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1/96 USS Constitution - more questions

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  • Member since
    May 2006
  • From: Chapin, South Carolina
Posted by Shipwreck on Wednesday, August 23, 2006 11:16 AM
I was wondering how that Sandstone paint would look on sails to give them a fabric like texture. Has anyone tried using a clear matte on a wheathered pre-formed sail? I am thinking about paint scale here!

On the Bench:

Revell 1/96 USS Constitution - rigging

Revell 1/48 B-1B Lancer Prep and research

Trumpeter 1/350 USS Hornet CV-8 Prep and research

 

 

 

  • Member since
    July 2006
Posted by Michael D. on Tuesday, August 22, 2006 9:09 PM

Thanks Wilbur, those sails were as you can imagine fairly teadous i thought i'd never get them done i think that had alot to do with the way revell sequenced the steps, clearly some of the later steps i felt could of been written in earlier steps in the instruction sheet. Man there is so many things i'll do different now in my proceeding builds thanks to this site, but for not taking on one of these for over ten years, and lack of knowledge i'm happy with it. Weathering that hull was my 1st attempt at it, so i wanted to keep it simple, and used but 2 colors..deep green, and white acrylic dabbed on with a sponge, and smugged with a damp paper towel, and my fingers.

The sails were kind of tough in that they had a fabric finish applied to fronts, and not the backs so to match the texture, and color i used rustoliums sandstone on the back sides, and weathered using 3 colors..flat earth, desert yellow, and white thinning as needed using a brush, and again my fingers.

I believe the time taken to do a well done paint job can help in making up for any short comings a modeler may have.. me included, be it rigging inaccuratecies etc, and end up with nice looking finished product. Build it to your liken, and you can't wrong.

 

  • Member since
    February 2006
  • From: Boston
Posted by Wilbur Wright on Tuesday, August 22, 2006 6:43 PM
Michael D. , That is a great looking ship. How difficult were the sails to attach/rig?

The copper looks fantastic, as well as the sail color/weathering.

Would love to know how you did both.

I am normally a ship and plane modeler. The QM2 up next then the Constitution.

Right now I am building a model of the International Space Station  (something new for me) however on the subject of scale and paint, I have to say that on a space model gloss would seem to work well, but it doesn't. I am using flat MM paint and it looks very realistic as opposed to the gloss that I began with and stripped. The article posted in this thread on scale and paint from Titanic (I believe) is good advice.

Great to see those photos, Thanks!



  • Member since
    February 2006
Posted by Grymm on Tuesday, August 22, 2006 4:52 PM

I've used the Krylon semi-flat also.  A friend of mine one day pointed out to me a couple of ships he had built, one hull in the Krylon and the other using flat black, then a clear satin.  There was virtually no difference.  I use the satin clear over flat because that's what I've got, and I have the option of using just the flat if I want (for certain parts, if necessary).

And in answer to the question that everyone has already answered.  I never leave any parts unpainted.  Naked plastic looks like, well, naked plastic.

Grymm

  • Member since
    June 2005
  • From: Walworth, NY
Posted by Powder Monkey on Tuesday, August 22, 2006 3:48 PM
 Goshawk wrote:


 For my Yacht America (pictures of which will be posted soon) I used Krylon (yes, you heard correctly) Semi Flat Black. There is just enough sheen to "suggest" the wood grain and plank lines without screaming they're there. And this paint if applied correctly goes on skin tight, as good as an airbrushed finish.


 

 



I think Krylon Semi flat is great stuff. It goes on nicely and dries quickly. As you say the sheen is just right. And if you use it in conjuncion with flat black and other manufacturer's semi flat, it adds detail in that everything is not the same color or sheen.Smile [:)]

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: New York City
Posted by Goshawk on Tuesday, August 22, 2006 12:29 PM

I, being a little more comfortable than jtilley with "always" and "never", would say that if you want your model to be taken seriously by other ship modelers, NEVER leave unpainted plastic showing. Period. As Mr. Tilley pointed out, plastic has a certain "quality" that when compared to a painted surface, will almost scream "plastic". And as Mr. Tilley has also pointed out (repeatedly), plastic ship modelers have a couple of strikes against them to begin with where the "serious" ship modeling community is concerned.

