SEARCH FINESCALE.COM

Enter keywords or a search phrase below:

ATTENTION SAILING SHIP MODELERS!

23165 views
67 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    February 2008
  • From: San Bernardino, CA
Posted by enemeink on Thursday, May 29, 2008 1:21 PM
"The race for quality has no finish line, so technically it's more like a death march."
  • Member since
    November 2007
Posted by Woxel59 on Thursday, May 29, 2008 12:45 PM

To Dr. Tilley:

Thank you for the interesting additions and historical background about
Gorch Fock, Eagle and Seeadler. Now I remember, that in my Seeadler kit is
a copy of Graf (Count) Luckners letter to the boyscouts. 
I could not reach the kit at present, because it´s buried in a box amongst
other unbuilt and vintage models in my hobbyroom which my buddies from
the local modelers club call "area 51" because it´s a forbidden area for them...

Did you already check the websites for the "Alexander von Humboldt" model ?
I hope that I could give you good information about the reason why the sails
are green.....

To Bill Morrison: Yes, Passat and the Viking ship have been reissued.
The Viking ship was first issued in the 1980s, as I remember and its an
original Revell product, not an Aurora/Merit/Smer or Heller copy.
Second life was in the middle of the 1990s as a "Glow in the dark" ship, molded in
black and it came with a bottle of fluorescend paint.  Now its´s back in original form.

Revell also two times issued a "Chinese Junk" in the last 20 years. It´s the old
Aurora kit, the tools went via Monogram to Revell. I never have seen another
version of this kit from Monogram or Revell-USA, only the german Revell-version.
Did Revell ever offer this model in the United States ?

   
   

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Thursday, May 29, 2008 10:35 AM
Bill, you're lucky you found them at all.  The Viking ship apparently has been removed from the catalog (again), and I don't think I've ever seen the Passat.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Thursday, May 29, 2008 10:31 AM

I have also attached my letter to Revell of Europe and their response.

 

Dear Mr. Morrison,
thank you very much for your e-mail and your interest in our products.

Your product proposals and comments are collected in our
new-items-proposal-list. Due to the large number of comments and letters we receive,
it is not possible to include all the products proposed.
We do our best to offer a comprehensive range covering various themes.

Nevertheless we thank you very much for your suggestions and we will
include them into our proposal list for the coming years.


Regards,
S. Haller


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: William Morrison [mailto:bmorri6409@sbcglobal.net]
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 28. Mai 2008 20:17
An: Revell Germany

MESSAGE:
Sirs,

I have been a loyal customer of Revell products for over 50 years. I
build ship models and love sailing ships. Thank you very much for those
new ships in your 2008 catalog. We builders appreciate your efforts.

However, we sailing ship builders are concerned about the lack of new
products to suit our interests. Until your new catalog, few plastic
sailing ship model kits have been released in the past thirty years. Those
that have been released are usually simply re-releases of older kits
that have little accuracy.

Therefore, I would like to recommend a new product line of plastic
sailing ships in either/both 1/96 and 1/150 scale. New ships could include
HMS Vanguard (Nelson's flagship at the Battle of the Nile), L'Ocean
(Admiral Bruey's flagship at the same battle), HMS Bellerophon (the ship
to which Napoleon surrendered), HMS Queen Charlotte (Rodney's flagship),
Santissima Trinidad (the largest ship to fight at Trafalgar) and HMS
Shannon (the British frigate that defeated USS Chesapeake). The list of
possibilities is endless.

Companies such as Trumpeter and Dragon have revived interest in ship
modelling by virtue of their excellent new ship models of exceptionally
high quality. This effort has proven profitable for them. I believe such
an effort would be equally profitable for Revell.

Thank you for your consideration.

 

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Thursday, May 29, 2008 10:23 AM

Well, I did my duty to the hobby yesterday . . . I found and bought two of the new Revell sailing ships (Passat and the Viking Ship). I feel lucky that I found them in one place!

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Thursday, May 29, 2008 10:05 AM

I can shed a little more light on the Eagle/Gorch Fock/Seeadler connection.  It's a rather interesting story.

Back in 1956 (at least I think that's the date of the first edition) the famous sailing ship writer and draftsman Harold A. Underhill published a book called Sail Training and Cadet Ships.  Like Underhill's other books, it was illustrated with a series of well-drawn, fold-out plans.  Among the ships covered was, of course, the class of German training barques that included the Gorch Fock and Horst Wessel (later U.S.C.G.C. Eagle).  The text of the book included a discussion of the similarities and differences between the ships of the class - including the fact that all of them were different in length.  The accompanying fold-out plans were of the Gorch Fock - as Underhill clearly stated in the text.  (He explained repeatedly that the four ships in the class were near-identical except for length - and provided a table with the accurate dimensions.)

Underhill's publishers, Brown, Son and Ferguson, sold blueprint versions of most of his ship plans separately, and published a widely-distributed catalog of them.  This particular set of drawings was listed in the catalog as representing all four ships in the class.  A person who bought a copy of the drawings and didn't have a copy of the book wouldn't know that the plans weren't accurate depictions of all four. 

I think it's worth noting that Underhill himself never tried to deceive anybody on this point.  (Neither, so far as I know, did the U.S. Coast Guard.)

