Imai Golden Hind 1/70

Concerning the Le Soleil Royal I sold  . . . that was back in the days before I really knew all the problems in the kit and how to correct them. My craftsmanship was good, my research skills were lacking.  Anyway, I wasn't happy with the model, the buyer was a regular customer in the hobby shop in which I worked part time, and he said that he did not care about the accuracy of the ship. He liked it because it was "pretty".  So, I sold it, bought a new one for which my skills were much improved, and I have the ship on display in my basement museum. I am far, far happier with my newer version.

I met someone who, like me, had accumulated hundreds of ship kits throughout his navy career but had built none of them because he was afraid of breakage during transfers.  He was an aficionado of the HECEPOB kits.  So, after retiring from the USN, he tended to his hobby, and he ended up selling some through some store in Boston.  Before too long, he was contacted directly by various businesses who paid very good money for his ships.  To make a long story short, he quit his job and worked full time on his ship models, selling them when he needed money.  His hobby became his job, and he lost interest. He built ship models but he did not enjoy it.

I suppose it depends on what you want, but I am happier keeping this as my beloved hobby!

Bill

To your point, Tilley.

Yes, I agree, building models on commission is for me a sure recipe to insanity, even if I improved my skills enough to be able to get any customers,

This is my hobby. I have enough other deadlines in life, and the $ aren't there.

But, if someone has a model they built for fun and they don't really like or want it anymore, do sell it.

I used to throw away all my old airplane models while I was developing my (basic) skills, and I don't regret it because I have some pictures.

If it's a good model, why not?

Dave,

If I had half your talent and were ever in a position to sell one of my models ... I WOULD!!

Your reasoning, clearing out space for more kits to work on and display, is a valid one. Also it can't hurt that you'd have a little extra $ to do with as you please.

Rob's philosophy is closest to mine in that it's the enjoyment of the building process that counts ... you can't take it with you is true of anything in these multi-universes () so SELL, SELL, SELL!

Since this hobby is also a learning process, and the time we have in this universe is limited (Rob, Here's were C'est la vie comes in ), I suggest that we keep moving on. Remember:

Interesting points.  It's ice to see a wife so supportive of your efforts.  However.....I too have several models I'll probably never sell..for similar reasons...on the other  hand Many years ago I did spend a stint of time as a professional ship model builder.....and I sold every model I built...many on commission.

Dollar to time equations in this instance are irrelevant as far as I'm concerned because I derive so much enjoyment that that in of itself is payment..  I also build and sell telescopes.........tackling with the same issues plague me there as well.  In the end it is all still STUFF that no one takes with them when they check out any way.....so Se'Lavea..    Or however that is spelled.

This Hobbie empowers you to do what ever you will, for yourself.....fun fun fun.

My 2 nickles.

Rob

I don't intend criticism of anybody else; we all have different ways of looking at our hobby (or profession, as the case may be). But personally I've never gotten interested in selling models. One reason is that I work so slowly that we aren't in any imminent danger of running out of space. Another is that I don't like deadlines. (I've had enough of them in my day job over the past 40 years - and in school before that.)

I used to take in model restoration projects, when I was a starving museum curator, but I never enjoyed it much. Quite a few years ago I decided I wanted to build models for fun and for no other reason.

Another reason I don't want to be in the model building business, frankly, is the wild variation in the prices for which models get sold. Yeah, $800 sounds like a lot of money. But if you divide that number by the number of hours you spent on the model, you're getting far less than minimum wage.

On the other hand, there does exist a small classification of people who pay huge sums of money for models. Back when I'd just finished my 1/128-scale model of the Hancock, the gentleman who ran the ship model gallery at Mystic Seaport tried to get me interested in letting him sell it for me. He said he figured he could get at least $15,000 (that's 1983 dollars) for it. Once I got done picking myself off the floor, I asked him what his commission would be. Answer: 40%. I guessed the model had about 1500 hours in it. I couldn't become a professional modeler for that kind of money. After thinking about it for quite a while, I decided to turn him down. My thinking was that, though I was far from a wealthy man at the time (I'd just gotten my teaching job, for $20,000 1983 dollars per year), the time might well come in the future when I'd need that money more than I did then.

Since I've been married, and raising two stepkids, there have been several moments when my wife and I have said "maybe it's time to sell the Hancock." But it's never happened; the model still sits in our den. I confess I've become pretty attached to it (as I suspect some people in this Forum have figured out).