Which brings me to my second point. Use flat paint on the hull of your Cutty Sark. Please. Maybe semi-flat, but nothing glossier. This will hide the fact that the molded in detail is raised and not recessed the way a wooden ship's detail would be. Take a very close look at the sides of the hull pieces, the wood grain and plank lines stick out from the surface. In theory, they should cut into the surface. By using a gloss paint, this becomes even more apparent. For my Yacht America (pictures of which will be posted soon) I used Krylon (yes, you heard correctly) Semi Flat Black. There is just enough sheen to "suggest" the wood grain and plank lines without screaming they're there. And this paint if applied correctly goes on skin tight, as good as an airbrushed finish.

If you want to add a little glitz in the form of glossy paint, do it in very small amounts in appropriate details. Metal fittings, skylights and possibly blocks and such go a long way to "brightening" the model without causing it to look toy-like.

For what it's worth.

Tory

 

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Tuesday, August 22, 2006 11:43 AM

I think most experienced modelers (regardless of subject matter) would agree with GeorgeW: leaving plastic unpainted is rarely a good idea.  If I weren't so uncomfortable with "alwayses" and "nevers," I'd go so far as to say "unpainted plastic should never be left visible."  (Obvious exception:  clear plastic.) 

Styrene plastic has a distinctive appearance.  In addition to the question of glossiness, it has, for want of a better term, a slightly translucent look.  Compare one of those hull halves to a painted surface with about the same amount of gloss.  My guess is you won't have any trouble telling which one is unpainted plastic.

Modern kit manufacturers who appeal to experienced, adult modelers often mold all the parts of a kit in a neutral grey, on the assumption that the modeler intends to paint every square millimeter of it.  Most of the new aircraft kits, and many of the new armor kits coming onto the market these days seem to be grey.  The sailing ship companies (such as they are) haven't gotten onto that particular bandwagon; frankly I wish they would. 

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    February 2006
  • From: The green shires of England
Posted by GeorgeW on Tuesday, August 22, 2006 11:33 AM

Great reference Bryan, it confirms my long held view that there is little scope for 'shiny paint' on model ships, particularly period ships.

I think care has to be taken even with 'satin' finishes which can almost revert a paint job to look like unpainted plastic.

Regarding the previous post I wouldn't  personally leave the Cutty Sark Hull unpainted, but how it would look with just a clear coat applied I don't know as I've never tried it, perhaps others have.

  • Member since
    August 2006
Posted by Mike on Tuesday, August 22, 2006 10:46 AM

Grymm, thanks for the tips. On the Revell Cutty Sark the plastic hull is molded in a glossy black. What about not painting the black parts?

  • Member since
    January 2005
  • From: Maastricht, The Netherlands
Posted by bryan01 on Tuesday, August 22, 2006 10:39 AM

For further explanation about colors and scale effect see this link:

http://titanic-model.com/articles/paints/LINK%20PAGE_Painting%20your%20model%20for%20the%20greatest%20realism/Painting%20your%20model%20for%20the%20greatest%20realism.htm

Although primarily aimed at ocean liner modelers – Titanic in particular – the essence applies to virtually all models.

More on the same website about colors:

http://www.titanic-model.com/articles/paints/WEBPAGE_Paint%20Reference%20Main%20Page/WEBPAGE_Paint%20Reference%20Main%20Page.htm

Good luck,

 

 

Bryan
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Tuesday, August 22, 2006 7:26 AM

Several things are going on here.  Old photos can be deceptive about gloss and sheen; bright sunlight bouncing off a flat-painted surface can make it look glossier in a photo than it was in real life.  And paint weathers; nineteenth-century paints probably weathered more quickly than modern ones.  A ship's hull that was painted gloss black probably wouldn't be particularly shiny after a few weeks' exposure to sunlight and saltwater.

Modern modelers tend instinctively to use flat paints.  There is a "scale effect" that has an even greater impact on glossiness than it does on color.  (You can change the scale of your model, but you can't change the size of the light beams that hit it - or the eye with which you look at it.)  I don't believe this sort of thing can be quantified, but the impact of it clearly varies with the scale.  Ocean liners, for instance, almost invariably are painted with glossy paint - but a 1/700 ship model painted with identically shiny paint looks ridiculous.

My personal opinion is that on scales like 1/96 it's perfectly appropriate for surfaces that were painted on the real ship to look different - and shinier - than those that weren't.  An unpainted deck on 1/96 scale will look hokey if it's shiny, but if there's a subtle difference in sheen between the deck planking and the varnished deckhouse that sits on it, or the white-painted bulwark that forms the edge of it - great.   