Virtually every model kit, plastic or wood, allegedly representing the Eagle seems to have been based on those Underhill plans.  That, I'm pretty sure, includes the Revell kit, which originally appeared in 1958.  By then the real Eagle had been modified considerably from her original configuration.  (The characteristically German double spanker rig on the mizzen mast had, for instance, been replaced by a single gaff.  In the ship's latest major overhaul, back in about 1990, the Coast Guard restored the double spanker.)  I think the Revell designers took a careful look at the actual ship and, in effect, superimposed the various pieces of 1950s-vintage Coast Guard equipment on the Underhill plans, thereby producing a kit that looked quite a bit like the Eagle did in 1958 - but was about 20 scale feet too short.  (I haven't compared the original Horst Wessel drawings directly with the Underhill ones, but I think most, if not all, of the difference in length falls between the big forward deckhouse and the main mast.)

We discussed this topic at some length here in the Forum a couple of years ago.  I think we pretty firmly established that all other Eagle kits are also too short - with one notable exception:  the 1/200 version from Imai.  A Forum member who'd sailed on board the Eagle got hold of that kit and compared it with some reliable drawings (they're out there, all right); he reports that it's an excellent, well-detailed kit, though it was only available quite briefly and is now extremely hard to find.

Imai also included the Eagle (along with the other three class members) in its series of nice little 1/350 kits.  I'm pretty sure all of the four had identical hulls, decks, etc.  (I suspect Imai also used most of the same parts for its 1/350 model of the Gorch Fock II, which is in fact quite similar to her predecessor - but not identical.)

Quite a few years later I got hired by the Coast Guard Historian's Office to do a line drawing of the Eagle in her then-current configuration.  The Coast Guard Historian, Dr. Bob Browning, had in his office several of the original Blohm & Voss builder's drawings of the ship.  (The drawings had the name "Horst Wessel" on them; there's not much doubt about their reliability.  It wasn't a full set of drawings by any stretch of the imagination, but it did include a lines plan and longitudinal cross-section.)  He also sent me copies of several more recent drawings made by Coast Guard draftsmen on the basis of measurements taken directly from the ship.  Again, I think it's worth noting that the Coast Guard has never tried to deceive anybody about the Eagle's dimensions.  I caught up with the ship (not without considerable difficulty) at Baltimore and spent quite a bit of time walking around her, taking pictures, and talking with the captain and the bosun; I think I can claim that the drawing I made accurately represents her configuration as of 1994.

A year or so ago I bought a biography of Count von Luckner that had just been published.  It contained a certain amount of slightly sensationalistic material, but seemed to be generally reliable.  Long after World War I the Count spent considerable time in the United States, devoting much effort to charitable causes - including the Boy Scouts of America.  (He seems to have been a first-rate gentleman in every respect.)  The book tells the story that, in about 1959, he was the guest of honor on the American TV show "This Is Your Life."  Olde Phogies like me may remember that show.  Every week it presented the biography of a different celebrity, who got surprised when people from his/her past showed up in the TV studio.  In this case the last "surprise guest" on the show was an executive from Revell, who announced that the company was about to release a model of the Seeadler - and donate a portion of the proceeds to the Boy Scouts.

The kit was released in 1960 (and, according to Dr. Graham's book, reissued in 1968 with vac-formed "sails" added).  I remember buying it about that time - and discovering, immediately upon opening the box, that it was a modified version of the Eagle kit.  (Yards had been added to the mizzen mast, the Coast Guard motorboats had been replaced with some other, older looking ones, a couple of guns had replaced the navigation lights on the forecastle, and I imagine a few other changes had been made.  But the hull, decks, and most other parts were identical.)  The instruction sheet included a message from Count von Luckner "To the youth of America," emphasizing that "the Seeadler never robbed a wife of her husband or a mother of her child" (which was true). 

I've often wondered when, if ever, the Count learned what was really inside that box. 

For many years Revell's alleged Seeadler was just about the only plastic model of a World War I warship on the market.  There still aren't many - and that's a most regrettable state of affairs.  But I have to say this is one I hope doesn't get reissued.  As an exercise in deceptive marketing it's on almost the same level as the Revell "Beagle."

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    November 2007
Posted by Woxel59 on Thursday, May 29, 2008 7:29 AM

As an addition to my report about shipmodels from Revell of Germany,
I had discovered another case of "model box engineering" (selling the same
kit under different names): The at present unavailable kit of the german
WW I sailing ship "SMS Seeadler" (Sea Eagle), from famous captain Felix Graf
Luckner, also was issued in the 1960s, and different times again, from Revell.
The scale stated on the box was 1:232.  Indeed its the same kit as "Gorch Fock",
with minmal modifications. "Gorch Fock" scale was stated as 1:253. This is clearly
a box-scale, regarding the age of the kit. The real "Seeadler" also was a 3 mast ship,
but had a different length in comparison to "Gorch Fock" so Revell probably stated
the different scale. The real ships had nothing in common, except the 3 masts, because
"Seeadler" was built in 1888 in Glasgow, Scotland. It was captured as "Pass of
Balmaha"  by a german submarine and sent to Germany. An engine was added and it
was reconstructed as an auxiliary cruiser. The vessel had some succes but was finally
lost in the south pacific at the island of Mopelia. It had struck a reef caused by an
anchoring error. (Graf Luckner hat later stated, the the vesel was thrown on the reef
by a tsunami, to protect his crew from punishment). I luckyly have a (started)
kit of "Seeadler" (an early Revell "Authentic kit") in my collection.    
Maybe this one will reappear one day too ? 

