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Zvezda Black Swan 1/72

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  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Tuesday, June 19, 2012 6:58 PM

Thanks, Paul!  I've been working hard on it, and I feel like it's looking pretty good so far....now that I've done a few ships, it's getting easier to do!  I may have mentioned that I'm trying to make this one as *awesome* as I can, so I'm really putting a lot of attention into it.  I don't expect to do another ship after this...at least not for awhile...

My next step is the upper deck guns and associated *rigging* parts...bummer there's only enough to run half of them out...I'm going to alternate 3 in/3 out on each side.

As far as the gunport rigging goes....all I can say is SHEESH!  I'm dreading it, too!  It would be super hard to get them all tied and looking the same, especially without accidentally breaking them off as I go....My plan is to (when I get to that step) practice some new knotting techniques on some doors OFF the ship until I find a way that will be easy to repeat...I doubt I'll end up using the same technique illustrated in the instructions.  Hopefully, one of us can come up with a good way to do it....I've never had to rig gundoors before.  Even the task of attaching the doors to the hull is going to be SUPER hard (Suggestion: Build a jig or stand to keep the ship on it's side so you can get the doors on straight)...they also have little (or none at all!) contact area to the hull, so getting them secured and stable and uniform will be a challenge, not to mention the rigging, at which time even the slightest tug could break one loose!  I'm considering using some kind of wire to support each one to the hull...I'll be sure to share my ideas when I get something that seems to work!

*Here's an idea:  Run a slipknot through both holes of the gunport with the tagline leading UP toward the support peg (I 22)....then just wrap the tagline around the support peg a couple times, hit it with some glue, and voila!  Could even run the slipknot through the ports (and glue the loop knot at your desired size) before gluing the ports on, to avoid breaking them back off AND it would be easier to ensure uniformity of loop size.  Don't know if that's understandable!

As far as knot glue goes, common practice is thinned out Elmer's white glue, or CA.   I use Super Thin CA for most of my knots, because it dries quick, and it gets *capillaried* into the thread very well.  I usually put a couple drops onto a glossy cardboard square (like a cereal box cut into pieces, I have a stack of those in my drawer) and use a toothpick to get a little and touch it to the knot...it instantly gets drawn into the knot and hardens.  Then I trim of any excess thread and Ta-Da!  White glue takes a while to dry, but I use it for certain situations...I've heard some people say CA isn't right for this reason or that reason, but I like it.

I will mention (again) the importance of getting a puck of Beeswax for your thread....plain rigging thread can be a pain to work with when you try to route it and knot it, and it looks fuzzy when untreated....get some beeswax from a craft store, it comes in a little plastic holder with slots to run the thread through, and it makes the rigging go WAY better!!  Seriously, I didn't use it on my first ship, but I did on my second one, and I can say I'll never rig another line without waxing it first!

Dave

 

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  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Carmel, CA
Posted by bondoman on Tuesday, June 19, 2012 7:10 PM

This is hard to follow, but interesting. The lifts for the ports would normally go through holes in the hull and be made fast to cleats either on the underside of the beams above, or down to a cleat on the rib on each side of the port.

Also, there's NO harm in adding hinges. I always do, out of thin brass cut in a basic strap. Two per port. or one piece like a door hinge or an angle, across the top. One big benefit is that it makes the connection soft enough so that when you DO wang it, and you will, it bends but does not break off. That's prototypical too, at least on Nelson's ships.

I wouldn't try to get them all lined up perfectly either, I think it looks better if they're not.

  • Member since
    February 2006
Posted by Grymm on Tuesday, June 19, 2012 8:38 PM

Following this thread with quite a bit of enjoyment.  I love the hull colors, and the oil wash makes a big difference.  Great work!

Now, as for the cannon port doors and their odd lifts.  Bondoman is quite correct that the lifts normally just go through holes above the port.  But, the Black Pearl (Black Swan is the same kit) is not your normal ship.  It's a movie ship.  In all three PotC movies you can clearly see the odd beams sticking out above each port.    After some searching I found reference that during tests before filming the first movie, the ports couldn't be opened fast enough for scene demands.  So the fix was to add beams with pulleys for the ropes to run through.  So instead of the pull coming from straight up, the pull now came from up and outward, allowing the doors to very fast.  The downside of this was that the doors could only open to just above horizontal.

