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Cutty sark disaster

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  • Member since
    May 2006
  • From: Chapin, South Carolina
Posted by Shipwreck on Thursday, February 11, 2010 9:27 AM

Here is news about the Cutty Sark that is almost as bad as a fire. We probably should be skeptical about the following article; but, unfortunately, its message has been confirmed by several other articles. You may want to look at...

 http://www.greenwich.co.uk/andrew-gilligan/02765-cutty-sark-disaster-the-11-million-nail-in-the-coffin/

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Revell 1/96 USS Constitution - rigging

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  • Member since
    May 2007
  • From: Atlanta, Georgia
Posted by RTimmer on Thursday, February 11, 2010 10:40 AM

Thanks for posting.  If true, even in part, it is dreadful news.  I am stunned by the proposal to use it essentially as a prop for a corporate hospitality center.  Let's hope that the Trust is more forthcoming on its plans, costs, and schedule.  It seems that to restore trust in the management of this project, they should open themselves to an outside auditor. 

Oh well... thanks for the update.  Cheers, Rick

MJH
  • Member since
    April 2005
  • From: Melbourne, Australia
Posted by MJH on Friday, February 12, 2010 6:00 AM

If this is all true (and all media reports should be treated as suspect until proven) it shows that the present incumbents have no actual feelings for the Cutty Sark but see it only as a means to an end - the end in this case being the gratification of their own egos and ambitions.

They'd probably be happy to scrap the ship and replace it with a fibreglass replica!  Obviously the 'Trust' has lost the plot, if they ever had it that is...

Incidentally, am I alone in thinking it's taking political correctmess a bit far when we contemplate cutting massive holes in such an old and priceless artifact to put in lifts for wheelchairs?

 

Michael

!

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: NJ
Posted by JMart on Saturday, February 13, 2010 3:49 PM

MJH

Incidentally, am I alone in thinking it's taking political correctmess a bit far when we contemplate cutting massive holes in such an old and priceless artifact to put in lifts for wheelchairs?

Maybe has nothing to do with PC or shades thereoff, but local legal permits and regulations. The USS Intrepid floating museum in New York City is listed as a "building" for fire code purposes and subjected to the same regulations as the irish pub two blocks away.

 

 

  • Member since
    January 2007
  • From: Richmond, Va.
Posted by Pavlvs on Monday, February 22, 2010 3:54 PM

I am a huge fan of Cutty Sark (although the scotch bearing her name leaves much to be desired) She is the ONLY surviving clipper.  The clippers were the example of when sail touched perfection.  You don't screw that up!  I am also wheelchair bound and I am appalled that they would take this now unique piece of maritime history and give her a makeover that the Disney people would find tacky at best just to accommodate wheelchairs.  Tea Clippers were not for handicapped people, get over it.  If you are going to throw that much money around then restore Cutty Sark  to her original state and build a second replica that is wheelchair accessible.  It just might cost less.  The Intrepid is big and modern enough to install elevators without losing the overall authenticity of the ship.  This same ruination has been done to the Olympia in Philadelphia with poured concrete on her decks to accommodate tourists.  If keeping her authentic to her origins means I can not go aboard her (something I would love to do someday) then so be it.  Maybe they can put the replica in the water and sail her.  You don't screw up a singular piece of history and you don't experiment with something so one-of-a-kind.2 cents

Deus in minutiae est. Fr. Pavlvs

On the Bench: 1:200 Titanic; 1:16 CSA Parrott rifle and Limber

On Deck: 1/200 Arizona.

Recently Completed: 1/72 Gato (as USS Silversides)

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Tuesday, February 23, 2010 8:21 AM

I hesitate to comment in detail on this interesting issue because (a) I'm not knowledgeable about British law regarding access for the disabled, and (b) I don't know how much of the published information to believe.  I have no reason to question the intent of the reporters who've been covering the Cutty Sark story, but topics like this have so many subtle complications that they often get distorted by the time they reach the public.  And I've seen several "artists' versions" of the plans for the new facilities in the "drydock"; I don't know which of those are just ideas that were floated at one time or another, and which, if any, represent what's actually going to be done.  (For that matter, I'm not at all sure the responsible parties have decided what the finished product is going to look like.)  I would, however, like to offer some generalized comments that may be relevant.