As an addition to the 1:350 scale Gorck Fock(ex IMAI), Revell of Germany also
offered the 1:350 scale "Cutty Sark" and "Amerigo Vespucci" in the same line,
these ships are well known in Germany too. I guess, the tools were leased,
because the old IMAI 1:350 scale ships mostly are offered by MINICRAFT now.
No idea whether they own the tools or just let produce models in China or
Korea under their name..... Does anybody have more information ?     

  • Member since
    November 2007
Posted by Woxel59 on Thursday, May 29, 2008 6:38 AM

Relating to Dr. Tilley´s interesting article about Revell of Germany,
I can confirm his statements. Most of the models are reissues, sometimes modified.
"Gorch Fock" is indeed a modified "Eagle". In the 1930s there were 3 training sailing
vessels built for the Kriegsmarine: Gorck Fock 1 (which after WW II became the russian
"Tovarishtsch"), "Horst Wessel" (after WW II US Coast Guard "Eagle" which probably
was the prototype for Revell´s model) and "Albert Leo Schlageter"  which, after a
period as brazilian ship after WW II eventuelly became portuguese "Sagres" around 1960.
Gorch Fock 1 was a little bit shorter than "Horst Wessel" /"Eagle" and "Albert Leo Schlageter"/
"Sagres".  A similar ship was built for Romania , the "Mircea". So "Eagle" and "Sagres"
were based on the plans of "Gorch Fock 1", the hull was lengthened. "Gorch Fock 2",
the current ship for the German Bundesmarine, was built on plans based on "Eagle"/"Sagres".
Thats why Revell uses the same hull for both ship models, I only found out slight differences
on the upper deck structures.  I hope, these informations aren´t confusing.

Now to "Alexander von Humboldt".  This is a german made Revell kit. It appeared first
at the end of the 1980s. The ship is a training sailing vessel, which was rebuilt in
1986/1987 from a former fire ship into a three masted bark. The fire ship originally was built
in 1906 as "Reserve Sonderburg", it was planned as a reserve fireship, when one of the
main fireships at Germanys coast had to be repaired. So it remained under different tasks
until September 1986, when it was rammed by Liberian motorship "Ocean Wind" and damaged.
Afterwards it was bought by a foundation "Deutsche Stiftung Sail Training", to rebuilt
it as a training vessel for young people. The hull was painted green to give a memory
to the sailing ships of the german shipping company "Rickmers". The reason why the sails
are green to is simple:(Dr. Tilley was wondering why....)
One of the founders of the training ship foundation is the big german brewery BECKS (also famous in the USA, I guess). The had made a contract for using the ship for advertising
over a long period. As the BECKS beer bottles are green, so the sails became green too.
When the advertising contract ran out, the sails were left green, because of the ship´s
special appearance. I have read, that the ship will be replace in 2009 or 2010 by a newer
ship. The training ship foundation has an own (german) website:
           www.gruene-segel.de
(That means "green sails" in english).  Another german modellers homepage, where pictures
of a nicely built "Alexander von Humbold" can be found is:  www.modellversium.de

Then you have to click "Galerie" (gallery) and then you can search for the model.

I hope these informations from Germany helped to clearify some questions in this case.

Greetings to all!  Axel Wolters  a.k.a  woxel59  

 

 

  

 

 

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 12:17 PM

I have enclosed my response to Mr. Lodge of Airfix.

Bill Morrison

 

Mr. Mark Lodge
Airfix Customer Care

Dear Mr. Lodge,

Thank you for your response to my email. As you are aware, whenever a consumer hears the phrase "We'll pass your request on to  . . .", we expect that our request will be deposited in the circular file. In fact, many of my peers have advised me not to bother with my requests to Airfix because it is a lost cause. Your response gave me some hope.

I would like to specify which ships that I would like to see Airfix manufacture. Unfortunately, Airfix does not manufacture sailing ships to any standard scale; they range from 1/72, 1/144, 1/150, 1/180, and 1/200.  I would like to see Airfix begin a 1/96 or 1/100 line and, perhaps, 1/150.  The ships I would personally like to see include HMS Vanguard (Nelson's flagship at the Battle of the Nile), L'Ocean (Bruey's flagship at the same battle), HMS Elephant (Nelson's flagship at Copenhagen), HMS Amazon (Captain Riou's frigate at Copenhagen), HMS Shannon (the frigate that defeated USS Chesapeake), and Bucentaure(Villeneuve's flagship at Trafalgar).  I would also like to see HMS Bellerophon, the ship to which Napoleon surrendered, and HMS Queen Charlotte (Rodney's flagship). Others have mentioned the Santissima Trinidad, the largest ship that fought at Trafalgar.

Again, thank you for your consideration. I appreciate that any new model kit involves a significant outlay of funds, but I believe that it is in the best interests of Airfix to do so.  Other model companies have proven this, such as Trumpeter and Dragon.