I've played around a little with acrylic artist varnishes; to my taste they're a little on the thick side, and tend to get in the way of detail.  Clear semi-gloss finishes like the ones Testor's sells are ok, but if you aren't extremely careful they'll give you more sheen than you want.  Acrylic paint on plastic will acquire a little bit of gloss if, after it's throroughly dry, you simply rub it with your finger tip.  On my 1/96-scale model of the little pilot schooner Phantom I tried a trick I hadn't used before:  I painted the hull (which was cast in resin) flat black and, after it had dried for several weeks, gave it a thin coat of wax (specifically Renaissance Wax, a micro-crystalline wax that's often used in museums for conservation work) and buffed it gently.  I'm pretty happy with the results.  Here's a link to some pictures, though the angles are such that they don't really show off the effect:  http://www.hmsvictoryscalemodels.be/JohnTilleyPhantom/index.html

Beware of anybody who uses the words "always" or "never" in any context related to model building.  Personally, I have three "nevers":  never use tea or coffee to dye fabric, never use lead for anything, and never spit in a man's face unless his mustache is on fire.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    August 2006
  • From: Sydney, Australia
Posted by Robert on Tuesday, August 22, 2006 3:50 AM
Grymm I am interested that you said ships of the CS era were more to the gloss side. I have many books with photos of ships of the Civil war era and certainly the funnels look shiny and so do the hulls. Yet many, many modellers on many sites say you should always have a flat finish. How can that be right when the photos so clearly show a sheen? 
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, August 21, 2006 11:28 PM

Michael,

No problem about posting the pics. I found them to be useful and inspirational. I can't wait until I really get into the meat of building my kit. I know it's going to be a lot of fun for a lot of weekends into the next few months. I'm definetely going to save your pics to a folder on my computer for reference along with all the other build-ups I've seen. Building tanks or jets is one thing, but something as complex as a ship - and it being my first, seems like it's a good idea to have all the reference one can lay hands on. Rest assured I'll be posting progress photos as I work.

Matt

  • Member since
    February 2006
Posted by Grymm on Monday, August 21, 2006 9:54 PM

Michael,

Beautiful job on the Constitution.  I am very impressed that you were able to make those plastic sails work.  I'm currently working with a fabric store to make cloth sails that are literally "permanently starched", using the kit sails as molds for the cloth sails.  My wife is going to be doing all the sewing for me....well hopefully...when I tell her....

Michael, could you do me a favor.  My email is pstanfield38@aol.com.  Would it be much trouble for you to send me your entire picture archive of your build?  I'm building a reference library for my own build.  I have two Constitutions to build (for each of my boys) and would love to see your work...

Thanks,

Grymm

ps...hey JTilley, I'm finally taking your advice.   Rigging ships in the days of spritsail topmast and the book on Lord Nelson's ships are on my xmas list.

....yeah, yeah, yeah, I know....you finally convinced me to get a little more accurate...

  • Member since
    February 2006
Posted by Grymm on Monday, August 21, 2006 9:47 PM

Hi Mike,

Well, I don't use enamels, because of the exact problem you describe.  I always ended up with very heavy brush strokes no matter how I thinned it.  I gave up models for a couple of decades, working with resin figures in the interim, and learned the joy of painting in acrylics.  For me, acrylics work perfectly and I seldom get brush strokes.  Now, the downside for some acrylics is that it can take more than one coat depending on the brand and the colour.

What I do (and I'm sure JTilley has some great suggestions) is, for the hull of the Cutty Sark for example, is paint with the horizontal lines of the hull.  That way, any serious brush strokes will dissappear into the plank lines.  But I will say that, with acrylics being easily thinned with water, that I've never had any serious issues with deep brush strokes.  Any that I do end up with are very subtle and seem to blend in with the hull lines...

Tell you what.  Here's what I did.  I got a bottle of enamel black, and a bottle of acrylic black.  I painted with both and decided which type to use based on that.   I just never got along with enamels.  But, make sure you put a clear satin down when your done.  Ships like the CS weren't really "flat" black.  Indeed, ships of that era were more to the gloss side.  A satin coat looks more in scale.

  • Member since
    July 2006
Posted by Michael D. on Sunday, August 20, 2006 7:45 PM
 Wasnt sure if i was highjacking your thread by posting some pics, but thought you might get some ideas. I like sails myself, and thank you for the complement...best of luck on your build Matt.
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, August 20, 2006 7:34 PM

Michael,

Wow! That's a really nice job! I'm hoping my first effort will look that good. I also like that you made it with the sails. I know there's differing points of view on rigging with or without sails but it somehow seems wrong to me to build a "sailing" ship without having it's sails unfurled and billowing. Once again, great job.