While I was building my Black Pearl Diorama I kept snapping the little buggars off.  So I just did away with them, drilled holes in the hull and rigged the doors the normal way.   It's not "movie" faithful, but it looks nice and there's no little pieces to break off.  If you do insist on using them, I would actually advise drilling holes just above the little pieces, file a slight groove in the end, and run your rope up through the groove and into the hull.  This will look more authentic than just tying them to the little plastic piece.

On the subject of glue, I use something called Tac Glue.  It's a hobby glue.  Think of it as a very strong Elmers Glue.  I dilute it and coat my rigging knots and ends with it.  It dries clear and knots/siezings will not come undone, as I have found happens quite frequently with Elmer's Glue.

And if you can't get thin brass for the hinges, I would suggest paper.  Not regular paper, but cardstock.  The kind normally used for papercraft.  It's thick, takes paint well, and glues to plastic using the above Tac Glue.  I've used the paper for a variety of different parts. 

Great work.  Keep the pics coming...

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Carmel, CA
Posted by bondoman on Wednesday, June 20, 2012 12:36 AM

Grymm you make a great point. Paper is a very good modeling material as it takes paint like a dream, is easy to cut and comes in really thin stock.

So is soda/ beer can stock.

I get a better idea of the kit situation. It sounds like each gun port (actually the gun port cover or lid) has a pair of what would be called cat heads so that the crew doesn't have to push the lid out from the vertical for the lifts to have some leverage.

That's a silly detail that I cannot recall seeing before on a real ship, just saying and it probably exists somewhere, but I couldn't say.

If it's the cathead ye want, lads, the line needs to be rove over the pulley and back inta the gun room.

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Wednesday, June 20, 2012 9:49 AM

Bondoman brings up a factor that's always kept me from getting interested in "models from the movies":  the people who design "ships" for Hollywood frequently have no idea what real ships look like.  I've never been a big fan of the "Pirates of the Caribbean" flicks; living here in the middle of Blackbeard Country, and working for a school whose athletic teams are called the ECU Pirates, I got thoroughly sick of the subject of piracy at least thirty years ago.  One thing I do remember about the "Black Pearl" in at least one of the movies is that its maimast appeared to be growing out of the middle of its capstan.  That's high on my list of Most Ridiculous Things Hollywood Has Ever Done To Ships.

I can think of a few movie ships that, in my mind, would be worth building models of:  U-96 from "Das Boot," H.M.S. Compass Rose from "The Cruel Sea," the U.S.S. San Pablo from "The Sand Pebbles,"  the  We're Here from "Captains Courageous,"  the Andrea Gail from "The Perfect Storm," the U.S.S. Reluctant from Mister Roberts, and some others I've forgotten at the moment.  In at least two of those cases, the  kit manufacturers seem to agree with me.  (Several plastic U-boat kits come with markings from the movie, and Bluejacket offers a We're Here - though it appears to be a recycled Bluenose.)  I'm omitting such vessels as H.M.S. Bounty and H.M.S. Surprise, which were real ships - with authentic plans available and no need to worry about  copyright laws.

The Zvezda "Black Swan" certainly appears to be an outatanding kit; it looks far more like a real ship than the...thing...in the movie did.  I wonder what line of logic the kit designers used in designing it; they obviously didn't pay much attention to what appeared in the movie.  (At least I don't think the kit has a capstan wrapped around its mainmast.)  I hope the kit makes lots of money for the manufacturer, and that those extremely talented designers and artisans will be turned loose on a genuine scale model.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Wednesday, June 20, 2012 11:36 AM

Thanks for chiming in, guys!  It's fun to have some discourse, and objective input!

Grymm, you're right about trying the gundoor line to the end of that support peg...it will probably look funny, and I need to find a better way to make that happen...I noticed the pictures on the box, presumably of the kit built by professionals, has these gundoor lines totally omitted....kind of tells me that they may have tried a few times, failed,  and finally resigned to leaving them out!  Running it through a hole above the *peg* into the hull would be better, but now that the hull is sealed up, I don't know how I'd get it secured??  Anyway, I have some time before I reach that step, so maybe I'll keep a couple of the doors on the worktable so I can keep it in mind, and practice a few ideas...

B-Man...I like the idea of light cardstock, or thin copper/brass material for hinges....I definitely will need to fortify the doors to keep them in place.  Ship rigging has been the major undertaking in my (limited) experience of ship modeling,  but I can say that overcoming some of this kit's shortfalls (which are few enough) will test my creativity, practicality, and patience!  Seems these gundoors will be a Pain!  I'm sure the final solution will be suitable, though...

