News from the Navy !

Nothing personal against your wife,  but I think the Admirals made the wrong decision...Again, nothing personal.

That's cool Jake...but can you explain some back ground here? There has never been a female on a Submarine patrol before? Interesting. Also, why does she need to qual in a sub for the work she does with dolphins?

oddmanrush

That's cool Jake...but can you explain some back ground here? There has never been a female on a Submarine patrol before? Interesting. Also, why does she need to qual in a sub for the work she does with dolphins?

I'm not Jake,  but I can begin to answer this question.

The Dolphins he references are the emblem in the US Navy that indicates that one is qualified in submarines.  Dolphins are also used by other world Navys to indicate their crew qualifications.  It does not refer to the marine mammal.

They are like a pilot's wings or the SWO water-wings.  You are not a submariner until you earn your Dolphins.

They are emblematic of the training and experience which the wearer has acheived.  Wearer must stand watches in most, if not all, departments (reactors? -- I'm not too sure if you're not a nuke).  Must understand the systems, and how to deal with casualties, and pass a test in order to be awarded their Doplhins.

The other submarine badge is the deterrent patrol badge.

This badge indicates that the wearer has participated in nuclear deterrrent patrols,  with a star being added in each hole for patrols acheived.   It is possible to have a deterrent badge without Dolphins, but it is rare.   You strive to be qualified in submarines by the end of your first patrol.

As to why females have not served on US submarines before,  up to the Ohios,  there were not enough bunk space to allow everyone to have their own bunk let alone some semblence of privacy  (hot bunking was common).   Putting females in the same bunk space as males was probably not a good idea on SSNs.     With the Ohios,  crews got their own bunks, and crew bunk space was established in the spaces between and around the missile tubes.  This would allow them to establish a female-only bunk pod and allow a bit more privacy. 

As a retired US Navy submariner and Independent Duty Hospital Corpsman who served onboard six submarines, I can shed some insight into this matter.  Women have never yet served onboard submarines. Women shipyard workers at Electric Boat in Groton, CT and at the Portsmouth Navy Shipyard sued the Navy back in the 1980's because workers who worked at building submarines were randomly selected  to go to sea during sea trials before delivery.  Their promotions depended upon their going.  Yet, women were prevented from doing so.  The women won.

I was on the first submarine to take women workers to sea, the USS Michigan SSBN 727).  They have since been doing so.

However, taking them as actual crew members has been problematical not for privacy issues (there is no privacy on submarines), but rather for medical reasons.  The Bureau of Medicine and Surgery has prevented their doing so because of the possibility of ectopic (or tubal) pregnancy, a common enough occurence that could result in death if not surgically treated promptly. Submarines do not carry physicians onboard, even if they did, one would probably not diagnose the condition promptly enough to save her life, even if the surgical capabilities existed. They do not.   This situation could be especially acute if it occurred under the polar icecap.

Apparently, BUMED removed  its objections.

As for the Dolphins, there is an intense one-year qualifications program as well. The SWO and Air Warfare devices are based on the submarine qualifications program (The SWO crossed-butterknives did not come about until the 1970's).  As for watches, coners (forward, non-nuke personnel) do not stand Engine Room watches.

The plans I have read for female berthing involves using one of the officers' three-man bunkrooms.  I am not sure about head facilities because on the two Trident boats on which I served, the Officers have one head, The CO and XO share one, the Chief's have theirs, and the crew has one with one watchstander's head one level down from the Control Room.  That is all; they must serve a 163 man crew.  As far as the Fast Attack boats go, they have the same arrangements, only smaller.

When we took women to sea with us, they shared the same berthing and the same heads. There was no privacy; everyone was expected to act as adults. Amazingly, everyone did so.