Matt

  • Member since
    August 2006
Posted by Mike on Sunday, August 20, 2006 3:23 PM
Grymm, How much in the way of brush strokes and uneven paint do you tolerate? I am in the middle of painting my cutty sark hull a flat black ( my first ship model) and tried it with a brush although I used testors modelmaster enamel but it seems too thick and there are visible lines in the paint. Do you have any photos of what it should look like?
  • Member since
    July 2006
Posted by Michael D. on Sunday, August 20, 2006 9:20 AM

Here's a few shots of mine, although recently completed.. For the decks i glued the pieces together first, and used a little putty to fill the seams then painted the decks for a one piece look. Overall  it looks ok. I want tackle this baby again once i finish my 2 other projects.

 

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Sunday, August 20, 2006 9:13 AM

Actually, planking the deck of this particular kit isn't as difficult as it may look at first glance.  I did it on the one I built about thirty years ago.  The designers (probably unintentionally) made it relatively easy.

Normally, the big problem would be to contend with the extra thickness the planks would add to the plastic deck.  But take a look at how the decks (both spar deck and gun deck) are mounted to the hull halves.  Inside the hull halves are some big horizontal pins, which support the decks.  The pins are mounted in pairs, about (if I remember right) 1/8"" apart.  Molded on the bottom of the deck components are a series of vertical pins, which fit between the ones on the hull halves.  The interesting thing is that each pin on the underside of the deck parts sits in the middle of a flat plastic "pad," which happens to be just about 1/32" thick.  In other words, the mechanism for mounting the deck consists of a series of T-shaped projections on the bottoms of the deck components, mating with horizontal pins on the hull halves. (Just why those pads are there I don't know; maybe they correct an error earlier in the design process.) 

Shave off the pads with an Xacto knife, and the whole deck assembly drops by 1/32".  Plank it with 1/32"-thick basswood, and it's back up to the proper level.  (You'll have to add 1/32" strips to the tops of the hatch coamings and other projections too, but there aren't many of them.  Revell made just about all the deck furniture in the form of separate pieces.) 

I used basswood on mine; if I were doing it today I'd use holly veneer, but basswood is much easier to find and actually works pretty well.  Another tip:  before you lay each plank, run a pencil around the edge.  That will produce a fine, dark grey line to represent the caulking, and can't be removed by any subsequent scraping or sanding.

On my old model I used Revell tube-type plastic cement (now, alas, no longer available) to stick down the planks.  It was good stuff; it softened the surface of the plastic and soaked into the wood, making a good, solid bond.  The only widely-available tube-type plastic cement currently available seems to be that stringy, too-fast-drying Testor's stuff.  (I can remember the days when Testor's started mixing oil of mustard into it, to ward off glue sniffers.  It hasn't been the same since.)  Whether that would work satisfactorily for wood/styrene joints I don't know.

For a finish, I like the "Driftwood" color wood stain sold by Olympic Paints (available from places like Lowe's), followed by a coat white shellac, diluted almost beyond recognition with denatured alcohol.

If I remember correctly, planking both those decks, once I'd laid in the necessary quantity of basswood strips, took me about two evenings.  A pretty modest investment in time for a big improvement in the finished model's appearance.  And probably not much more time than it would take to eradicate the awful joints between the deck sections.

Maybe I shouldn't mention the following point, but in my much younger years I missed the other big problem with that kit:  the fact that the hull sides are too thin.  That really isn't Revell's fault; with 1965 technology it probably wasn't possible to make them any thicker without introducing major problems with shrinkage.  If I were doing the kit again (gawd forbid) I'd try to fix that.  It wouldn't be hard to add some plastic strip around the edges of the ports on the gun deck, but the spar deck bulwarks would be a bigger problem.  I'd be tempted to ignore that one.

Good luck.  It's a great old kit.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, August 20, 2006 7:43 AM

Hi guys:

 

I too am at the beginning stage of building this ship. So far I have the hull togethern and have just installed and painted the gun deck. I have also painted the hull with Poly scale acrylics, except for the copper plating which was alclad II lacquer. I haven't decided if I should wheather the copper hull as of this writing. One thing I did do was to pour 2 sections of resin castings into the lower hull at the keel so I could make a firm attachment with the brass pesdicals I have for mounting it to a wood base.