I think I can claim to sympathize with the concept of "disabled access"; I've got some physical problems that make it tough for me to get around in some circumstances, and I certainly don't think people confined to wheelchairs ought to be denied access to anything unnecessarily.  I repeat:  I don't know what British law says about the subject.  But I do know something about American law as it relates to the subject, and I suspect the British equivalent is similar. 

I teach a college course in historic preservation planning (i.e., the preservation of old buildings).  One of the basic laws affecting that field is the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) of 1990.  The Department of Justice maintains a big website that covers it pretty thoroughly:  http://www.ada.gov/ .  In most respects (there are obvious exceptions), ships are covered by the same ADA provisions that govern buildings.

The basic idea behind ADA is that public facilities (i.e., those to which the public is routinely admitted - whether publicly or privately owned) are supposed to be "accessible" to the disabled.  In practical terms, that means a person in a wheelchair has to be able to get into all parts of the building that are accessible to other members of the public (albeit not necessarily by the same route).  That means, in turn, that elevators, or ramps of a specified grade, have to be provided as alternatives to steps, and openings such as doors have to be at least four feet wide.

When ADA was passed there was a brief wave of panic among historic preservationists.  Installing an elevator or a wheelchair ramp, in addition to being expensive (sometimes extremely expensive), obviously can require gutting an old building - to the point where the very nature and character of the building cease to exist.  Fortunately, however, somebody involved in the writing of the law had the sense to figure that out.  The law contains language that grants exceptions in the case of historic structures:  "Alterations to historic properties must comply with the specific provisions governing historic properties ..., to the maximum extent feasible.  [My italics.]  Under those provisions, alterations should be done in full compliance with the alterations standards for other types of buildings.  However, if following the usual standards would threaten or destroy the historic significance of a feature of the building, alternative standards may be used."  Some such "standards" are spelled out in more detail, but in plenty of cases the people in charge of the structures, sometimes with the help of the State Historic Preservation Office, have to figure out for themselves how to bring those structures into compliance.

Nobody's quite sure what all the implications of ADA for old buildings are in the long run.  In the American legal system, the detailed meaning of laws only gets established when those laws get "tested in court" - i.e., when somebody gets arrested for violating the law and tries to convince a federal court that either (a) he really didn't violate the law, or (b) the law is unconstitutional.  So far there haven't been any big, decisive, landmark cases involving ADA and historic structures.  So the people responsible for operating historic buildings - and ships - are interpreting the law as best they can, and hoping for the best.

There's just no way the U.S.S. Consitution could be made entirely, or even mostly, wheelchair accessible.  The same goes for the Charles W. Morgan, the Star of India, and, for that matter, the U.S.S. North Carolina. 

The people in charge of historic structures are obliged to make a good-faith effort to provide the disabled with some form of "alternative" to access to the parts of the structure that aren't accessible to them.  Some years back, in the museum studies course that I teach, I had a student who was confined in a wheelchair; it was most interesting to see the provisions that various historic sites we visited on field trips made for her.  At Tryon Palace, for instance, a ramp (which was carefully located so the general public didn't see it) gives wheelchair access to the first floor.  The tour guides have a big notebook full of color photos of the other floors; while one guide takes the other visitors in the group upstairs, another shows the photos to the person in the wheelchair.  The U.S.S. North Carolina has a wheelchair ramp that gives access to the main deck - but that's as far as the wheelchair-bound can get.  At Jamestown Settlement, visitors watch a video that shows the interiors of the Susan Constant, Godspeed, and Discovery.  (Anybody who tries to take a wheelchair on board one of those little ships is out of his/her mind.)  And so forth. 