Bill Morrison

warshipguy

As a retired US Navy submariner and Independent Duty Hospital Corpsman who served onboard six submarines, I can shed some insight into this matter.  Women have never yet served onboard submarines. Women shipyard workers at Electric Boat in Groton, CT and at the Portsmouth Navy Shipyard sued the Navy back in the 1980's because workers who worked at building submarines were randomly selected  to go to sea during sea trials before delivery.  Their promotions depended upon their going.  Yet, women were prevented from doing so.  The women won.

I was on the first submarine to take women workers to sea, the USS Michigan SSBN 727).  They have since been doing so.

However, taking them as actual crew members has been problematical not for privacy issues (there is no privacy on submarines), but rather for medical reasons.  The Bureau of Medicine and Surgery has prevented their doing so because of the possibility of ectopic (or tubal) pregnancy, a common enough occurence that could result in death if not surgically treated promptly. Submarines do not carry physicians onboard, even if they did, one would probably not diagnose the condition promptly enough to save her life, even if the surgical capabilities existed. They do not.   This situation could be especially acute if it occurred under the polar icecap.

Apparently, BUMED removed  its objections.

As for the Dolphins, there is an intense one-year qualifications program as well. The SWO and Air Warfare devices are based on the submarine qualifications program (The SWO crossed-butterknives did not come about until the 1970's).  As for watches, coners (forward, non-nuke personnel) do not stand Engine Room watches.

Bill Morrison

Thanks for enlightening me Bill and Ed. I thought he had been referring to the real dolphins as I'm aware the Navy uses them to detect explosives under water. I had no idea they were used as an emblem to denote qualifications. As far as not allowing women on subs goes, I had assumed it was due to the cramped and rather non private environment but I did not know there were health and safety concerns. Very interesting.

Women have been serving on warships and auxilliary ships as officers and crew for almost three decades now and have done well.  I know of no ship with a dedicated OB/GYN.  Destroyers and smaller ships have had them with no physician onboard; these ships have Independent Duty Hospital Corpsmen.  Women have commanded ships as well.

I remember well the Navy of the 1970's and before; women were not really well-regarded as officers or sailors because they were denied the ability to go to sea. I believe that they have proven fully capable and should be able to serve on all types of ships, even submarines.

Bill Morrison

warshipguy

Women have been serving on warships and auxilliary ships as officers crew for almost three decades now and have done well.  I know of no ship with a dedicated OB/GYN.  Destroyers and smaller ships have had them with no physician onboard; these ships have Independent Duty Hospital Corpsmen.  Women have commanded ships as well.

I remember well the Navy of the 1970's and before; women were not really well-regarded as officers or sailors because they were denied the ability to go to sea. I believe that they have proven fully capable and should be able to serve on all types of ships, even submarines.

Bill Morrison

Figures . . . It takes 7 Admirals to decide what one Chief could decide quickly . . .

Bill Morrison

During the Spring of '41 I went on a war-patrol with U-96 as an observor...we took a couple of female medical auxileries with us. This was on a type IX boat but it was still very cramped...I must say that their presence made the patrol more bearable...

All in all I don't see what the big deal is...if a women understands the potential risks, both in the environment and health, then I don't see what should preclude her from being aboard a sub.

This is why women should not be aboard subs.  It's a combat readiness issue.  If a significant number of crew members have to be evacuated for non combat related reasons, readiness suffers and others have to pick up the load.

http://www.nytimes.com/1991/04/30/us/36-women-pregnant-aboard-a-navy-ship-that-served-in-gulf.html

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3912/is_200009/ai_n8908650/pg_4/

Actually, the big deal was never about whether or not they could do the job, nor was it about privacy. It was primarily about their safety and health. A secondary issue dealt with the effects on the wives and husbands of the crew.

In other words, many wive's groups (and mothers of unmarried crewmen) made a point that they did not like the idea of their husbands "shacking up" with women in the cramped quarters. Imagination runs deep  . . . few took stock that there is nowhere onboard that a couple could hide and the bunks are quite small.

When we took women to sea, we had far too many onboard for the available bunks.  To quarter the riders, we used a common practise of placing mattresses on the torpedo skids. That is where we bunked the EB riders, both men and women. And, as I've said before, adults rose to the occassion and acted like adults. There were no problems.

