Imai Golden Hind 1/70

I wouldn't put any more tension on them than you need for them to at least "look" taut. It's not like they are really holding anything other than the yards in place.

I can't imagine that they would effect the stays, but then I am not really familiar w/ the rigging.

How taut should the yard braces be run?  I'm a little concerned that my stays aren't very tight, and if I put any tension on the braces when I attach them, they'll pull the stays out of line....

D

My Greenville days are past; worked on the Wachovia HQ tower down in Winston Salem and passed through often.

It is nice to meet other folks from here. I've met a few.

Well, I find it difficult to believe that anybody would regard dinner with my wife and me as an honor - but it was a delicious meal with good company in delightful surroundings (Mystic Seaport).

Confession time: that lovely little Model Shipways Essex is still awaiting my attention. In fact, it's the sort of thing I sort of hesitate to put a knife to. Seems almost sacrilegious. It really is something of a museum piece. But I love it - and if those lead fittings have survived this long, they'll probably make it through the rest of our lifetimes.

Already planning a trip to the Northeast for this coming summer (happy thought!) I'm pretty sure we'll actually make it this time - with both my wife and I being retired). Hope your wife can join us next time, Bill.

Speaking of meals in Mystic - anybody traveling there needs to know that Mystic Pizza really is a slice of heaven. Even without Julia Roberts.

And in the unlikely event that anybody on this Forum is going to be in the vicinity of Greenville, North Carolina, please do drop me a line.

David,

I share the sentiment! I would love to meet everyone here. I did have the honor of meeting John Tilley and his lovely wife two years ago when he took a tour of New England, stopping near my home near Mystic, CT along the way. John, did you ever finish that model of the USS Essex I gave to you?  

Anyway, I love building sailing ships (and all ships for that matter!).  Your work is impressive!

Bill Morrison

Aw, thanks, you guys!

You know, the Golden Hind is my 8th model ship build, and I've come to enjoy shipmodeling even more than race car modeling, which I've been doing for 20 years...

Things I've learned along the way have come from reading books, trial and error, and from the advice and support of all the experienced shipmodelers on this forum.  I've pushed myself a little further with each build, to try something new, and to keep expanding my skills during this journey.

It's a shame that we only know each other across the vast distance of these interwebs...there's a lot of cool cats on Finescale that I'd sure like to have a beer with!

8 ship models, since Feb 2012....learned a lot in this short time, and I have a ways to go yet!

Progress update:  Got most of the running rigging finished over this long 6-day holiday weekend...all that remains are the braces, and the anchors and swivel guns...might go ahead and put some rope coils on the pinrails, if I can finally figure out how to get them looking right!

Back to work tomorrow, though, so it may be a while yet before I can call her done...I'll offer up some pics once I reach what I call *completion*...

Dave

P.S.- Love the Syren line, Arnie!  Can't wait to get my hands on some of that material!

Dave,

Very nice work my friend.  I really like it!

Steve

Gentlemen,

I don't know how I missed this thread! I love it when someone shows how tremendous a plastic sailing ship can look with a master doing the building.  Your Pelican/Golden HInd is absolutely beautiful!

Bill Morrison

Arnie, that makes sense. CIM line does have a synthetic look to it.

I'm  definitely going to order some Syren line. My only reservation, as I mentioned earlier, is that it all appears in the photos to be cable-laid. Fine for eighteenth-century standing rigging, but not for the twentieth-century schooner I'm working on. I'll ask Mr. Passaro if he can spin it up in the other direction.

David;

I have bought some of the CIM cordage and was not all that happy w/ it. It is primarily a synthetic fiber and tends to be shiny and "stretchy". Syrene's cordage is a bit more expensive, but is so incredibly nice to work w/. Chuck makes it from a cotton/linen blend thread. It doesn't unravel when you cut an end like the CIM will, and there is a wider range of sizes.. Also, I have found that for making loops to hang from pin rails and the like, you really don't need to use any glue, just soak in water, hang it, shape it, let it dry, then a dot ofCA to glue it to the rail.

The pic below shows how nice it comes out, and no discoloration or shine from using glue.

Dave,

I have 8 spools of Imai rigging line if you would like to have them?  I sent you an email to get your address  and they are free.

Steve

Cottage Industry Models, at www.cottageindustrymodels.com . They offer quite a few different sizes, and will spin it up for you in either direction. They also offer a "sample card" with short pieces of all the sizes and colors.