So far, in the twenty years since ADA was passed, that's been satisfactory.  The truth of the matter is that wheelchair-bound visitors to museums and historic sites tend to be extremely reasonable folks, and, in every case I've observed myself, understand the problems of accessibility and appreciate the efforts the sites make on their behalf.

Tryon Palace and the three Jamestown ships present especially complicated cases, because technically they aren't "historic properties."  Tryon Palace is a replica, built in the 1950s on the foundation of the original, 18th-century building; the current Jamestown Ships are only a few years old.  I suppose it's conceivable that, sometime in the future, some judge could rule that they aren't in compliance with ADA.  But that hasn't happened yet - and it doesn't seem likely.

All this, of course, means nothing to the case of the Cutty Sark, because she isn't covered by American law.  But I suspect Great Britain has something quite similar to ADA. 

I have trouble reading the various artists' renditions of what's planned for the drydock, and I'm not sure those pictures are reliable in any case.  (I have the impression that the plans are still very much a work in progress.)  I do know that a big doorway was cut in the ship's side at 'tweendeck level back in the 1950s, when she was put in the drydock.  At least one of the drawings I've seen on the ship's website seems to show the wheelchair ramp leading through that door.  There's been talk of an electric elevator, but it seems to appear in some of the pictures and not in others.  Two additional holes were cut in the hull back in the fifties; I wonder if they're going to be utilized somehow in the new construction.  In other words, it may - may - be that making her "handicapped-accessible" will just entail re-using the openings that are already there.  I certainly hope so. 

I don't think anything in British law requires gutting the ship so wheelchairs can roll around all over her.  (If such a law did exist, what would have to be done to the Tower of London?  Or Hampton Court? Or Windsor Castle?)   I suspect that, in fact, the law would prevent such a thing from happening.  (If Mystic Seaport ever decided to gut the Charles W. Morgan in such a manner, the people from the National Trust for Historic Preservation and the National Register of Historic Places would land on the institution's management like a ton of bricks.  The Morgan is a National Historic Landmark.)

Up until quite recently I was a hundred percent confident that the people running the Cutty Sark restoration were operating in strict accordance with the ethical and professional standards of the preservation/conservation field - and I still think they were.  The recent news stories, and especially the resignation of the engineer in charge of the project, have me worried.  I continue to hope, though, that common sense and professional ethics will win out - and/or that the journalists don't quite have the story straight.

 

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    May 2006
  • From: Chapin, South Carolina
Posted by Shipwreck on Tuesday, November 30, 2010 8:06 AM

Do you want to see what the Cutty Sark may look like?

 

http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/8708789.GREENWICH__Gardens_approved_as_new_image_of_Cutty_Sark_released/

On the Bench:

Revell 1/96 USS Constitution - rigging

Revell 1/48 B-1B Lancer Prep and research

Trumpeter 1/350 USS Hornet CV-8 Prep and research

 

 

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Tuesday, November 30, 2010 9:16 AM

Throughout this project I've been trying hard to stay objective.  I remain convinced that the people responsible for the actual restoration of the ship (at least in the early stages of the project) knew precisely what they were doing, and maintained the highest standards of professionalism.  In recent months I've started to get worried, though.  Stories about the resignation of one of the project's directors, changing "finish dates," ominous rumors about money, and reports of bizarre ideas for what's going to be put underneath the ship in the drydock have all undermined my confidence more than a little.

I'm still trying to be objective, and I keep telling myself to withhold judgment until we can all see for sure what the finished product is really going to look like.  That said, I have to say I think that picture that Shipwreck linked us to is...well, pretty awful.  It looks like the ship is sticking out of the roof of a greenhouse.

On the other hand, maybe things could be worse.  For a while, artists' renderings were floating around that showed the glass sheets of the "greenhouse" arranged in a hokey pattern that was supposed to represent "waves."  (I think that one got such a bad reception from the maritime history community that the Powers That Be dropped it.)