Jtilley, I have to say I'm a bit surprised to hear from you on this thread....I've perused a number of subjects on this forum, and many posts made by yourself...something that doesn't surprise me is your distaste for *hollywood* ships!  Indeed, the capstan on the Zvezda Black Swan encapsulates the Main Mast!  Ridiculous?  Maybe....Do I really care?  Nope.  You're right that the kit is outstanding, very high quality of detail and manufacture, well-fitting parts, minimal flash or warpage....While I'm not a big fan of the PotC movies, I think they're somewhat entertaining (the first one was good, anyway)...my reasons for building this kit are that I thought it looked neat, was a recent release, seemed to be well-made, and I wanted to work on something of a bigger scale...1/72 seems to be pretty big for ship kits.  I've mentioned before that authenticity isn't a concern of mine...my enjoyment is of imagination and creativity.  I once built a *model* of the Millenium Falcon from Star Wars....nobody could claim that to be *authentic*....but I still really liked building it.  I suppose for those who are interested in Real Ships, or various particulars of historical significance, authenticity is important and, who knows, perhaps someday my own perspective will shift toward valuing realism.  For now, however, I'm content to try new things that pique my fancy, and hopefully learn a few new things along the way.

It's a little hard to tell if your input is coming from a place of simply sharing a different perspective, or if it dances the line of derision...from what I know of you, you seem to be a respectful, informative, and pleasant enough guy....

BTW, I really enjoyed the movie Master and Commander, and I do have my eyes open for a suitable model kit of the Surprise...don't know for sure WHY I want to build it, but I just kinda do....

And I also share your hope that Zvezda's lineup includes some more compelling (and equally well-made) subjects in the future!

Thanks,

David

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     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
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Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

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  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Wednesday, June 20, 2012 12:23 PM

Well, I guess I am sort of dancing the line of derision - toward the people who made the movies.  But NOT the people who designed the model - or those who decide to build it.   To each his own. 

Every time one of the POTC flicks shows up on cable (I liked the first one best too, by the way), I can't help thinking how far that money would have gone toward another Patrick O'Brian movie or something similar.  It really seems remarkable that, in view of the millions of  non-fiction books and historical novels about sailing ship warfare that have been sold over the years, so few of them have been made into really good movies.  (Off the top of my head I can only think of three:  "Damn the Defiant," "The Bounty," and "Master and Commander.")  And it does, I admit, bug me a little bit when, in this age when the plastic kit manufacturers have virtually given up on the sailing ship, a fine company like Zvezda decides to produce a state-of-the-art, large-scale kit representing not a seventeenth-century warship, or a British sailing frigate, or an American clipper, but a "pirate ship" that never existed.  (Another forum member suggested that it might be possible to convert the kit into a scale model of a real ship; that's certainly worth exploring.)  

The bottom line in such matters, of course, is $$$$.  I accepted a long time ago that, in my taste in both movies and models, I'm in a tiny minority.  But it does seem like the Hollywood moguls and kit manufacturers could toss a few crumbs in the direction of serious history enthusiasts and sailing ship modelers once in a while.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Wednesday, June 20, 2012 12:57 PM

Well put, sir.

 

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     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Wednesday, June 20, 2012 9:56 PM

*Helpful Hint*

Paul, Beware!

I got the upper deck cannons mounted tonight, with much frustration and headscratching!  First off, I altered my plan of alternating in/out, and went with a more "organic" feel....the trouble came when installing the plastic rigging parts for the guns which were *in*....the parts were a little too short!  Some of them don't even reach to the inner railing, where they're supposed to connect!  They're very close, but I think it sucks...about 1/16" away from the rail....they're just hanging from the carriage glue points, but fortunately they're light enough that they don't sag or anything.

I have a suggestion to those following our footsteps of the Black Swan build...the best idea I can think of (and I didn't do this) is to shave off the locator pin on the bottom of the carriage for any gun being *in*, put the gun in place temporarily, glue the rigging parts on to the gun (but NOT to the rail), let them dry (mostly), then lift the gun out, put some glue on the bottom of the wheels (I sanded the bottoms of my wheels down so they were semi-flat for an even contact surface) and the ends of the rigging parts, and then put them in place so that the rigging parts will contact the inner rail.  I repeat:  The locator holes for guns *in* will put your guns slightly too far away from the rail to get a solid connection, in most cases...

