SSGN-WIP...paint question

I helped Dragon with the kit and can speak a bit to it. The Florida kit is an "upgrade" to their original SSGN kit from the early 90s. The original kit was done before CAD was used and they did not go back and re-create the entire kit in CAD. Instead, they merely drew the new pieces in CAD.  So, reviews of the original kit are probably 90% true to what you get in the Florida box. My biggest disappointment was that they decided not to pop a complete replacement for the turtleback piece but instead require the builder to saw at the original piece to remove the old shape and replace with a new forward half / third. This turns it into a kit that requires more experience and tools, in my opinion. If you have a saw and miter box, it's not hard to do, but it may be off putting for some.

Overall shape is good and you get two SEAL DDSs. Details may motivate the builder towards fixing depending (the engraved panel lines on the hull are overstated at least if not flat-out incorrect). There are inserts for at least a couple of the missile tubes so that you can show the concept of the Tomahawk launchers. in the old Trident tubes.

Thank you for you responses both of you.

Tracy, it sounds like it'll be a good kit for the purposes I need it to fill. Thank you for taking the time to share that information!

My pleasure - good luck with both the paper and the model!

Probably a way better kit than the old Renwal kit with a Regulus missile.  

Having served on two Ohio class submarines in my career, USS Michigan (SSBN 727) and USS Maine (SSBN 741), I can state that the panel lines are over stated.  There is also a minor fit issue between the upper and lower hull halves that is easily correctable.  Hull penetration details are lacking although that is a common issue with older kits and these are not really noticeable unless you know what you are looking for.  Masts and antennae are quite good.  The sail is good.  The shapes and proportions are good, and you can build a convincing model from this kit.

I hope that it helps!

Bill

CapnMac's comment had me puzzled for a while. I'm pretty sure Renwal went out of business several years before the first ship of the Ohio class was built.

I think maybe he's talking about the old Revell USS Nautilus, from the fifties. That one has an interesting history. (My source, as usual, is Dr. Thomas Graham's book on the history of Revell.

The launching of the Nautilus was a big, well-publicized event that got a lot of public attention. Three plastic kit manufacturers, Revell, Aurora, and Lindberg, raced to get kits on the market. Unfortunately the Navy hadn't declassified any reliable plans, and the kits were all based almost entirely on guesswork. The Revell designers completely missed the mark; their kit bore virtually no resemblance to the real thing. (Aurora and Lindberg did a little better - though not much.)

In its original form the Revell kit had a clear plastic window in the conning tower. That was so obviously wrong that the company deleted it after the first batch. But it left the utterly incorrect Regulus missile launcher. (Some Navy subs did carry such weapons, but the Nautilus never did.)

The kit has been reissued at least twice as part of Revell's "Special Subjects" program. Just a few years ago, if I remember right, it reappeared very briefly in a reissued "Nuclear Navy Gift Set" that also included the heavy cruiser Boston and a seaplane tender. (The original, fifties issue of the gift set had included the guided missile test ship Norton Sound, but the molds were subsequently modified to make the seaplane tender.)

That old Revell kit is just a curiosity today. I sure wish some company would release a mainstream styrene Nautilus. If there was ever a submarine that deserved recognition in the form of a model, she's it. I know there's a nice resin one available, but Dragon, Revell Germany, Tamiya - where are you?

Those who've bought the Revell reissue of the old Renwal Essex-class carrier - I have a vague recollection that it did have a Regulus launcher. Am I right, or is my senile memory acting up again?

John,

Micro Mir from Russia makes a styrene 1/350 USS Nautilus, as well as Skate class, Skipjack, Thresher/Permit, and Sturgeon (both initial and stretch hull versions) fast attack class submarines as well as a George Washington class SSBN.  They also make the Soviet-era Whiskey class boat.  I have ordered each to add to my submarine collection.

Bill

The Professor has deduced correctly.  I have strong--if muddled--memories of being quite young, and that kit being a present to me.  A bunch of Navy folk were visiting my dad, and they started building my kit (O the indignity of an oppressed 6 y/p)..