Bill Morrison

warshipguy

 It was primarily about their safety and health.

Both of those stories are completely one-sided. The credibility they offer is a complete and utter JOKE ! My wife and I have delayed starting our family due to this Sub patrol and her looming IA (Individual Augmententation) next year to either Iraq or Afghanistan. The 7 Admirals who decided my wive's fate to go on this patrol spoke to 49 Chiefs and 55 Sub qualified Officers from Nuke Power School where my wife was previously an instructor. All the officers and chiefs agreed that if any woman should get to go it should be her ! Those stories only mention Enlisted women who dodge deployments through pregnancy not female officers. The stories don't mention how many men get out of deployments by using drugs. But I will tell you 15-16% annually ! The 9 or so women to go on this patrol are all officers and 6 I believe are recent Naval Academy grads. What do those stories mention about a precentage of them getting out of deployments ? NONE ! Canada and Austrailia already have female submariners why not the US Navy ?

That's just ignorant. I have two life long friends one who is the EDC aboard the USS Nebraska the other who is a nuke MM aboard USS Henry M. Jackson. Both served with her at Naval Nuclear Power Training Command. They both feel that she should be first to acheive this. She left their with a Commedation, a Navy and Marine Corps medal as well a sailor of the quarter 6 times ! Then it was Naval Postgraduate another Commendation, and NAVSEA ship systems award, to top it off she got 2 masters degree's in our short 2 years there. Your right they made the wrong Decision ? Not taking it personal though...

Manny,

Men do not suffer from ectopic pregnancy, which is virtually non-diagnosable with the medical resources available onboard submarines. Even MD's would have difficulties.  I am not sure just what has changed to cause BUMED to change its opposition, but that was the essential reason for its opposition.

Bill Morrison

Jake,

Tell your wife from me, a retired Senior Chief Hospital Corpsman (Submarine Service) that I am proud of her accomplishments and I wish her well!

Bill Morrison

Will do Bill ! She's actually in Groton, through Saturday ! Graduation is Friday, we haven't seen each other in over a month. Thank you for your service. I work at IMF here at Bangor, do you work at Groton? If so we might have crossed paths. Last time I was there I was removing the electrical systems inside the USS Hartford's sail. The boat that tried surfacing under an amphib in the straights of Hormuz !

Actually, I now teach high school history in Hartford.  I retired from the Navy in 1996 from the USS Maine (SSBN 741)(Blue) in Kings Bay, GA.  I also served onboard USS Ethan Allen (SSBN/SSN 608) (She was the first operating boat out of Bangor, WA), USS Michigan (SSBN 727)(Gold), USS Pasadena (SSN 752), USS Albuquerque (SSN 706) and USS Dallas (SSN 700).  My kids were born in Bremerton, and we bounced back and forth between Bangor and Groton.

Like your wife, I earned two Master's degrees while active duty and my first of two Ph.D's. (Not bad for an enlisted man!)  Since retirement, my son enlisted, serving at Whidbey Island in a P-3 squadron.  I live about 16 miles northwest of Groton but go to the SUBASE at least twice a week.

On which boat will she serve?

Bill

Were not entirely sure what boat yet. The Navy has slowed down the orders process due to cutbacks at Millington. Your lucky to get them as far out as 2 months. In most cases it's about 2-3 weeks notice ! The rumor mill at the yard is that USS Maine will go first for the berthing configuration change. Followed by USS Michigan, USS Pennsylvania, and an East Coast boat were not sure. Yes USS Michigan an SSGN will get the package too. This will have women going out on deployments for up to 6-8 months or as short as a boomer patrol. Were thinking that the King's Bay boat will likely be a GN as well. But the Navy changes plans like underwear so who knows in the end.

I remember hearing about the plans to convert the early Tridents to SSGN configuration shortly before I retired. I wish that I had had the opportunity to serve aboard one. I'm envious!  Good luck to her!