A few months back I talked with my wife about willing it to a certain museum. Her response - to my surprise - was "not unless you can set it up so the museum doesn't get it while I'm alive." That one knocked me out just as effectively as the offer from Mystic did.

At any rate, there are dealers who routinely sell models for tens of thousands of dollars. I always wonder whether the people who buy them really appreciate, or understand, them. Some do. The Kriegstein brothers, owners of the famous Kriegstein Collection, give their models the same tender loving care that the best museums do. Others who play the game (I know of at least one of Donald McNarry's patrons who falls in this category) buy them because they're pretty and they're expensive - and know absolutely nothing about the ships or ship modeling. (The guy I referred to in the previous sentence had trouble pronouncing the names of the ships.) I've got better things to do than be patronized by people like that.

To each his/her own. I don't suggest that there's anything wrong with selling models - especially if you've got a space problem (or if you're now so sick of looking at that model, with all the mistakes you made ten or fifteen years ago, that you just plain want to get rid of it). But the stuff I build - and am proud of - isn't going to leave the Tilley house while I'm around.

Scadoooosh.........

I once sold the Heller Le Soleil Royal for over $800.00.  I gave half to my wife and used the other half to buy more kits.

Bill

Dave,

I have to agree with Professor T as well as the others, my beautiful wife not only loves the sailing ships I have built, but also the steel ships I have started building.  I am a lucky man.  Right now I have them displayed along the top shelf of my workbench but once I start on the larger ship models, I am going to need to figure out where to put them.

Secondly, I agree with the others, if you sell some of your built models, you will not only have room for more, but have a bit of cash for either "mad money" or for the household expenses.  I know how hard it is to sell them though, you spent a chuck of time and effort on them as well as building them for yourself vs. a client.  In which case, you offer to build a ship for your coworker if they interested.  They buy the model and supplies and you charge for your time.  You get to build another model, make money and not be so attached to it.  Just an idea......

Steve

Boy- someone is a SERIOUS ship modeler!

Oh definitely sell. But take lots and lots of pictures of it.

Sell...sell...sell.   You can, as you said,.....relieve your space and buy more stuff for more projects.  I have sold three 1/96 Connies and two 1/96 CS's and a plethora of smaller builds.  It gets easier the more you do it.

Rob

Don't get me wrong...Heather fully supports my hobby, but I think she and I both agree that turning our home into a maritime shipmodel museum would be a bit much....I think a moderate display of models is appropriate...fortunately, I have full control of décor in the Dave-Cave, but I think 3 ship models and 3 race car models is the maximum....

Yes, Rob, I'm still sitting on the La Reale you gifted me...And I will build it someday...and when I do...I think you'll be proud!  :)

By the way, I brought the GH in to work today, and one of my co-workers offered me 350 bucks for it....but I can't sell it.

He asked if I have others, and I showed him some pics of the Black Swan...he asked if I would sell, I said maybe for 250 bucks...he said "bring it tomorrow, I'll give you 300 dollars."

Wow.  Not sure if I'll go through with it or not, but it would certainly help with my "storage problem" ....and it would help fund my fittings and rigging line for the next build!  

Anybody think I'd be crazy to sell?

Dave

Rob,

My wife has graciously allowed me to turn my finished basement into a "Maritime Museum", with most of my ships on display along the walls and in stand-alone cases. I also have dedicated work and storage rooms adjacent to the "museum". I additionally have a den with a display area, and my Model Shipways solid-hull Fair American graces my living room fire place mantle.

I guess that we have terrific wives!

Bill Morrison

To complete my collection..I will need to finish the McKay, then build my other two large models, the Sea Witch and the Swordfish.  I'll probably dash among them the Flying Cloud and the Staghound...of smaller scale.  The challenge will be to combine two CS hulls to create the Great Republic........the ship I will complete my collection with(I hope and think).....heehee.

Anyway......I have seen a guy hang his collection from the ceiling via wire.....looks cool and it frees up shelf space.

Rob

Dave....I am blessed to have a wife who loves my ship models.....I even have an entire den with brick fire place, classic wood and ceiling finished  surfaces........to display my clipper ships in.  My big Cutty Sark gets half of the 5 ft mantle in front of my large *racing home* painting(two clippers racing).  The Glory of the Seas enjoys a nice spot on a wall in the dining room......and my other big CS has an honory place in the guest bedroom.

My Ferriera(AKA CS) has its own built in shelf at the head of the stairs at the landing..next to another large ship painting. Mixed among the den clippers are four other smaller models mixed among my collection of nautical antiques.  My nautical den is an *eye spy* adventure.  I Love it.