I look forward to hearing from you again concerning these recommendations.

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    February 2008
  • From: San Bernardino, CA
Posted by enemeink on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 10:51 AM
I totally agree with you. I was going to give them specific examples of ships that I would like to see added to thier lines.
"The race for quality has no finish line, so technically it's more like a death march."
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 10:48 AM

I just took a careful look at the Revell Europe website.  (The company seems to be calling itself "Revell Europe," rather than "Revell Germany," these days.  Whether that implies any genuine change in the firm's corporate structure I have no idea.)  It's a nice, well-organized website; I particularly like the availability of instruction sheets (some of them, at least) for downloading.  The "online catalog" is conveniently broken down into categories, including one for sailing ships.

The list of sailing ships includes thirteen kits.  Most of them are pretty easy to identify.

1.  Santa Maria.  I'm pretty sure this is the grand old U.S. Revell kit from 1957.  I haven't seen it in many years but, given how little is known about the prototype, I suspect it can still be regarded as a reasonable reconstruction.  It certainly has the potential to produce a nice model.

2.  "H.M.S. Beagle."  Some subjects are best not discussed.  We've covered this one amply elsewhere in the Forum.

3.  Hansa Kogge.  As I understand it, this is a reboxing of the recent Zvezda kit.  I haven't seen it, but on the basis of web coverage I have the impression that it's a nice kit - and a first-rate "starter kit" for people just breaking into the sailing ship genre.  I believe the Revell version is a good bit cheaper than the Zvezda one in some markets.

4.  Gorch Fock, allegedly on 1/253 scale.  (I say "allegedly" because Revell Germany/Europe is notorious for screwing up scale designations.)  I'm not absolutely sure, but I think this is a slightly modified reissue of the old Revell U.S. Coast Guard training bark Eagle, from 1958.  If I'm right, it would actually be a good starting point for a scale model of the first Gorch Fock - the one built in the 1930s and seized by the Soviets after WWII as war reparations.  As we've discussed elsewhere in the Forum, the old Revell kit appears to have been based on Harold Underhill's plans for that class of German cadet ships, and is about 20 scale feet short for the Eagle - but (I think) right for the Gorch Fock.  The serious modeler would need to remove a considerable amount of 1950s-vintage USCG equipment, most conspicuously the big motor boats.

5.  "Ghost Ship With Night Color."  The photo makes it obvious that this is the old U.S. Revell "Walt Disney's Peter Pan Pirate Ship," from 1960.  It's a reasonably accurate and well-detailed replica of the amusement park prop that used to be at Disneyland in California; that...object, in turn, was based on the work of the Disney animators in the 1953 movie "Peter Pan."  It bore virtually no resemblance to any actual vessel that ever floated, and neither does the kit.  Revell U.S. is currently selling it under the label "Caribbean Pirate Ship."  (Note the meticulous avoidance of the phrase "Pirates of the Caribbean."  Apparently Revell didn't pay a licensing fee to Disney.)

6.  U.S.S. Constitution.  Obviously the 1/96-scale kit from 1965, surely one of the ten or twelve best plastic sailing ship kits ever.  Thank goodness it's still available in this form; Revell U.S. has dropped it.  The German version appears to be the only one of the big, 3-foot-long Revell sailing ship kits currently on the market.

7.  Gorch Fock (1/350 scale).  I think this is a reissue of an Imai kit - one of the big series of 1/350 sail training ship kits that company released in conjunction with the big "tall ships" festivities in 1976.  Those kits were waterline models, but Imai later released modified, full-hull versions of several of them; I think this is one of them.  Given their tiny size, they were nice kits.

8.  Passat.  I've never seen this one in the flesh; I think it may be a genuine original Revell Germany product.  (Heller made a model of this ship, but it was bigger - 1/150, I think.)  I couldn't get the website photos of the model to come up on my computer, but I was able to look at the instructions.  They're quite impressive.  Given the small scale (1/250), it looks like the designers did a creditable job of reproducing a highly complex subject.  And the rigging diagrams are remarkable.  They simplify the rigging of the real thing, of course, but they do so intelligently and rationally.  I think I want this kit.

9.  H.M.S. Victory.  Obviously the old U.S. Revell kit from 1959.  Given its age, the limitations of the medium, and the small scale, it's an excellent kit and a good basis for a scale model - for those who can handle its miniscule size.

10.  Alexander von Humboldt.  I haven't seen this one either - and the website doesn't offer a photo of it or the instructions.  I believe it's an original Revell Germany product from the 1980s, but I'm not absolutely sure.  I don't have any grounds for comment on it - beyond the fact that those bright green sails certainly are...unusual.

11.  H.M.S. Bounty.  Obviously the old U.S. Revell kit from 1956.  I'm considerably more familiar with this one than I'd like to be:  http://www.hmsvictoryscalemodels.be/JohnTilleyBounty/index.html .  For its day it was a superb kit.  It obviously doesn't represent the current state of the art, but in many respects it's superior to the much more recent Airfix version.