I fully understand the concept of sealing up the space between the hull and the sides of the drydock; from a preservation standpoint that's an excellent idea.  I'm inclined to think the right solution would have been to leave her sitting on the drydock floor, with means for the public to climb down at the bow and stern and look up at her.  (That's the way the system was set up before the current restoration.)  Like may other people, I'm worried about what's going to happen when the ship is lifted up from the drydock floor; as I understand it (and I'm relying on the same, none-too-reliable news reports everybody else is), that was what made one of the senior directors of the project walk off the job.  If they manage to break her in half while they're lifting her, I'll join the chorus that proclaims the people responsible to be incompetent.  If they do manage to get her up in the air, and build the greenhouse around her - well, I'll try to stay objective.  But that's getting harder and harder.

How much more would it have cost to build a separate building somewhere nearby to accommodate all the functions that are to take place inside the drydock - which was never designed or intended for such a purpose?  That's the sort of basic question that, somehow or other, gets shoved aside in expensive, time-consuming projects like this - especially projects that involve several well-intentioned agencies that all have their own agendas and priorities.

I'll withhold my own final opinion - in which, let it be noted, virtually nobody but me is the least bit interested - till I see the finished product.  But it's getting harder and harder to be optimistic.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    March 2005
  • From: West Virginia, USA
Posted by mfsob on Tuesday, November 30, 2010 9:55 AM

Ummm ... that's not an historic ship. That's what happens when Hollyweird gets its hands on a historic ship and trys to turn it into a money machine. My 2 cents

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Lacombe, LA.
Posted by Big Jake on Tuesday, November 30, 2010 10:10 AM

Well I tend to look to the brighter side on Most things, we can complain that what there are doing is ghastly  or happy they even spent the Pounds to restore the ship.  I for one would love the op. to see the ship in any configuration.

 

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Wednesday, December 1, 2010 3:36 AM

Jake makes an excellent point - one that should remain uppermost in any discussion of this subject.  We came mighty close to losing a priceless artifact here.  It's now clear that - unless the people responsible do actually manage to break her in half during the process of lifting her, so she can "fly" inside the glassed-over drydock - the Cutty Sark has in fact survived the biggest threat she has ever experienced.  We probably should concentrate on being happy about that - and it really is something to be happy about.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

MJH
  • Member since
    April 2005
  • From: Melbourne, Australia
Posted by MJH on Wednesday, December 1, 2010 5:50 AM

I, too, concur with Jake's post, better to have a 'compromised' Cutty Sark than none at all and would also like to see more of the plans, especially images, before passing judgement.  Nonetheless I am concerned about this paragraph; "Plans include new seating alongside the clipper, pedestrian access, a water feature which ebbs and flows according to the tides".

I just hope they've budgeted for the ongoing maintenance of the fabric of the ship since she'll still be subject to the vagaries of the English weather.

I was researching the Italian training ship Amerigo Vespucci recently and came across the comment that her teak decks need to be replaced every three years!  Does this sound reasonable?  What about CS's decks?

 

Michael

!

  • Member since
    May 2008
  • From: UK
Posted by Billyboy on Wednesday, December 1, 2010 6:09 PM

You chaps may be interested to see how the SS Great Britain has been presented in her original dry dock. The effect in real life is really quite impressive actually, and allows visitors to effectively study her profile 'in the water' and also to study her (rather fascinating) underwater lines.

In comparison, the Greenwich scheme looks very clumsy and intrusive!

http://www.ssgreatbritain.org/Home.aspx

All that aside, I can't wait to get back on Cutty Sark- it feels like forever since she was last open. I hope some of you chaps 'stateside' get the opportunity to visit her one day.

Will

  • Member since
    May 2008
  • From: UK
Posted by Billyboy on Wednesday, December 1, 2010 6:16 PM

MJH

I just hope they've budgeted for the ongoing maintenance of the fabric of the ship since she'll still be subject to the vagaries of the English weather.