The clipper Donald McKay is in my model shop...awaiting further attention.

Is the La Reale the one I gave you?

Rob

Please allow me to repeat what everyone else has already said . . . you did an excellent job on your Pelican/Golden Hind.  It would be very difficult to improve upon.

IF you are planning on tackling the Le Soleil Royal, please check out the thread of many years ago titled "Soleil Royal . . . The Ultimate Building Guide".  The various contributors offered tremendous insights into correcting that model.

Bill Morrison

I can't blame you for having a problem with all those oars. They triple the width of the model.

I'll make a couple of points in their defense, though. You don't have to worry about them until the model's almost finished; they won't get in your way during the rest of the building and rigging process. I don't remember how Heller provides for their installation. (It would be a typical Hellerism if they weren't fastened at all.) In any case, it surely wouldn't be hard to figure out a way to make them removable.

With all those oars (which, if I remember right, are painted in spiffy colors), those big lateen-rigged masts, the gold carvings, and those huge flags with gold fleurs de lis all over them, the finished model would have a WOW factor at least as wowy as the SR. And it would be a far better scale model.

I don't have a magic answer to the display problem. Any of the big kits you've mentioned will present that problem. If you don't want to build a case yourself, various companies (e.g., Bluejacket) will be happy to make you one. But it'll cost in the hundreds of dollars. In our house (thank you, I-phone, for trying to change that to "outhouse") we have two nice curio cabinets that are fine for smaller models, but I've never seen one that would hold a three-foot sailing ship.

When I was thinking seriously about La Reale my father (an architect whose aesthetic sense I deeply respected) had an interesting idea: hang it from the ceiling over the dining room sideboard. That would look really neat all right, but the great eternal scourge of sailing ship models, DUST, would rear its ugly head.

One thing I'll guarantee: the concept of displaying a big sailing ship model will get a more positive reaction from your Significant Other than any other genre of big model.

Well, I'm pleased and relieved to have the blessing of my peers to post a thread of the SR!  It wouldn't be the same if I felt I had to keep it to myself!

I had gone through the stash and narrowed my choice down to three kits:  The big Revell Cutty Sark, the Heller Soleil Royal, or the Heller La Reale...and if I'm being perfectly honest, I tried really hard to convince myself to build the La Reale....but there's a feature of that ship that I don't like, and I need to figure out how to get past it:

The Oars.

For some reason, I just can't dig on a ship with all those oars!  I can't explain it, but they bug me, despite the era of that ship (which is within my preferred timeframe) and the general shape and lines of it....I'll get to building it sometime...but I have to find a way to love it first.  :)

Arnie, I wholeheartedly agree with you about the purpose of this forum, it's about sharing experiences with each other, learning what we can from each other, and trying to grow in our own individual ways.

I picked up Anderson's book a while back, so I'll be spending some great amount of hours reading it before bedtime in the coming months, and I have a lot of planning to do with the SR to decide what additions I'll make to it....which will of course include the usual opening of the quarter galleries, rigging shrouds ratlines deadeyes with aftermarket (probably Syren) parts, etc., and possibly using wood for a portion of the spars.

Anyway, enough of that for now.

Steve- I'm glad you liked the furled sails on the GH...I know they weren't typically furled in that fashion during that time, but as I experimented I found that I really liked the loosely-bundled look, so I went with that.  The technique was a hybrid of things I learned from John TIlley, Rob, and a couple other guys on here...I'd be happy to give you a detailed walkthrough of it, if you go that route with your next sailfurling endeavor.

And you asked a good question about building a case for the GH? Well, truth is I wasn't planning on it.  I have a big glass display case in the *Dave-Cave* that usually houses my current favorite ship model...the Black Swan was the first occupant, followed by the Chebec....and now the GH will take its place on the *throne*... I wish I had the ability to decorate my house with model ships in every room, but alas, Heather will not like that very much!  Some of my previously built ships are in moorage at the in-laws house, uncovered on display shelves, and I have one on my desk at work, and I've given a couple away to friends, even sold a couple....but here's my question:

What does everyone else DO with all their built ship models??  They keep multiplying over here!

I'd love to get a big ol' glass display case with like 3 or 4 shelves so I could keep several of my models in one area of the house...

But I know I'll ultimately need to start looking at building display cases, especially now that I'm becoming more proud of them and wanting to preserve them...I just don't know how to do it?