12.  Cutty Sark.  I'm pretty certain this is the "medium sized" version originally released in 1976.  I think it may have originated with Revell of Great Britain (which has long since ceased to exist), but I'm not sure.  Dr. Graham's book - for which I have the deepest possible respect - contains a rare error regarding this kit:  the book asserts that it's a modified version of the Revell Stag Hound.  It isn't.  It's a reasonably accurate, though much simplified, rendition of the Cutty Sark.  (For a while Revell was selling three versions of that ship:  this one, the grand old 1/96 kit, and a reissue of the little 1/350 Imai one.  The latter two, unfortunately, seem to be gone for the moment.  I'd especially like to see the big one come back.  There are some plastic kits that should always be available.) 

13.  U.S.S. United States.  The description of this one ("one-piece hull") makes it obvious that it's a reissue of the Monogram kit from the late seventies.  It was part of Monogram's brief effort to entice newcomers into the hobby by offering "simplified" sailing ship kits.  It does indeed have a one-piece hull, yards molded integrally with the masts, and various other contrivances designed to make it buildable in a few evenings.  As such it's a rather interesting piece of ingenious engineering, but probably not of much interest to serious scale modelers.  (And it doesn't have the raised quarterdeck that the real ship did.)

That's not much of a repertory, but it certainly surpasses, in both numbers and quality, the two (count 'em - two) sailing ship kits currently on the U.S. Revell list:  The 1956-vintage 1/192 Constitution and the aforementioned "Caribbean Pirate Ship."

I've never had any contact with any of the people who work for Revell Europe.  My impression is that the company does have a genuine interest in the serious, adult scale modeler.  (The recent U-boat kits, and the forthcoming 1/144 Fletcher-class destroyer, certainly confirm that - along with a number of other modern ships and quite a few downright outstanding aircraft.)  Unfortunately the management's expertise doesn't seem to extend far into the realm of the sailing vessel.  The web descriptions of some (not all) of those kits can most gently be described as stupid.  The scales of several of them are garbled, and several of the the lists of "features" ("structurally detailed deck," "one-piece rigging," etc.) seem to have been written by somebody who knew virtually nothing about ships or ship models.  I wonder whether the people who decided to reissue that infernal "Beagle" actually had any idea of how little the contents of the box resembled the real ship.

Model companies are run by human beings.  The people running this one give the impression, elsewhere in its product range, that they understand scale modeling and genuinely care about the knowledgeable consumer.  Maybe - maybe - if they were educated a little bit as to what sailing ship modeling is about, they could be pursuaded to take the same interest in that genre that they obviously do in aircraft, tanks, modern ships, etc.  We can at least hope.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 10:40 AM

Enemeink,

I agree and already have done so.  I am trying to make this a concerted effort by asking all other sailing ship modellers do the same. I believe that one person doing so will be ignored; more voices acting individually can also be ignored. But, if we act together, it can be highly effective in achieving our aims . . . more and better plastic sailing ship model kits.

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    February 2008
  • From: San Bernardino, CA
Posted by enemeink on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 10:34 AM
maybe we should give them specific samples of what models you would like to see.
"The race for quality has no finish line, so technically it's more like a death march."
  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 10:13 AM

Just to keep everyone informed, here is a copy of my latest communication with Hornby Hobbies and their response.

 

Greetings once again!

I would like to continue my petition to have your company, as the owners of Airfix, begin producing more plastic scale models of sailing ships, particularly of the Napoleonic Era. If you are doing your market research by reading the many postings on modeling websites such as Fine Scale Modeler, you would see that there is significant interest in this proposal.

Sailing ship enthusiasts are dismayed at their treatment by the plastic modeling manufacturers, who haven't released a truly new plastic sailing ship model in close to thirty years. We have loyally built and rebuilt all that companies such as Airfix have to offer. Yet, our interests are ignored.

Please consider our plight . . . we need more products. Read the many threads on the FSM website. Contact the many of us who are posting comments about what we would like to see. And, act on our recommendations! We implore you!

 

Dear Mr Morrison

Thank you for your email, I have passed it on to the relevant departments and in addition we do keep a record of all product requests, which we take into consideration when planning future ranges.

Yours Sincerely

Mark Lodge

Airfix Customer Care

  • Member since
    September 2015
  • From: The Redwood Empire
Posted by Aaronw on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 10:12 PM
jtilly, thanks for the info on the kits. I'll be adding the gun boat to my to get list. I'll have a look for the plastic but I do like working with wood and don't get many chances to. This might be a chance to do something really different from my normal builds and could make a nice winter project when the weather shuts down most of my painting.
  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 12:07 PM

Then by all means let's lobby Revell of Germany as well! I don't want to buy their HMS Beagle (sic: HMS Bounty) to prove that I want new sailing ships. Again, we have each bought, rebought, and bought again every sailing ship offering that has been released, rereleased, and rerereleased. We need to make the manufacturers aware of what we want through the collective power of our voices and our letters. Keep sending the letters . . . eventually one may make it to the right people rather than reach the proverbial circular file. (Yes, I teach "Rabble-rousing" 101 in my government and U.S. History classes!)

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 9:09 AM

We've mentioned the two Zvezda cog kits several times here in the Forum.  I haven't bought one yet, but they have a good reputation.  One Forum member, jwintjes, a European historian who knows far more about this period than I do, commented that the layout of the kits' deck planks isn't consistent with the surviving evidence; the surviving cogs have planks that run athwartships, whereas those of the kits run fore-and-aft.  Jwintjes was quick to emphasize, though, that the cog was an extremely ubiquitous ship type, and it's entirely possible that not all cogs were planked the same way.