CIM line?  Is that a brand?

One of Murphy's Laws of ship modeling: no matter how much line you buy, you'll run out.

I think ModelExpo gets its line from several sources. The stuff I used most recently (which was several years ago) was on spools with "Mamoli" on it. Mamoli, of course, is one of the worst of the HECEPOB companies, but I liked the look and feel of the thread. I don't know whether ME is still selling it or not.

For my current project I've laid in a supply of CIM line. I haven't tried Syren ine yet, but I intend to order some before I commit to the CIM stuff.

Thanks, John....I got it figured out shortly after my last post...

(there's an edited version of my last post)

Big lesson learned....I think it's time for me to accept the fact that using the line from a kit is a gamble...'specially when trying to add extra lines to the simplified rigging plan.  This is the second time I've come very close to not having enough line to finish a kit.  I always like the quality of the line in Imai kits, so I don't have a problem using it (I can't say the same for any other manufacturer's line)...but it's not like I can get more of the same stuff...I'm actually already using some leftover stuff from the Chebec!  Close call....

I suppose from here on out, I'll be ordering line from somewhere to use for my kits....at least then I can get more, if need be.

By the way, I did use some of my Model Expo line for the shrouds on the Golden Hind...at first I thought it was terrible, but once I removed it from the *spool*, soaked it, and hung it with weights from the garage rafters for a day or so, it proved to be usable...though I may not use their stuff for running rigging...it still has a certain stiffness to it.

Anyway, got a lot of belaying to work on...I'll upload some pics when I get closer to being done!

:)

I think the likeliest rig during that period would start from a block on the lower mast cap, then run through the block at the yardarm, then back to the block on the cap, and down to the deck.

That German drawing shows the lift blocks strapped under the tops. That's also a reasonable possibility - especially if the geometry is such that running the lift to the cap would make the rope chafe on the edge of the top. The block might well be lashed to the first shroud. For it to be lashed to the lower stay seems less likely, but certainly possible.

There's a potential for a snarl up at the yardarm, where the lift block and the topsail sheet block are lashed to the yard at the same place. In the late sixteenth and early seventeenth centuries the usual solution was to use a fiddle block (aka sister block), with two sheaves. The lift ran through the upper sheave and the topsail sheet through the lower one.

I don't know if the kit includes any fiddle blocks. If not, Syrenshipmodelcompany Ship Models sells nice ones.

The Lavery book on the Susan Constant should explain all this clearly - and if he says something different from what I say, he's right.

Thanks, Phillip!

Here's a quick question:

I'm having trouble finding a straight answer online...where do the lower lifts attach to the mast?  Some pics/drawings I've found show the standing end to be looped around the mast, above the yard, then through the yard block, then the mast blocks, then down to deck...

In others, I've seen the standing end lashed to the lower stay above the yard, then following the above route...

Any input?

*UPDATED*

Never mind, I just tied them above the mast head, like the upper lifts...seems legitimate.

Also, I have encountered a huge pitfall of using kit-included rigging line, especially when departing from the manufacturer's rigging plan....I'm running out of line!  And since it's the kit-included stuff, I can't replace it....

I have most of the lines in place, just not belayed yet...with any luck, I'll have enough to run the braces, and then I'll be okay...but all I have left is the thinner of the two lines, so it'll have to do.
Dave

THX

Dave_K,

I have to tell you I am greatly impressed with your paint job on the hull and deck of this model.  It is beautiful!  Both you and docidle have mastered the technique of staining and hi-lighting wooden planks.  I will certainly have to take a lesson from you when I build a wooden sailing ship.  I look forward to your continuing progress.

Phillip1

Assuming that coffee filters are made of just about the same material as silkspan (they sure look like they are), the "paint/glue" trick eliminates any problem of texture. The fuzziness disappears when the paint and glue dry; the resulting surface is quite smooth.

I should emphasize that I've only used that trick on furled sails. I'm not a fan of set sails, on anything but very large and very small scales. In the past forty years I've made one exception: the sail on my Revell Gokstad ship ( cs.finescale.com/.../1701192.aspx ). I figured it deserved special consideration because (a) the scale was so large (about 1/64), and (b) the sail of the prototype apparently was made of double-layered, dyed wool cloth. Probably a good bit thicker than sails of 800 years later - and back lighting presumably didn't have an effect on what it looked like.