Part of the building process was a good-natured discussion on the differences between Destroyermen and those rapscallions in submarines.  Which devolved into some professional-knowledge discussions on how a V-1 would make a better representation than the Regulus-shaped object they were fussing over.

A couple decades' later, having matriculated Newport, I wanted to find some kits to bash up some of the photos I had seen.  Like an ex-German A-4 perched on a sub just to see if it could be done.  Or the rocket-boosted ex-V-1s used as impromptu cruise missilery.

Which would be the alfa of cruise missilery to the present omega Ohio-based SSGN boats.  Or as a contrast to the several soviet SSG boats.

I recently built a model of the nuclear Nautilus, a resin 1/350 model from Blue Ridge.

A very nice model and frankly on that scale resin makes a lot of sense.

The windows on the sail are correct- it was a steering station outside of the pressure hull.

There's a couple of good books about the polar transit.

Suffice to say that without GPS or a sounding anywhere along the line, the proof of the polar transit was where she entered the ice cap and where she exited it, with all the usual chart table calculations based on speed and direction in between.

GM, your model looks great. It would be nice if those vessels had more interesting color schemes, but that's beyond our control.

Bill, I found those Micro Mir kits on the Freetime Hobbies website. When your come, I hope you'll let us know how they are.

jtilley

GM, your model looks great. It would be nice if those vessels had more interesting color schemes, but that's beyond our control.

Actually, it's a misnomer that all of the nukes were black - a fair number of them had a medium gray sail as camouflage. Scorpion is one and you can see it in the photos taken just before she was lost. I have some photos of Nautilus in gray, but I believe it was when she was being decommissioned.

Thank you Dr. And in fact when she made the northern transit into the Barents Sea the hull numbers were painted over!

My God Father was an original in the nuclear fleet, out of University of Michigan OCS.

Spent a couple of summers each at Newport News, Pearl Harbor and Mare Island visiting his family way way back in the day.

Our old buddy Subfixer on this forum once told me that there was no better checked out person, result of good moral values, than a USN Boomer Captain.

My feelings exactly about Captain James Bush, USN Ret.

What about the original Nautilus that attempted the same trip?

A story for another day.

Gentlemen,

Submarine hull numbers are simply plaques which are hung when in port and removed prior to going to sea.

Bill

John,

I will be happy to let you all know about the Micro Mir kits when I get them. They are coming from Ukraine. It might take a few weeks.

I will say this about SSN/SSBN color schemes . . . I served in the submarine service for over 20 years, serving on six different submarines. I also served on a Submarine Tender in La Madelena, Sardinia, Italy for three years and many, many submarines pulled alongside for maintenance. I was stationed at New London, Pearl Harbor, Bangor, Washington, San Diego, and King's Bay, Georgia.  I never saw one that was painted anything other than black. Many, if not most, were painted red on the lower hull, but that was it. At no time did I ever see a sail painted gray, or red hatch covers, or any other oddity except for an old Gato/Ballao class boat used as a torpedo research boat at Bangor painted yellow.  The only time that I ever saw those DSRV rescue markings common to submarine models on this site was when a boat was on precommissioning trials, never when commissioned.

That said, those photos referred to by Tracy were taken in the 1960's. Those boats might have been so painted for experimentation, much like the British use of blue paint on one of the Trafalgar class boats during the 1990's.  The Nautilus may have been painted gray at the beginning of her career, but that is my guess rather than a statement of fact. Tracy is an excellent researcher.

Bill

Bill - I have two booklets from a four volume set from June 1963 scanned in; "Ships Concealment Camouflage Instructions - Reducing Ship Visibility Concealment Painting Instructions." Aside from the GUPPYs, there are examples of George Washington, Halibut, Skate, Skipjack, Triton, Thresher, and Tullibee with gray sails. There's a difference between drawn out and ordered into usage, but the possibility was certainly there officially.