In addition to the Russian kits Woxel59 mentioned, our good Forum friend Kapudan Emir Effendi has brought our attention to a newly-established Russian firm called Flagman.  It's announced several forthcoming sailing ship kits.  It's obviously too early to tell what they'll look like, but there's reason for optimism.  The company's 1/350 German WWII U-boat got a very favorable review on the Steel Navy website.

Those "Revell Classic" reissues are indeed of enormous interest.  Both the American and European branches of the company have done things like that. Back in the 1980s Revell Monogram had a big "Special Subjects" program of reissued kits that people like me gobbled up; several of them are still awaiting my attention in my attic.  That range, unfortunately, did not include a single sailing ship kit.  Neither does the latest batch of "Revell Classics":  http://www.revell.de/en/products/model_kits/services/info_channel/revell_classics/?id=821&L=1 , though the "regular" catalog of Revell Germany does include some old Revell sailing ships (including that infernal "Beagle," and a Gorch Fock that I'm pretty certain is a reissue of the old U.S.C.G.C. Eagle from 1958).  Let's hope for more.  I sure would like to see the return of the Flying Cloud, Golden Hind, Mayflower, and Charles W. Morgan.

Aaronw - I'm afraid I can't think of a single kit representing a ship similar to the Balclutha (i.e., a late-nineteenth- or early-twentient-century, iron- or steel-hulled sailing merchant vessel).  Heller used to make several big German stell merchant sailing vessels, but those kits have been off the market for many years.  I guess the closest things currently on the market are the two versions of the German training barque Gorch Fock (one formerly Imai, the other a reboxing of the old Revell Eagle) currently in the Revell Europe catalog.  For that matter, the Revell Passat (which I haven't seen in the flesh), or any of the old Imai 1/350 sail training ships (several of which are still available under the Academy label) might fill the bill.  Or have you thought about any of the Cutty Sark kits?  The Cutty Sark has a composite-built hull (wood planks on an iron frame), but in terms of rigging and overall appearance she and the Balclutha have quite a bit in common.  (I honestly can't recommend the Cutty Sark as a first project for newcomers to the hobby, though.)

I can offer some comments on the Model Shipways Harriet Lane.  The vessel herself was a beautiful, interesting, and important ship - the first successful steam cutter operated by the old U.S. Revenue Cutter Service (one of the predecessors of the modern Coast Guard).  Her designer and builder was William Webb, a major figure in the American clipper ship era.  Model Shipways originally issued its solid-hull Harriet Lane kit back in the late 1940s.  It's been revised several times since then, and the firm's new owners, Model Expo, recently revived it once again (  http://www.modelexpo-online.com/cgi-bin/sgsh0101.exe?SKW=MODEL_SHIPWAYS,PLANK,ON,BULKHEAD@&FNM=08&UID=2008052710082732 ; scroll down to the picture of the Harriet Lane and click on it.)

It's a fairly typical solid-hull wood kit - and better than most.  The "machine-carved" basswood hull requires some final shaping, the bulwarks need to be thinned down to scale dimensions with a chisel and/or gouge, and the holes for the masts need to be drilled.  Most of the fittings are cast in britannia metal, an excellent material that resembles lead but is far more stable.  The spars are tapered birch dowels; the instructions show how to bring them to final shape.  (Model Shipways instruction books these days are among the best in the business - and Model Expo is generous enough to provide downloadable versions on its website.  Downloading and studying that instruction book would be an excellent way to get acquainted with the kit in advance.)  The kit includes self-adhesive copper foil tape for the copper sheathing.  I've worked with that material; it's nice stuff, and gives a very satisfactory result.  I suspect the tape included with the kit is too wide (I think it's produced by a company that makes supplies for stained-glass window makers), but slicing it down to the scale width isn't difficult.

The one criticism of this version of the kit that I can offer (on the basis of the ad and the instruction book; I haven't built it) is that the stated scale is wrong.  It should be 1/144, or 1/12"=1'. 

This kit was one of those that, way back in the early fifties, got "pirated" by the plastic kit company Pyro.  (The two owners of the original Model Shipways company called it "Pirate Plastics.")  The contrast between the original wood kit and the Pyro plastic version offers an interesting demonstration of the differences between the two media.  Both are on the same scale.  The plastic kit's bulwarks obviously don't need thinning - and the plastic hull is already formed to its finished shape.  The paddlewheel boxes in the wood kit consist of solid blocks of basswood, the protruding portions of the paddlewheels themselves being represented by britannia castings that are to be glued onto the bottoms of the blocks.  (You can see them in the photo of the kit components in the ad.)  In the plastic kit, the boxes are hollow and the wheels are complete, rotating on a connecting shaft.  (I think the kit may have been available with an electric motor in it for a while - though I've never seen an example in that form.)  But the plastic hull below the waterline is smooth; Pyro made no attempt to represent the copper sheathing.  (I imagine that self-adhesive copper foil tape would work nicely on it.)  One could get into an endless philosophical discussion about which of these kits is "better." The bottom line is that either of them is capable of producing a first-rate scale model.  To get either of them into that condition would take a good deal of time and effort; the wood kit would take more.