It was a pain in the butt....here's a couple of pics:

[View:/themes/fsm/utility/IMG_0270:550:0]

 

[View:/themes/fsm/utility/IMG_0271:550:0]

 

I need to do add a little more cement, and do some touch up painting, but they're pretty much how I'm going to use them...sorry the pics are a little wonky, I didn't edit them at all.

Another tip:  glue the little rear rigging part on first, let it dry, then commence with the rest of your assembly....they don't like to fit under after the gun is in place....

And make sure you're in a patient mood when you tackle this part of the job!

 

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    February 2006
Posted by Grymm on Thursday, June 21, 2012 6:59 PM

Hi JTilley,

I can certainly see where you're coming from with your disdain for pirates and movie "liberties" with the subject, but I have to say I don't mind Hollywood doing so since it, in a small way, keeps period sea-faring alive.  While Mr. Depp takes the stereotype to a new level, seeing a youngster grab a sailing ship model instead of the IPad makes me forgive Hollywood's liberties...

And yes, the Black Swan kit is absolutely outstanding, with virtually no flash, fabulous engraved lines, and tons of details.  And yes, it does have the capstan wrapped around the mainmast.    But I'm not sure you're aware that the Black Swan Kit IS the "thing" from the movie.  The Black Swan is the Black Pearl, but with a giant swan figurehead instead of the original.  Other than the figurehead it's the exact same mold as the Black Pearl kit which is a very close representation of the movie ship except for the bulkhead to the Captain's Quarters.   Zvezda got into trouble with Disney for not actually PAYING for the PotC license.   Only a few thousand kits made it out to market before Zvezda got burned.  It's actually pretty funny because if you look at the Bowsprit on the Black Pearl kit you can clearly see "Disney" molded on it.  So what Zvezda did was change the colors and figurehead, then give it another name.   

Also, it appears the designers heavily modified an existing Zvezda mold.  The vast majority of the design work was on the outer appearance of the hull only.  The deck itself is close but the afor mentioned bulkhead is completely wrong (I had to toss it and build a correct version from scratch) and I had to move fife rails that were in the wrong place compared the movie.  Then, the included longboat (which is fantastic by itself by-the-way) is actually an older Zvezda kit itself they decided to include.  Another clue is an extra fife rail included on the sprue that does not go anywhere on the kit.   The rigging is also "off" just a little.  While the rigging does look factual to a 17th or early 18th Century vessel, it does not match the movie ship completely which had fairly factual rigging when viewed from afar that magically dissappearred when closeups on deck were required.

So I'm thinking someone at Zvezda looked at an existing company kit (that's usually only available in Russia/Europe) and thought "hey, with a little effort we can make a reasonable Black Pearl!" and conviced superiors to actually do it, only to get into trouble when Disney found out and wanted their licensing fee.  But I must say that both kits are equally fantastic, since they are the exact same kit except for a changed out figurehead.   I've built the Black Pearl (with many scratchbuilds to make it more movie worthy) and the Black Swan on this thread is looking fantastic.

It's amazing how changing the colors can so totally change the appearance of the ship

Grymm

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Carmel, CA
Posted by bondoman on Thursday, June 21, 2012 11:57 PM

Following this discussion with interest.

I am firmly on the side of accuracy, no matter who is the advocate.

Also in the spirit of full disclosure I have an intense dislike of pirates and all things piratical. Kind of like celebrating gang warfare here in Oakland.

But I do understand fantasy; the references to Sci Fi are fair enough, and anytime I am in Disneyland I make it a point to take a ride on... Pirates of the Caribbean, of course.

I think a very careful consideration in a ship model is the amount of time it takes to build one. I have built about five in the "modern era" i.e. the one in which I had skills worth applying. And maybe three more in the ways.

Each and every one has been a learning experience. For my T2 I bought plans from the National Archive that gave me all of the information needed to correct the egregious piping Revell cast onto the deck of the San Juan Capistrano.

My Borodino led me to the public library for three or four books about the Second Pacific Squadron.

My CV-8 Hornet produced a set of frame plans from Floating Drydock to (try) to correct the hull.

So think about building subjects that lead you to learn about things outside of the box, as they say.

 

 

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Lacombe, LA.
Posted by Big Jake on Friday, June 22, 2012 7:42 AM

Bondo,

I read your comments

"Also in the spirit of full disclosure I have an intense dislike of pirates and all things piratical. Kind of like celebrating gang warfare here in Oakland." 