I haven't been able to find anything newer, but even these were a big surprise. As far as I know following WWII there were booklets issued in 1952 and 1963, but after that or in between, I have no knowledge.

warshipguy

Gentlemen,

Submarine hull numbers are simply plaques which are hung when in port and removed prior to going to sea.

Bill

"As Nautilus moved slowly through the inky blackness of Puget Sound, I sent word to Lieutenant Bob Kelsey, a Coloradan who had watch on the main deck, to paint over our identifying numerals on the bow, stern, and sail."

Highly recommended book BTW.

As far as the colors, the kit had an as-launched scheme that I recollect as basically black with a gray fairing along the top of the hull and a black sail. But I've misplaced the directions and in any case it deserves a better reference, so I'll leave it at that. Mine's all black.

Tracy,

I certainly don't doubt what you are saying. In fact, your reference bears out what I've said, that it is possible that during the 1950's and 1960's there was some experimentation with colors for submarines. However, my own service in the Submarine Service began in the mid-1970's and lasted through 1996.  My service took me to every submarine base in the Atlantic and the Pacific, including the Mediterranean. I have been stationed aboard fast attacks and boomers. I live near Groton/New London now and am on the SUBASE at least once a week.  In all of that time I have never seen any submarine painted in anything but black. The only markings I have seen on commissioned boats is the draft markings.  I have never seen a boat with hull numbers painted on the sail or the hull, and the name of the boat is certainly not painted on.

Bill

The "gray sail" schemes weren't experimental, they were just evolutions to past patterns. During the war, Submarines were sometimes Measure 9 (all black), but more often they were in a submarine based version of Measure 32 (dazzle) that was either pattern 3SS or 9SS. The big take away is that these two schemes featured black decks, but lighter gray sails so that the subs could operate on the surface and be less conspicuous. The only difference between the two schemes was the gray that was used; one was a light gray and the other was a dark gray.

The 1953 Camouflage manual continued this - the schemes that were settled upon were the same and the only difference was the gray that was used (light, medium, and dark). "SS 7" used #7 "Navy" Gray, "SS-17" used #17 "Ocean" Gray, etc. Below is a snipped from the 1963 manual:

There are only three basic concealment painting measures for surface ships and four for submarines. With the exception of the LC measure for surface ships—which is a unique application of paints designed primarily to blend with foliage patterns along shorelines—all paint measures are variations of gray shades from dark to light.  These measures are designated by a number ("7," "11," "17," or "27") which equals the percent of light-reflectance of the gray paint applied to the large vertical surfaces—the sides—of the vessel under that measure. This degree of reflectance determines the darkness or lightness of a measure; thus the larger the percent of reflectance, the lighter the measure.

Following is a list of the authorized concealment painting measures:

Surface Ships

US17 (Basic shade of "Ocean Gray" applied to sides)

US27 (Basic shade of "Haze Gray" applied to sides)

LC (Foliage pattern of mottled greens, brown, and black applied overall)

Submarines

SS7 (Basic shade of "Navy Gray" applied to vertical surfaces)

SS11 (Basic shade of "Outside Gray" applied to vertical surfaces)

SS17 (Basic shade of "Ocean Gray" applied to vertical surfaces)

SS27 (Basic shade of "Haze Gray" applied to vertical surfaces)

The vertical surfaces by this time were just the sail - the turtle back did not count. Now, these weren't experimental schemes, but they weren't for every sub. Boomers shouldn't surface on patrols, so there's no need to have the gray sail, and the all-black sail becomes more appealing because it's better camouflage in the deep.

Essentially, nuclear power and ELINT aircraft killed the gray sails.

It's interesting that none of us has even mentioned masts and antennas.  Throughout my career, these were painted a light gray with black mottling on the tubing. They were capped with black tops. Some boats even had sea-green on the extensions, but not all. Today, the masts and antennas seem to be painted a single color of dark-gray.

