building an Airfix Iron Duke because I want a Dreadnaught and that's the only one there. (I have Konig in the closet and Santa brought Mikasa.) It's a dreadful kit really. And maybe so was my "Old Ironsides" but I didn't know it. The good old days indeed.  

Eric

Although we sailing ship enthusiasts have said that the plastic sailing ship hobby is dead, we periodically witness a small resurrection with the release of a kit or two.  Revell of Germany released Batavia, Humbolt, the Hansa Cog, and the Dom Fernando IIe Gloria; several other sailing ships have been released by Russian companies, and Academy is rereleasing the old Imai kits.

Given the success of the HECEPOB kits, it seems reasonable to expect the plastic manufacturers to eventually expand to meet our needs.

I do agree with Marius on a key point; books that deal with specialized aspects  of sailing ship modeling should apply to wood, paper, or plastic models.  However, as we all have come to experience, plastic masts, yards, blocks, and eyebolts are best  modelled in another medium instead of plastic.  A book that deals with the unique problems encountered by plastic sailing ship modelers should be written.  Is anyone interested in coauthoring such a book with me?

Bill Morrison

EBergerud

At present I'm building an Airfix Iron Duke because I want a Dreadnaught and that's the only one there. (I have Konig in the closet and Santa brought Mikasa.)

Eric

What I would like to see is a little more active journalism in plastic sailing ship building, not tomey reference works on how a clipper was rigged. Like how to make HMS Surprise out of the Heller La Gloire, or that kind of thing that would appeal to a larger audience.

This forum is the best I've found, but the pace, like ship model building, can be a little slow.

    While I agree with you that there are new plastic kit releases, there are not enough choices to select from. What disgusts me more is the labeling of certain plastic kits as "pirate ships", a move that is blatent dishonesty on the part of the kit manufacturer. It's a wonder that the FTC has not gotten after them for false advertising.

       It is for the reason of lack of choice and historical dishonesty that I'm a proponant of scratch building. I have a great admiration for the late Harold M. Hahn, who issued 14 sailing ship plans of the Revolutionary War era, along with his book, "Ships of the American Revolution, and Their Models." His book, which is unfortunately out of print, and can only be found at specialized marine book sellers, details, in a step- by- step process, of how to scratch build model sailing ships from his plans. I have constructed one of the ships from his plans that is an exception of his Revolutionary War models. This model is the BOUNTY pictured above and now on display at the Jerome Public Library. I have seen illustrations of models from other model makers of Mr. Hahn's plans, and frankly, these models appear better than any expensive kit, especially the HECEPOB variety.

        Montani semper liberi !      Happy modeling to all and every one of you.

                                 Crackers                             

Crackers,

I remember writing to Lindberg about producing more sailing ship kits. I also made the point that, to the best of my knowledge, no pirate ship carried 100 guns (the real ship is the Royal Sovereign!)  I also get annoyed with more mainstream companies such as Revell marketing grossly inaccurate ships (HMS Beagle).  However, this has been much kicked about; I seriously doubt these manufacturers will change their ways.

Bill Morrison

warshipguy:  Dear Bill: Thanks for your desire to contact plastic modeling manufacturers. I applaud your efforts. You should get a standing ovation for your good works. Unfortunately, you are barking up a wrong tree. They will never change their marketing techniques, as this will probable hurt their bottom dollar profits. It is more profitable to sell fake "pirate" kits than be an honest broker. That's why there is some merit in scratch building sailing ship models

     Montani semper liberi !    Happy modeling to all and evry one of you.

                              Crackers                                

Just a couple more points.  I agree completely that scratchbuilding offers rewards one can never get from a kit - plastic, wood, or otherwise.  But I also believe quite firmly that there's a place in the world for kits.  For one thing, scratchbuilding is, for practical reasons, beyond reach for some people.  (To build a good-sized ship model from scratch you really need a workshop, where you can leave the work in progress set up while you work at your day job.  Lots of people - apartment-dwellers, for instance - simply don't have that kind of space, or the necessary arsenal of tools.)  Scratchbuilding requires more time than working from a kit - time that many modelers either don't have, or don't want to commit to the hobby.  Good kits (and not-so-good ones) have introduced lots of people into the hobby - people who never would have gotten into it if scratchbuilding had been the only option.

There are indeed quite a few similarities between the skills of plastic sailing ship modeling and those of other forms of plastic modeling.  But there also are quite a few differences.  (How many books on armor modeling deal with rigging?)  I continue to contend that a few more works, on the introductory level, about plastic ship modeling would be most welcome.

Quite a few years ago (in the late seventies and early eighties, I think), Airfix published a series of modeling books that dealt with specific Airfix kits.  The most popular ones concentrated on the company's 1/24-scale aircraft.  (There were books on the Spitfire, BF-109, P-51, Stuka, Hurricane, and maybe one or two others.  And there were several, by a gentleman named Noel C.L. Hackney, about sailing ships.  I remember the ones about the Victory, Cutty Sark, and Mayflower; there may have been others.  They were modestly priced, and frankly I had some reservations about them, but I thought Airfix was on the right track with those books.  Each contained a brief history of the ship in question (in considerably more depth than the instruction sheet provided), and step-by-step instructions, with dozens of photographs, for building the kit - to a considerably more elaborate standard than the kit instructions showed.  By the time the modeler was through with the project he'd picked up considerable basic information about how rigging and deck fittings work, and had been introduced, relatively painlessly, to lots of other fundamental aspects of ship modeling.   I wouldn't hold up the models illustrated in those books as examples of the highest level of the art, but I think they performed a valuable function in drawing quite a few newcomers into the hobby.  I wish those books would come back.

Whether, at this point in the history of the plastic sailing ship kit, any publisher would be interested in making an investment in a good, new book on the subject strikes me as highly dubious.  (If I were running such a publishing firm, I'm not at all sure I would.)  But I'd love to see it happen.