I found that truly funny and of course fitting. Having said that, at least the Pirates has a semi-formal code of honor among themselves and others, Gang members still have not figured that out yet, whoa to us when they do.  Drugs help us in this cause (at least sometimes)

However I might add that in New Orleans we celebrate them, because they sure as h*ll help save our butts when we needed it against our Counsins across the pond;).

I have not been modeling like I had in the past becasue of my new Council Job, but I will buy the model and put it away for a while.  I need to finished up the 1/75 Chebec still. I thind th detail impressive.

Jake Groby

 

 

 

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Friday, June 22, 2012 8:42 AM

Grymm-

It's interesting that you mention the possibility of this kit being a re-vamped version of some other kit.  I would guess that at least some of this kit could be *recycled*.  I don't know anything about the mold's history, but I did notice something that may be suspicious:  If you look at my recent pics of the deck with the cannons installed, do the cannons seem to be *too big*, or of a larger scale?  I was thinking they seemed to be sort of oversized...for example, the ladders leading up and down on the decks are literally right beside the closest guns....seems that anyone trying to maneuver these ladders, or even to get around on the deck, would be tripping over these giant guns! 

But then, maybe that's just how big 1/72 cannons are??

And by the way, as long as the subject of pirates (and people's opinions thereof) keep coming up...I'll offer my $0.02...

I've always preferred ninjas over pirates.

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Lacombe, LA.
Posted by Big Jake on Saturday, June 23, 2012 7:14 AM

I read the commend on the size of the cannons, but the size of the guns were big.  here is a link to see the full size mock up of the USS Constitution in the Baton Rouge Naval Museum.  Not eht size of the 32 pounder.  These guns and carrages were monsters.  I thinks the casue is simply that were don't see them in a "real world" perspective, so it a bit har to relate.  these were teh 32 pnder.  the 24's had the same mount.   

http://good-times.webshots.com/album/562346128fpcYZa

 

 

 

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Saturday, June 23, 2012 8:45 AM

Dang!  I guess they ARE big!

 

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Saturday, June 23, 2012 8:55 AM

*Helpful Hint*

*Red Alert*

Another tricky set of parts....this time it's I 17...these little buggers are the tiny knuckle-shaped parts that go onto the channels and hold the chainplates to them....I hope I have the terminology right!

Anyways, they fit too tightly...I broke a couple trying to wedge them into place, then I went through and scraped/sanded the rest down at the "waist", and they STILL gave me some trouble...plus I must have lost one along the way, too, because I came up short by one piece. Note that some of them went into place without damage, but it doesn't take much pressure to snap these little parts in two.   I ended up repairing the ones I could, and making a couple from scratch out of sprue material. 

Word to the wise:  Be careful to check the fit of EACH of these parts, and thoroughly re-shape them if necessary.

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    December 2005
Posted by PTConsultingNHR on Saturday, June 23, 2012 10:50 AM

Stupid Question Alert ...

Is that the BLACK SWAN from the PIRATES OF CARRIBANEAN movies  or is it a real ship?

 

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Saturday, June 23, 2012 12:58 PM

It's a model based on the Black Pearl, from PotC film series...there's a Russian version of this kit which is the Black Pearl, but they had to change it slightly for the US release.  Coincidentally, Keira Knightley's character in those movies is named Elizabeth Swan, maybe that's where they got the idea for the name change...so no, it's not a real ship.

 

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Saturday, June 23, 2012 1:06 PM

Thankfully, I got back on track after the latest SNAFU of parts difficulty, and the channels look pretty good...the wash is drying now, and I'll install them later this weekend...hopefully after this step, and the (dreaded) looming gunport door installation, things should go smoothly for awhile.  The longboat is coming up, and it's like a whole model kit in itself, with oars, and a sail, some accessories!

My next step is the gammoning on the bowsprit...my previous model ships had molded gammoning, so this will be my first attempt at winding actual rigging thread around the bowsprit and beakhead...I think it'll look awesome!  But I first need to fuly understand the technique....seems that wrapping the line around it should be simple enough, but it looks like it terminates in a *seized* section of loops around the outside....

any advice would be appreciated, but I'll probably look around for info on here later today...gotta get my gammoning on!

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    June 2012
  • From: Kidderminster, U.K.
Posted by Jockster on Saturday, June 23, 2012 6:16 PM

This could go on a bit!

I've only started on this thread tonight and like a good book, could stop until I read everything!