I will try to post some in progress pictures later today.

I have purchased a ton of bass wood so I can plank the main deck with wood, really sick right!!

 

Dick Wood

  • Member since
    January 2005
  • From: Maastricht, The Netherlands
Posted by bryan01 on Sunday, August 20, 2006 3:06 AM

Hi Jake,

I initially had the same problem. Go to their forum first and then to "What's on your workbench".

http://www.ipmsbaycolony.com/mambo/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=47

 

 

Bryan
  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Lacombe, LA.
Posted by Big Jake on Saturday, August 19, 2006 8:27 PM

hi.

I tried to find your pictures but the link ans website did not have a workbench listing could you post the link for us?

Jake

 

 

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, August 19, 2006 3:29 PM

Greetings from Massachusetts. I'm currently working on my USS Constitution and this is my 4th time building it. I'm part of the Bay Colony modeling club in Massachusetts and I've got a posting with pictures of my model in process along with a write up I did. The ship hopefully will be ready for a model show in November, but I do have a long way to go. I'm getting ready to set the masts and looking to starting rigging her in the next couple weeks. One quick piece of advise, the pre-formed ratlines that come with the kit, if you have the time and patience make your own. They don't line up with the deadeyes and homemade ones will look better. My girlfriend thinks I'm nuts making my own, but for what it's worth, I think homemade ratlines will make the ship look better. If you can, get "How to Build Ships" by Les Wilkens. Another modeler suggested that, and let me tell you, some of the information in the book is a big help, especially with a ship like the Constitution.

You can read what I wrote up so far and hopefully it'll be of some help for you depending on how far you've progressed. Here's the website: ipmsbaycolony.com got to "What's on you workbench" and click on U.S.S Constitution

Looking forward to hearing from you

Ed Rosario 

  • Member since
    February 2006
  • From: Boston
Posted by Wilbur Wright on Saturday, August 19, 2006 3:15 PM
Tenax 7R is the best plastic model  "Glue" ever made. It is actually not a glue but a welder that dries in 10 seconds or so.  Styrene to styrene there simply is nothing better and no smell.

Of course you will also use cyno on a model like this for the rigging etc.

If you are going to do this model and invest the time involved buy new testors MM paint.

Rule of thumb for me is whatever the model cost............it will cost 50% of that again in materials.

My big B36 model......a ten month model...........at least  $40-50 in paint.

  • Member since
    February 2006
Posted by Grymm on Saturday, August 19, 2006 2:50 PM

When hand-brushing, I do not thin my paint, unless it absolutely needs it (like it's drying out, or something like that.)  Acrylics can be hard to work with.  But too thin and the paint won't adhere to the suface.

I'm not big on brush sizes, but, for general hull painting, I'll use a squared tip that's about 1/2 inch wide. 

Grymm

  • Member since
    August 2006
Posted by Mike on Saturday, August 19, 2006 7:48 AM

When you paint your hull using a brush and acrylics, what size brush do you use? Do you thin the paint at all?

Mike

  • Member since
    July 2006
Posted by Michael D. on Friday, August 18, 2006 10:40 PM

Personally i think it's an awesome kit, i just finished mine recently after a 4 month build,and have some photos if interested. I pretty much built mine straight from the box except for the shrouds and ratlines..not the best job, but effective, and enjoyed every minute. I used mostly acrlyics for ease of cleanup and no fumes. The only parts i sprayed were the decks, and masts with testors spray cans. However which way you choose to build it we'll be looking forward to some pics..good luck.

Michael

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Friday, August 18, 2006 10:29 PM

Grymm,

I was thinking acrylics as well. My wife uses them exclusively for her horse models and gets excellent results with both the air brush and with brush painting. She used to use medium viscosity Liquitex acrylics but now uses some brand called Jo Sonja's which seem to be good well pigmented colors with good flow characteristics.

I do intend to take pics as I start the build since my dad is interested in seeing how it goes. I think I might be able to convince him to build one as well - he's retired so he certainly has more free time than I do. I was also planning on using replacement wire eyelets. I just figured I'd have to make them by twisting wire but since you mentioned the necklace section I'll have to check that out as well.

As for the build itself, I'm going to follow the lead of the Len Roberto build-up. It sounds like he did a lot of the research and chose to build the version from the War of 1812 which is what I wanted to do as well. Anyway, thanks to everyone for yet more good advice. It's on to the supply store tomorrow to get fresh paints and supplies and then on to getting started.

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