Tracy, Boomers do find it necessary to surface at times for various reasons, for example, MEDEVAC or personnel transfers. They do not do so in their patrol areas except in extremely rare emergencies. Remember, George Washington ripped the keel out of a Japanese ship once when surfacing under her.  All such surfacings are rare and dependent upon a given emergency situation, but they do happen.

Bill

This thread is a wealth of information

Josiah,

As John Tilley has pointed out on occasion, we are a strange but harmless bunch. I would like to add to that assessment that we are a knowledgeable bunch of characters as well.

Anyway, back to your original question . . . the Dragon/ Cyber Hobby USS Florida will enable you to build a reasonable replica of one of the four SSGN conversions.

Bill

warshipguy

Throughout my career, these were painted a light gray with black mottling on the tubing. They were capped with black tops. Some boats even had sea-green on the extensions, but not all. Today, the masts and antennas seem to be painted a single color of dark-gray.

From the aforementioned instructions:

 "#27 Gray basic coat, spots with soft edge #7 gray, 50% of area spots, 50% of area background"

The #7 gray was a dark gray and could appear black, or it's possible that this was revised to black later on.

warshipguy

Tracy, Boomers do find it necessary to surface at times for various reasons, for example, MEDEVAC or personnel transfers.

I wasn't trying to suggest that they NEVER surfaced - I've seen too many steel beach photos to think so. More so that they should not as part of their normal missions. Camouflage from above is much m ore important than than from the side these days. We used to send submarines to loiter around enemy states to listen in on radio communications, but we have better resources now, so there's no mission that really requires a lot of surface time in the modern day.

Hey Tracy :

      Didn't the RENWAL company do the George Washington with the clear sides before REVELL did it ? Seems to this fuddled old mind  . I did have both and the RENWAL boat WAS a wee bit larger than the REVELL boat as well . About an inch longer overall .

       I had the U.S.S. Nautilus with the windows and without .Again this seemed to be a company decision . My nautiluses were all black .That's what the instructions said to paint them . Only one had the windows . I had a Jane.s back then as a guide , so the badly molded Regulus went in the round file .

Tanker,

Renwal released different such kits under the name USS George Washington, USS Abraham Lincoln, and different molds for USS Ethan Allen and USS Thomas Jefferson.  Renwal did make the effort to model some external class differences such as the smoother forward end of the missile compartment and the different location of the sail planes, or fairwater planes in the Ethan Allen class. Early releases had a clear starboard side and a solid port side. This was later revised to a fold-down starboard side in lieu of the clear plastic.  The stated scale was 1/200 with a length of 25 inches.  Early releases included only one row of 8 Polaris missile tubes, later revised to two rows of 8.  The exterior shape was generally good but there was a molded on row of hand rails molded onto the sail.

Revell had their own USS George Washington that was also released as the USS Abraham LIncoln. It was shorter, measuring 18 inches, had no molded on handrails. Early releases had a fold-down starboard side; later releases had a cutaway starboard side.

I am unaware of these boats being released under any other names, but I suppose it was possible.  I also do not know which kit was released first, the Renwal or the Revell.

Bill

Well I hope all of you don't mind, I'm going to do my WIP of this sub in this thread....I didn't want to leave all this knowledge left to whither into the depths of the forums.  If you guys have any objections just let me know and I'll create a new thread...and please, don't stop what y'all have been doing just cuz I'm changing the title to WIP, PLEASE continue.

Anyways, here are the kit contents for anybody who's interested, as I said before, first model of a seaworthy vessel that I've ever done but it doesn't appear to be anything I cannot handle... I will say this last thing, most of the pictures will be with my phone, though I will take finished pictures with my camera and if anybody wants detailed shots of anything I will use it then as well.

Well, progress is underway...this thing is huge. I'm going to leave the the rear two missile bays open to show the TLAM configuration. I'm also going to put on the various periscope/communications arrays til the end as I will invariably end up breaking them off.

Nice clamps. Who what where?

Xacto brand, got them along with some other tools from a guy from my dad's work.