Paul, David, it's great watching both your builds and I look forward to the next instalments with great interest. Paul, it's a shame the 'wood' build snobs weren't more welcoming, a model is a model no matter what you make it from so it's their loss not yours! I am building a 1/96 scale wooden Victory along with my other plastic ships and I am enjoying both. AND this was because I watched 'Master and Commander' which really inspired me no end and that's why I'm doing the Victory and halfway through reading all the Patrick O'Brien books! Which brings me to another point, David, the only model of the surprise that I have seen is a wood build by Artesania Latina. It's a long and challenging build but acheivable by any experienced plastic modeller. The 'Master and Commander' books would have produced many excellent films too especially with the casting choices already, when I read the books, I see the characters from the film.

Aaaaand, I would love to build U-96 from 'Das Boot' so if anyone finds a kit of this, please let me know!

Anyway, back to cutting my fingers and swearing, hard to imagine why we enjoy this hobby so much if you are not a builder yourself!

Kev.

On the bench-1/350 Zvezda Varyag, Trumpeter Slava class Varyag and Tamiya CVN65 Enterprise. 1/400 Academy Titanic and 1/96 DeAgostini Victory.

 

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Saturday, June 23, 2012 8:29 PM

All I can tell you is how the gammoning is set up on board a real ship.  It's a heavy piece of rope; it runs between the "gammoning slot" in the knee of the ship's head and a wood cleat, or pad, on top of the bowsprit.  (The pad is shaped in such a way that it keeps the finished gammoning from sliding down the bowsprit.)  One end of the rope is seized around the bowsprit at the forward end of the pad, pointing down.  It's  then passed through the gammoning slot at the aft end of the slot, from port to starboard.  Then the rope goes across the knee of the head (to starboard), around the bowsprit right next to to the loop that's already there. Then it crosses under the bowsprit again, passes through the slot right next to the first loop, and so on. 

As the gammoning goes along the rope forms two X shapes between the bowsprit and the slot - one X visible from the side and one visible from forward.  When the rope has gone through the slot enough times to fill the slot, it's taken up to the middle of the gammoning and wrapped around the bundle several times.  The bitter end is usually (on models) tucked between the turns to make a neat finish.

Like most pieces of rigging,  this is far more difficult to describe verbally than to do.  The job actually takes a few minutes.

There are at least two wood  H.M.S. Surprise kits out there and a third on the way.  The Artisania  Latina is (WARNING:  personal opinion approaching) overpriced trash, like most of that company's kits.  (Serious scale ship modelers often refer to the firm as "Artist in the Latrine.")  The one from Mamoli is quite a bit better, but suffers from some pretty big errors.  The best by far undoubtedly will be the forthcoming one from Calder/Jotika.  That one's a going to be a genuine scale model, designed by people who know exactly what they're doing.  Unfortunately it will, I'm sure, also be very expensive; I'll probably never be able to afford one.  (The Calder H.M.S. Victory costs about $1,000.)  Link:  http://www.jotika-ltd.com/Pages/1024768/Surprise_19.htm .

Revell offers thee Type VII U-boats with U-96 markings on different  scales:  1/72, 1/144, and 1/350.  I think the AFV Club 1/350 version also has the necessary decals and color scheme info.

Hope all that helps a little.  Good luck.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Formerly Bryan, now Arlington, Texas
Posted by CapnMac82 on Sunday, June 24, 2012 2:55 AM

For gunport lids, I return to my preferred footrope material:  annealed steel wire.

Like a metal or card hinge, it has "give" while also being strong.   You can also make up a jig to bend the wire to suit the dimensions needed.  For "V"-shaped lanyards, twist a pit of wire in the apex to the vee, and use that to pass into the hull.

In smaller scales, you can simply drill the lid and hull for the wire.  If desired, the eyes o nthe ports can be applied after the fact, too.

At a scale as large as 1/72, probably the port-lid eyes would want need making up, but the wire would  knot on those neatly, too.

Now, one of the things oft forgotten (particularly by our 'friends' in H'wood) is that port lids are not merely a visual affect.  They are a part of the skin of the ship, and need to keep seawater, rain and the like out of the ship.  So, a lid ought fit tightly, and be provided with ways to secure it from the inside, too.  All of which would need undoing, along with the tricing at the gun muzzle, before running out.  So, for the larger guns, there'd be a couple of stout lads to put a shoulder to the lid, as the rest of the gun crew heaved on the port lanyards.  As a guess, this would be done "on the roll" to let the ship's roll momentum help heave the ports out.  Even on smaller vessels, with smaller cannons, you'd still have some one at the pot yo pull the tompion from the muzzle; who could also give a stout push on the port.  