I was researching the Italian training ship Amerigo Vespucci recently and came across the comment that her teak decks need to be replaced every three years!  Does this sound reasonable?  What about CS's decks?

Michael

 The decks of SS Great Britain have been replaced twice since the beginning of her initial restoration in 1970. I would be amazed if an oliy wood like teak needed to be replaced as frequently as 3 years- that wouldn't have been the case on a serving vessel, even with a regular maintenance program. The cost alone.... sheesh!

Most preserved ships have the deck planking backed with some water-tight medium, be that plate steel, plastic, or even concrete. The cosmetic hardwood planks are caulked with a synthetic compound rather than hemp. They stand up well to weather, but on most UK vessels I've visited they look neglected: a dark grey/green. Perhaps we could get the local prison population to do some holystoning as part of their reformation?!

The biggest issue for Cutty Sark in future decades would probably be her iron, her teak woodwork should prevent 'iron rot', but corrosion of platework will be rapid in the UK climate. The key is draining the water out. I think C-S was fitted with a pretty exhaustive system of modern drains to prevent water ingress, and I assume this will be re-fitted upon her restoration.

By way of context, you chaps might find SS Great Britain's most recent condition report an interesting read.

http://www.eura.co.uk/ssgb.pdf

 

Will

  • Member since
    May 2006
  • From: Chapin, South Carolina
Posted by Shipwreck on Friday, April 1, 2011 10:06 AM

This link takes you to an update on the Cutty Sark restoration:

 

http://www.wharf.co.uk/2011/03/cutty-sark-ready-for-her-final.html

On the Bench:

Revell 1/96 USS Constitution - rigging

Revell 1/48 B-1B Lancer Prep and research

Trumpeter 1/350 USS Hornet CV-8 Prep and research

 

 

 

  • Member since
    March 2010
Posted by shoot&scoot on Saturday, April 2, 2011 12:11 AM

Here's the hot link:

http://www.wharf.co.uk/2011/03/cutty-sark-ready-for-her-final.html

Glad to see some good news for a change.

                                                                      Pat.

  • Member since
    March 2005
  • From: West Virginia, USA
Posted by mfsob on Sunday, April 3, 2011 4:53 AM

I'm not so sure these guys really know what they're doing - "We've taken this ship to pieces bolt by bolt, rivet by rivet ..." the Cutty Sark had rivets??? Who knew?

  • Member since
    March 2010
Posted by shoot&scoot on Monday, April 4, 2011 4:19 AM

mfsob

I'm not so sure these guys really know what they're doing - "We've taken this ship to pieces bolt by bolt, rivet by rivet ..." the Cutty Sark had rivets??? Who knew?

Uh, Cutty Sark had a composite hull construction consisting of an iron frame with wooden hull planking and timbers attached to the frame with brass bolts.  The iron frame had thousands of rivets holding it together.

                                                                                                          Pat.

  • Member since
    March 2005
  • From: West Virginia, USA
Posted by mfsob on Monday, April 4, 2011 8:47 AM

You learn something new every day! I stand corrected - at least as far as the ship's construction goes.

  • Member since
    May 2006
  • From: Chapin, South Carolina
Posted by Shipwreck on Sunday, December 11, 2011 6:43 AM

The Cutty Sark should have all her masts in place by today.

 

http://www.london24.com/news/cutty_sark_s_masts_raised_again_four_years_after_fire_1_1150681

On the Bench:

Revell 1/96 USS Constitution - rigging

Revell 1/48 B-1B Lancer Prep and research

Trumpeter 1/350 USS Hornet CV-8 Prep and research

 

 

 

  • Member since
    May 2006
  • From: Chapin, South Carolina
Posted by Shipwreck on Saturday, March 3, 2012 6:43 AM

Anyone planing on going to England anytime soon?

Cutty Sark to reopen on April 26th 

On the Bench:

Revell 1/96 USS Constitution - rigging

Revell 1/48 B-1B Lancer Prep and research

Trumpeter 1/350 USS Hornet CV-8 Prep and research

 

 

 

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