Bill

    As a former Navy man, who served aboard the U.S.S. ANTIETAM, as an IC 2/C, when the ship was deployed to the Med and later in naval air training at Pensacola FL, in the late 1950s, I think the whole idea of women serving on subs under close social quarters is totally DUMB. Now, sailors do not have to go ashore on liberty for their afternoon cherry, they can have it on ship !!!!!

  Montani semper liberi !       Happy modeling to all and every one of you.

                        Crackers                             

Shipbuilderjake

Will do Bill ! She's actually in Groton, through Saturday ! Graduation is Friday, we haven't seen each other in over a month. Thank you for your service. I work at IMF here at Bangor, do you work at Groton? If so we might have crossed paths. Last time I was there I was removing the electrical systems inside the USS Hartford's sail. The boat that tried surfacing under an amphib in the straights of Hormuz !

Hey.. dumb question... what is IMF and you say Bangor ? Bangor , where ?

Crackers,

Sincerely and with all due respect, have you ever served on a submarine?  If so, you would understand that what you are saying is absolutely impossible.  It also insults every man and woman who serves this country honorably.

This kind of thinking reminds me of the thinking prior to Truman's integration act; thinking that held that African-Americans, Philippino's, and other minorities were only capable of holding menial jobs in the service. That thinking was proven wrong; so is the thinking that woman are only capable of servicing men.

How do you answer the fact that women have served our navy well in every capacity except on submarine service. Are you suggesting that those women who have been Commanding Officers of warships are there only to have sex with the male officers in the Wardroom, or the Chief Petty Officers in the Goat Locker, or even  the crew?  What about the other women in the crew? Is that all they are good for?

The proven answer is a resolute NO!  They have proven themselves to this Senior Chief Petty Officer.  I have known extremely professional Officers, Chiefs, and lower Enlisted Personnel of both genders who serve proudly; similarly, I have also known the slugs of both genders.

Bill Morrison

Hey Jake, best of luck to your wife! Don't let the fact that some people can't see beyond their preconceptions to recognize the goals and achievements of others bother you.

warshipguy

Manny,

Men do not suffer from ectopic pregnancy, which is virtually non-diagnosable with the medical resources available onboard submarines. Even MD's would have difficulties.  I am not sure just what has changed to cause BUMED to change its opposition, but that was the essential reason for its opposition.

Bill Morrison

But men are susceptible to other life-threatening conditions that cannot be treated with the limited medical facilities aboard a sub and which occur at similar frequencies to ectopic pregnancy.

Ectopic pregnancies occur in about 1% of pregnancies and half of these resolve without treatment. Sorry, using that to justify denying submarine service to women doesn't pass the 'sniff test'...

EDIT: The 'sniff test' specifically referring to the BUMED, not the information that you posted, Bill.

warshipguy

Crackers,

Sincerely and with all due respect, have you ever served on a submarine?  If so, you would understand that what you are saying is absolutely impossible.  It also insults every man and woman who serves this country honorably.

Well said, Bill.  Thanks.

   I do agree with Bill Morrison that women have served honorably in naval servive. My own mother is a case in point. During the First World War, she was a clerk/typist in the Navy Department in Washington, D.C. when Franklin D. Roosevelt was Assistant Secretary of the Navy under Josephus Daniels. At that time, the genders were supervised to prevent any impropriety on the job. As a former sailor, who spent months at sea, the number one topic on the minds of my fellow shipmates,  was, if they could have any action once they had liberty in port. When females are allowed to serve onboard ship, there have been cases of sexual misconduct which the Navy has quietly hushed up and swept under the rug. Women serving in subs is even a more ethical and moral problem. When political correctness triumphs over practical common sense, then there will be cause for trouble. I stand by my comments. bbrowniii is right in quoting Edmund Burke.

  Montani semper liberi !     Happy modeling to all and every one of you.

                Crackers