All of which would spoil the air-driven neatness of the Disney scheme of things.

  • Member since
    June 2012
  • From: Kidderminster, U.K.
Posted by Jockster on Sunday, June 24, 2012 4:59 AM

Thanks JTilley on both counts, I can afford to do U-96 but realistically I think the Victory will be the only wood build I do based on time and cost. David, if you do build a surprise, let the rest of us know!

On the bench-1/350 Zvezda Varyag, Trumpeter Slava class Varyag and Tamiya CVN65 Enterprise. 1/400 Academy Titanic and 1/96 DeAgostini Victory.

 

 

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Carmel, CA
Posted by bondoman on Sunday, June 24, 2012 12:42 PM

I have the following observation, all with a dose of humor. This is a fantasy build, after all.

According to the "literature" spread around on the www, some from Disney and the rest from PoC fans, the Black Pearl was a "Galleon" (looks like one) or a East India ship, about 175 feet long. She carried thirty two (32) thirty two pound cannons.

As a point of reference, the HMS Victory is feet long and carries 30 thirty two pounders, in addition to quite a few smaller ones. And at least on the gun deck, the USS Constitution doesn't carry any that large.

So yes those big cannons could be thirty twos I suppose. With the kit in hand and an idea of it's "true" scale, it'd be easy enough to make an educated guess.

But here's where I get a little leery of the whole fantasy bit. There was a reason Victory had a complement of 900 or so, the Constitution 450. Certainly not to sail the ship. Four watches of probably 40-50 each could do that. Each one of those great guns was served by a crew of 10-12, so even manning a broadside on the BP would take 180 or so well trained individuals. Plus replacements to spell the guys hauling the things in and out, 

I know less than nothing about pirate crews, but having recently reread Treasure Island, certainly a piece of fiction, the pirates on the Hispaniola were able to give the folks in the stockade a tough time with one small swivel gun.

if it's the movie ship that's modeled, then it probably is right. If it's a more accurate pirate ship, then probably just one or two guns would really be usable. If it's an accurate model of a ship, at least in a generic sense, then all the big guns on the weather deck ought to be replaced by much smaller ones.

 

Fun stuff!

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Sunday, June 24, 2012 12:47 PM

Jockster...glad you're finding this thread interesting!  It's great fun to share the experience with people who find enjoyment in it!

Funny, just as soon as I was singing the praises of this kit's *outstanding* quality, I've been plagued with several obstacles to overcome!  Jinxed it, I guess!  I discovered another possible mistake that builders of this model might want to look out for:

The channels (described in assembly steps 27-30, and again in step 31) have some apparent confusion with the numbering called out in the instructions.  During assembly of the *knuckles* to the channels in steps 27 and 28, the parts labeled as 28-29, and 30-31, respectively.  But then during installation of the channels in step 31, they are called out in opposite order...the instructions say to use the parts from steps27 & 28 in certain position, but I found that they are mixed up.  This may seem confusing, and I may not be making it as clear as I could, but the point is this:

Be careful to test-fit the channels for each position, and don't be surprised if you have to depart from the instructions during this step...just check to make sure the "upper support contact points" for each channel match up.  I would recommend checking them all, then laying them out on your workbench in order, front port to rear port, and then front starboard to rear starboard.

After that, the chainplates (?, parts I 18 and I 19...I 18 are for the two front channels, I 19 are for all the rest) have been going on pretty easily.  A couple of them need to be finessed in, but they are forgiving.  For these, be sure to use tweezers and bring the upper end of the chainplate around to the inside of the channel's undermount, and then move the lower part of the chainplate into the locator hole on the hull below it.  I used one tweezer to hold and maneuver the chainplate, and another tweezer to push the lower end into the hull.  Most of them didn't even require glue, they snap in, and are held in place by the *knuckle* of the channel.

Thanks, John Tilley, for the info on the gammoning process....after reading it a few times, and looking at some pics, I think I get the idea!

I'm hoping to get some more work done tonight, and maybe I can get a few more pics up soon.

David

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    October 2009
  • From: So Cal
Posted by 2whl on Tuesday, June 26, 2012 4:25 PM

Wow, this thread has really taken off recently.  I like it!