Pyro later reissued the plastic kit under the label "Civil War Blockade Runner."  (Ok, the real Harriet Lane was captured by the Confederates and did run the blockade.  But the kit represents her in her Revenue Cutter configuration - complete with guns.)  With that title it also appeared in Life-Like and Lindberg boxes; I'm pretty sure I've seen the Lindberg "Blockade Runner" in hobby shops fairly recently.  Lindberg recently had a change of ownership, and the new owners are bringing back quite a few old Lindberg kits that haven't been seen in many years:  http://www.lindberg-models.com/ .  Unfortunately this kit isn't on the list.  Maybe we'll see it again.  In the mean time, I suspect it can be found in hobby shops, and on the web.  I do hope it comes back; it's one of the few plastic sailing ship kits I can honestly recommend as good first projects for newcomers to the hobby.  With its brigantine rig it offers a good introduction to rigging, without a great deal of repetition - and a model built from either of those kits can be a thing of great beauty as well as historical interest.

Hope that helps a little.  Good luck.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    November 2007
Posted by Woxel59 on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 6:16 AM

Its a good idea to contact the manufacturers and making proposals for new kits.
But sometimes I fear, that the response: .... "we have forwarded your proposals to
our special departments..." also could mean: We have thrown it in the waste paper basket.

About Revell of Germany I can tell you good news in this case: They have a very big ear
for customers proposals. They strongly substitute modelers clubs when they plan modelshows.
And at bigger events guys of the development department are present and they talk with
modelers about their proposals and wishes. So they just launched a new "Classics" series
in Germany with limited reiusses of old kits, and if possible, with the old boxart.    

There ARE new sailing ship kits: Zvezda had released a "Hanse Kogge" two years ago
and now it was taken over in the product line of Revell of Germany (which makes
the kit cheaper...). Its a typical merchant ship from northern Germany, from
around the 14th century.  And Trumpeter had released a big kit from a chinese war junk
as well.

A pair of rarely seen russian sailing ships have been reissued by ALANGER : The "Orel"
and "Goto Predestinacija". They can be compared with older Pyro ships, the main
flaw are the very thick ratlines made from soft plastic. Formerly these models were
produced by a russian company named OGONEK in the 1980s and they were rarely seen.

AOSHIMA of Japan has issued a series of formerly IMAI sailing ships in larger scale,
but they are very expensive unfortunately.....
These models had great detail and were finely engraved. We hope to see more coming back.

If we could make our beautyful hobby more interesting and attractive for the youngsters, we could save our hobby from fading and encourage the manufacturers to invest in new tools.
In my modellers club there are only two members younger than 30 years....... 

         

  • Member since
    September 2015
  • From: The Redwood Empire
Posted by Aaronw on Monday, May 26, 2008 11:22 PM

I had a look at that Model Expo site you mentioned, at first not so bad, lots of kits in the low to mid $100 range as I expected. Then I started seeing the larger ships, Yikes. Ok, I can see the point relating to price, I looked on ebay and found a number of the 1/96 USS Constitution around $50-60, the wood 1/93 USS Constitution nearly $500. I remembered the Revell kit being closer to $100 when I used to see it in the LHS and would have guessed $250-300 for a good wood version. I also see the issue with scale, I would have expected the wood ship models would have been a bit more uniform in this regard but that appears not to be the case. They seem to have as little regard for scale as the plastic model industry outside of the larger 20th century war ships.

jgonzoles / jtilly thank you for your replies. As I said I have a passing interest in ship models but really don't know all that much about them, obviosly even less than I thought. I read discussions here bemoaning the errors in many of the kits available (probably quite justified based on the age of the kits). I like the 1-1 sailing ships when I've had the chance to see them, and having grown up across the bay from the SF maritime museum, I had a chance to go onboard several as a child and I guess they stuck with me.

I wish you luck with your quest to find a kit maker with the interest in reviving the plastic sailing ship kit. The more of these threads I read the more I want to build a sailing ship.

 

Since I have you here I was rather taken with the Model Shipways Harriot Lane civil war gun boat kit, any comments on the kit?

I'd also be interested to know if there is a kit of or at least resembling the Balclutha? That ship is probably responsible for my interest in sailing ships, it made quite an impression on me as a child.  

http://www.nps.gov/safr/historyculture/balclutha.htm

 

Thanks

 

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Monday, May 26, 2008 5:32 PM

Just to follow up . . . I just sent my third email to Hornby Hobbies, directing their market research people to the FSM website. I intend to lobby them persistently to help resolve our collective dilemma. I invite any and all to follow suit. The more the merrier!