Dave

I second Jtilley's motion for you to post a WIP on your upcoming SR build. Striving for historical accuracy is all well and good, but IMHO, this forum is all about sharing your successes and "failures" with others so that we may grow and learn from each other. Ultimately, its all about the process for any serious modeler, and is a very personal experience that is not about pleasing others. So I reiterate, please post.  

Dave, you need to take a good look in a mirror. What you call personal touches are in fact authentic details. Anybody who concerns himself with the leads of lower yard lifts and the various methods of furling sails is a serious scale ship modeler, no matter how hard he tries to deny it.

I'm sure all of us will appreciate a WIP thread on your next project. I wish I could talk you into La Reale, but if you want to tackle the infamous SR that's certainly your business. It looks like I'm in the minority in disliking that kit so intensely.

Tip: get hold of a copy of R.C. Anderson's The Rigging of Ships in the Days of the Spritsail Topmast. It's available in a cheap, paperback edition published by Dover Books. (Note: avoid Dr. Anderson's somewhat later book, Seventeenth-Century Rigging. It's a fine work, but it deals exclusively with English ships.) It's the best book on the subject available. You might as well throw out the Heller rigging diagrams and rely entirely on Dr. Anderson.

But the rigging is a long way down the road if you're just starting. I'm sure we'll all be fascinated to see your painting techniques applied to that kit.

Dave,

You have got to be VERY happy with the way she turned out.  Awesome job bud.  As I said before, the furled sails look so good that I might have to "borrow" your technique down the road.

Now if I just get my hands and fingers to work again, I'll just have to start the Soleil Royal when you start yours.  Either that or the 1/96 Cutty Sark as we discussed earlier.

Are you going to build a case for the GR?

Steve

Have never done a sailing ship, but this build is an absolute beauty from my viewpoint.  For the 3 years doing them, you have raised the bar for all of us attempting one.

Thanks for all the kind words!

John, I guess I consider myself to be a somewhat serious scale ship modeler now, despite my efforts to the contrary....though, my definition of *serious* may be different than some.  I do find a certain sense of satisfaction from adding personal touches (improvements) to a kit, but only to a degree.

Mike, if you haven't built an Imai kit before, I very much recommend it.  They are great kits, and I'm actually kinda bummed that I've almost built all of the Imai kits that I like....I have their Mayflower in the stash, but I'll save it for another time.

Speaking of my stash, I went through it last night and considered my next *adventure*....

May not be a surprise to some of you, and it may actually be a disappointment to some of the members out there....but I've decided to have a go at the *Ship-That-Shall-Not-Be-Named*....but for the sake of clarity, I'll name it here:

Heller Soleil Royal.

That kit has many well-known discrepancies, anachronistic features, and various other "problems"...but I think it's beautiful, and it will definitely challenge me.  I'll begin it in January, and I expect I'll finish it sometime in 2025.

One thing that saddens me a little is that the SR is very polarizing, and it brings a bit of a negative bent to the forums when it comes up...and at the very least, there is a cloud hanging over it.

I don't wish to start a thread that will invite negativity, so I don't know if there will be a WIP thread from me...which kinda sucks, because I so enjoy sharing my adventures with everyone here...especially when I need help or advice!

But I do plan on producing a magnificent piece of artistic creation with it, and I'll be very excited along the way.

Perhaps I should just call it a Fictional Vessel Based On 17th Century French Design?

Dave

Dave,

An inspiration, as usual, from you. I have both the ETRL Spanish Galleon and the Golden Hind in my stash and viewing your superb work makes me want to dig one of them out of the closet.

I'll always follow your works in progress since they are so inspiring and I learn a bit from the wonderful folks who usually chime in with answers and suggestions to any queries you might have.

What's your next ship?

Mike

A truly outstanding model. The rigging looks great and so do the sails. And your painting techniques are especially outstanding.

Now, if we can just get you to quit claiming you're not a serious scale ship modeler....

Congrats Dave......really........great build.

Rob

Exceptional work David! I defy anyone to refer to you as anything less than a master builder at this point. I noticed no heads in the bow. Did they just squat and let it fall between slats?

Dave,

She is beautiful, you did a wonderful job.  The detail and painting is fantastic.  Looking forward to your next adventure.

Marcus.

Well....she's finished!

I ended up taking a boatload (pun) of pictures, but here are a handful of shots.

I feel a pretty big sense of accomplishment after finishing this build.  I took a lot of new directions, learned a lot of new stuff, and I really feel like this has been my most in-depth and challenging model ship so far.

John,

I look forward to seeing you again! And, I will introduce my wife to you. Mystic Pizza is a well-known local secret!

Bill