Furled sails are never perfect.  It's a furled sail.  I have hundreds of images of furled sails and boy there is a huge leap in presentation.  Personally I don't like the texture of filters(I tried them), but yours look good, great job bro.

Rob

Much, much more natural look. I like it the way it is, but you may feel the need to tweak further, and I agree, they are a bit dark, but not unacceptable. By the time you get done, you will no doubt have yet another mastery under your belt.

By Jove, you've got it! The only lines that seem to be missing are the sheets. Add them, and you'll have all the gear necessary to handle the spritsail.

The others will be a little more complicated - but not much.

i do think the color is a little dark, but I think you can fix it later with some dry-brushed highlights. 

To my eye the bundle looks just about the right size.

Here goes nothing.

I tried my hand at some coffee filter sails, and I got one installed and furled on the spritsail yard.

I'll preface by saying it was a valiant first effort, but I definitely think my technique needs some work.

Nonetheless, I'd like to share my experiment, and see what people think.

It's not great, but it's way better than what I had previously.

Have a look:

Here we have some standard coffee filters, slightly crinkled to get a uniform texture Then I cut them out to reduced surface area, as per popular advice Then I painted them with Vallejo Hemp acrylic airbrush paint, and thinned Elmer's glue. The color is too dark, but I'll let it slide. By the way, I thought those vacuum-fomred sails were totally useless, but I found a decent purpose for them...paint trays! lol After they dried (with some help from the fiancee's hairdryer) I peeled them off the plastic sheet just like they were stickers! Then I attached the spritsail to the yard with a running stitch (delicate work)and ran clewlines from the corners of the sail into the clew blocks on the yard. (I'm only going with clewlines for these sails, I think...baby steps for now) Put it on a clamp, moistened it with water, and pulled the clews up to the blocks...then I tried to *furl* it, but had some trouble with finger access, so I basically just tied on the gaskets and let them do most of the gathering for me...it came out pretty uneven, but with some persuasion I got a kinda-sorta furled look, and called it good. Here's the back of the yard and sail.

Well, what do you all think?  It's an improvement from before, but it's still not what I was hoping for exactly...not sure if I'll let this one stay as-is, and try to do better on the rest, or pull it off and start over....

Dave

Dave, you've just about got it.

There are a few more lines that you probably want to deal with, though: the sheets. They hold the lower corners of the sails down to the yard below (or, if there is no yard below, to the ship's hull).

In that German drawing, the sheets are numbered #8. The spritsail sheets have blocks and pendants; they run from the clew of the sail to some belaying point on the hull near the bow. The fore and main sheets run from the clews of the fore- and mainsails aft; they probably would have pendants and blocks as well. It was typical for the standing end of the running part of the sheet to be seized or spliced to an eyebolt in the side of the hull, and the hauling end to pass through a hole in the bulwark and get belayed to a kevel or cleat.

The topsail sheets are single ropes. They run from the clews of the sails, down through blocks on the ends of the yard, then through blocks near the center of the yard, then to belaying pins in the fiferails.

The sheet for the lateen mizzen (also numbered #8 on the German drawing) is a simple tackle that runs from the clew of the sail to a belaying point at the very after end of the poop deck. Sometimes there's a long pole, called an outrigger or a boomkin, that sticks out of the stern and lets the sheet get hauled even further aft. (I can't tell whether your model has a boomkin or not; the German drawing doesn't.)

Then there are the fore and main tacks - simple, single lines that run forward from the clews to the rails forward of the mast. They're numbered #9 on the German drawing, though the angle of the drawing makes them a little hard to see.

The spritsail has no tacks - for obvious reasons.

You mentioned earlier in this thread that you've got a copy of the Anatomy of the Ship volume on the Susan Constant. The drawings in it should make all of this clear.

The rigging of this ship really is remarkably simple - and there's not a lot of repetition. And the scale is big and roomy. Anybody who's seen your other models will find it ludicrously obvious that you're up to a good rigging job on this one. (If you take on that Heller Ship That Shall Not Be Named, you'll get a real dose of what a mess seventeenth-century rigging can be.)

It looks to me like you're a week - or less - away from having this model finished. And it's going to be spectacular.

Thanks for the info, John!