David, I got the bees wax and while I was there I found some thread in case I run out.  You've gotten ahead of me.  I work to slowly and have enough other projects on the go that you will now probably be telling me about the problem areas. With that in mind, thanks for the heads up about placing the cannons in the right spot concerning the rigging.  I ran into the same problem with I17, but it was early enough that I realized I had sand them down a little to get them to fit properly.   I also noted the error in the orientation of the channels when I was studying the instructions. That shouldn't be that hard of a fix.

For the gunport doors, I was thinking of putting the thread on them before they go on the ship.  Then maybe drilling out the hole where part I22 goes and putting the end of the thread in there.  Since I'm not replicating the 'Pearl', I don't have to use part I22.

Grymm, who makes the Tac glue?

Kev, I went back to the ship club last Wednesday with my Swan and got a much friendlier reception.  Everyone who brings in a model has to get up in front of the meeting and talk about it. Some of them were surprised to learn that it was styrene.  

I haven't done much recently due to other builds taking up my time.  Here is the latest parts I put on.

 

Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it.

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Tuesday, June 26, 2012 6:56 PM

Sweet!  Yeah, it's funny how much activity we're seeing on this thread....I confess, most of the posts are from me...I tend to go on at times!  :)

Your kit is looking pretty good, Paul!  

Tell you what....don't even worry about going slow....two of the best pieces of advice I've ever heard from experienced shipbuilders are 1- take your time, and 2- have fun.  I tend to get caught up in making progress sometimes, and I've made serious mistakes because of it...I always remind myself to take a couple day off here and there, and to wait until I fully understand the how and why of a step before I make it.  Better to move slowly and enjoy the process, than to hurry through it, and then regret it later.

Anyways,

I agree about the gunport door support pieces...take them out and drill holes for the line.  For one thing (and I didn't do this, or notice it until after), once the channels are on, some of the chain plates (that run below it) are SUPER close to the aforementioned gundoor supports...I think a few of them are actually touching the I 22s...I don't know that I'll even be able to tie a line around them now....possibly, I'll just leave the gunport rigging off, unless I can find a way *around* the chainplates.

Running the line through the hull would have been a simpler alternative, especially if I'd considered it before assembling the hull halves...easy to tie them off from inside (like the anchor cord) and then just attach them to the gundoors later.  I'm on step 31 now, and that gives me 5 steps to figure out how to approach the "gundoor conundrum"....has a nice ring to it, eh?  :)

Meanwhile, I've been practicing some Bowsprit gammoning on a little rig I made from some sprue parts, but I can't seem to get the *X* looking just right...maybe I'll get it tonight...then it's on to the little boat!  Ladders, sculptures, and a Swan...then it's gundoor time....won't be long before mast assembly, and then

(dramatic pause)

....Some Standing Rigging!

You'll be SOOO glad you got the wax, man....you should try to rig a line without it first, just so you'll know how much better it can be!

And Kudos for going back to the ship club....wish I had a local club, wood-builds or not...I'd totally show up!

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Tuesday, June 26, 2012 8:13 PM

 

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Wednesday, June 27, 2012 8:48 AM

Well, I think I figured out how to insert images again....there's something about the source formatting....I can paste the Flickr URL into the reply, but only after selecting *Edit HTML Source* in the toolbar....sheesh!

Anyway, here's my Bowsprit Gammoning....Looks way better than if it was a molded plastic part...I think I got it right...basically, I tied a slipknot to the bowsprit, and then made sure each wrap went AHEAD of the previous loop on the Bowsprit, and BEHIND the previous loop on the Knee Slot.  Wrapped it a few times and tucked the tag-end away.

 

IMG_0275

*Helpful Hint*

When running the line through the delicate plate piece(K 41 from Step 16, I think?) that's connected to the *knee*, you'll find that the heavier line will give you some trouble fitting through it.  I used a needle-threading tool....without it, the line will quickly get frayed and became a huge hassle.  Also, be sure to start with a long enough piece of the #3 line...I wrapped it something like 7 or 8 times around, and then 4 or 5 times for the seizing....I had cut a piece that turned out to be barely long enough, and I would have liked a little more to work with toward the end there...Always a good idea to have too much line, than too have too little and be forced to start over.

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    October 2009
  • From: So Cal
Posted by 2whl on Wednesday, June 27, 2012 8:17 PM

Nice work on the gammoning, David.  And I like the way the wood grain looks also.

Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it.

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