I'm not sure how much rigging detail I'll get into with the sails, but I suppose installing the clews will at least make the sails look like they are actually part of the ship, and not just some material strapped to the yard.

Let's see if I have the basics of installation sequence correct:

I'll add a couple of blocks for the clewlines onto the yards, close to the center? 1/3rd of the way from center?

Cut out the sails, paint/glue them, and let them dry.

Attach clewlines to the sails corners.

Attach the sails to the yards with a running stitch or robbands.

THEN, attach the yard/sail to the mast.

Soften sail with some water, and form into a bundle/furl.

Then fasten into shape with gaskets tied around the sail/yard.

Final shaping of sail material while still damp.

I think that's more or less the sequence I'll be following?  And of course, in the meantime I'll practice some different styles of furling on a jig to see what I can come up with.  Not sure about gathering them up around the masts, in the shape of 2 Js, but I will work on getting the bundles fatter in the center....

Got a lot of learning to do this weekend!

D

We took up the disappearance of silkspan in a thread a few months back. The bottom line is that the stuff apparently is indeed off the market. But replacement substances are available.

I think the coffee filters will work fine. As I noted in that earlier thread, at least one kit manufacturer has supplied coffee filters for that purpose. If they're big enough for the largest of your sails, you're in business.

On this particular model you only have six sails to worry about. That German drawing is a good guide to how they'd be furled - with one exception.

The key lines in determining the shapes of the furled sails are the clewlines, which are numbered 10 on the drawing. The clew of the sail gets hauled right up to the block on the yard, forming the start of the bundle.

I'd cut the fore- and mainsails, and the spritsail, as shallow trapezoids.The two topsails are more complicated. They need to be shaped sort of like a T, so a really skinny bundle lies along the yard and a big fat bundle gets lashed to the lower masthead.

For some reason the German drawing doesn't show the rigging of the lateen mizzen. Two to four lines on each side, called brails, would haul the bottom of it up to blocks on the yard. The resulting bundle would be a little fatter in the middle, but not much. I'd cut that one as a wide, shallow triangle,

Your other problem, if you want to use the "painted and glued silkspan" trick, is that PolyScale paint is off the market. I think the acrylic paints sold in craft stores (and even at Walmart-Mart) would work just as well. (I particularly like a brand called Ceramcoat.) Those paints are sold in a huge variety of colors - and they're incredibly cheap. I suggest a dull pale grey, with a hint of tan. Add a small bottle of old-fashioned Elmer's white glue and have at it.

Good luck. I'm really looking forward to seeing this model in its finished state.

Nah....I just use simple copier paper..draw out the sail....pencil in the seam lines and stiching....possibly the leach lines...then crumple...crumple..crumple......well...crumple.

Perfect sails and soft..almost cloth like.

Good luck.

Rob

Thanks for the encouragement, you guys!

I'm definitely going to try a few different ideas before I decide on how to proceed.

I can't find silkspan anywhere (even eBay doesn't have it!), so I did a little cursory search, and read somewhere that silkspan is basically the same material as teabags are made from, so I thought, "hey, maybe coffee filter paper?"....so I sit here with parchment, printer paper, and a few coffee filters (which happen to be wide enough when flattened to reach the length of the widest sail from this kit!)....they are all in various stages of *crumple*, and I will spend some time working with each and trying a few techniques to see if I can tease them into a suitable form.

Now I'm on a mission to experiment and see what I can find that best works for me.

So far, some type of paper seems to be the best bet.

I'm glad to have found the ambition to expand my skills in this area, instead of just saying "good enough"...

Thanks again!

I'll update when I find some useful data!

Dave

Dave...to give some proper reassuring feedback.......I would suggest you forgo using the exact size of the sail to be modeled when in the furled position.  Many make the mistake of simply rolling up the sail as a cigarette...leaving blunted ends.  You want the sail to reef rom the edge taperingly...so it is necessary to cut the sail in a altered fashion so it furls more protypically.   You do not need the entire sail to replicate a furled sail...not if you want it to look proportional and natural.  Full sails need no description since they are full and are required to be so.

Rob

Dave,

I agree with Prof Tilley, you got a good start and part of this hobby is the fun of experimenting and trying something different.  Even as is, the furled sail you have is far better and compliments the model than using the plastic, blow molded ones that come in the kit or trying to use cloth, which ends up being horribly out of scale.

Scott