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: vernon hills illinois
Posted by sumpter250 on Monday, May 26, 2008 10:21 AM

If...................and they probably never will be.......they were smart, they would start a standard scale in a scale that would have a chance of succeding. I see models in so many scales, none compatible with the other. Aircraft in 1/48, 1/72, 1/144. Ships in 1/350, 1/700, 1/96. Cars in 1/24, 1/25, 1/50, 1/43. Trains in 1/220, 1/160, 1/87, 1/64, 1/48. I would be able to see much wider sales if  these things were a little more "related". Being a model railroader, it would be nice to see cars, aircraft, sailing ships, in the railraod scales. !/87, and 1/96 are close, but would be much better if they were the same. There aren't a lot of 1/87 ship kits! A steam era railroad just might serve a port where sailing vessels would commonly dock. Sailing ship kits in 1/87, and 1/160, and even 1/220, would serve two markets, the model railroaders, and the model ship builders. Builders of dioramas would also benefit from model kits in compatible scales.

Just a thought. 

Lead me not into temptation ..................I can find it myself

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Monday, May 26, 2008 3:58 AM

Aaronw brings up a number of interesting points, some of which I agree with.  [Later edit:  so does jgonzales, who apparently was typing his reponse at the same time I was typing this one.  Very nice to see you in the Forum again, Mr. Gonzales!]  Several others are, I think, very much worthy of discussion.

To begin with, some people contend that the only "legitimate" way to build a model is from scratch.  I respect that view, but I don't happen to hold it myself.  I think kits and manufactured parts have a valuable role to play in modeling.  If we acknowledge that premise, the next question is what material is best for reproducing an object in kit form. 

The notion that "wood is the best material to represent wood" is reasonable - up to a point.  Serious scale ship modelers learn quickly that most commonly available woods don't do a particularly good job of representing wood in miniature, because the grain doesn't get reduced to scale.  (The HECEPOB companies, for instance, are fond of mahogany.  The grain of a typical piece of mahogany is such that a 1/100-scale sailor would trip over it.)  Basswood has a reasonably fine grain that works pretty well as a small-scale reproduction of wood, but it has other drawbacks.  Experienced scratchbuilders find themselves gravitating toward woods like box, pear, and holly, which are too expensive for the model companies to use.  Some of the plastic kit manufacturers' efforts at reproducing wood grain have, admittedly, been pretty funny.  But styrene parts, if designed by people who really know what they're doing, and painted by modelers who know what they're doing (remember that many wood parts of a real ship are painted), actually can do at least as good a job of representing wood to scale as almost any wood can - for a lower price and with considerably less effort on the part of the modeler. 

People who are new to sailing ships aren't aware, I'm afraid, of just how complex the construction of a real wood ship's hull is.  Reproducing it in the form of a single block of wood is, if anything, less realistic than reproducing it in plastic.  The vast majority of "plank-on-frame" wood kits (all but a few of which are better described as "plank-on-bulkhead") only offer an approximation of the appearance of a real ship's planking.  The plastic kit manufacturers, if they know what they're doing (that's a mighty big "if"), can actually do a better job of reproducing that appearance than most of the wood kit manufacturers even attempt. 

Example:  the various H.M.S. Victory kits.  The Model Expo catalog contains at least half a dozen versions by continental European manufacturers.  I haven't looked at all of them personally, but I'll stick my neck out and assert that, the advertisements not withstanding, none of those kits makes a serious attempt at reproducing the ship's hull planking accurately.  (One of them, the supposedly 1/90-scale version from Mamoli, claims to be "so accurately detailed that your model will have the same number of hull timbers as the original."  That's an outright, bald-faced lie.)  The real ship's main wales (the belts of extra-thick planking surrounding the hull near the waterline) were originally planked in the "anchor-stock" pattern, each plank being five-sided.  None of those continental wood kits reproduces the anchor-stock planking.  (Nowadays, neither does the real ship.  At some time or other the planking of her wales got replaced by cheaper, four-sided boards.  Money, unfortunately, plays a big role in historic ship preservation.)  I haven't seen the excellent Calder/Jotika 1/72 Victory (which, in the U.S., costs more than $1,000), but on the basis of photos and reviews I'm pretty sure it doesn't have anchor-stock wale planking either.  Now take a close look at the 1/100 Heller plastic kit.  The countersunk lines between the planks may be a bit too wide and too deep, but they show every detail of the planking - including the anchor-stock-planked wales - correctly.  Planking the hull of a ship-of-the-line on 1/100 scale to that standard would take a real expert, with a good deal of experience, a great deal of time.  The plastic kit offers the average modeler the opportunity to build a Victory with accurate hull planks (to say nothing of the copper sheathing below the waterline) in a reasonable amount of time. 

Many of the components of a wood ship are, of course, not made of wood - and it's those parts that, in some cases at least, lend themselves particularly well to reproduction in styrene.  Others don't.  Plastic is a wretched material for pieces like belaying pins, hammock netting stanchions, and eyebolts.  But it's an excellent material for modeling such things as gun barrels, windlasses, and various rigging fittings and pieces of deck furniture.  Again, a comparison between plastic and wood kits is instructive.  As I understand it, every one of the wood Victory kits - including even the Calder/Jotika one - represents the guns on the two lower decks, if it represents them at all, with "dummies" (stub reproductions of the outer ends of the barrels that plug into holes drilled in pieces of wood inside the hull).  The famous scratchbuilt model of the Victory by C. Nepean Longridge, which has been an inspiration to several generations of ship modelers, has all its lower- and middle-deck gunport lids closed; there are no guns in there.  The Heller kit, on the other hand, represents every individual gun with a complete, multi-part, full-length barrel and carriage.

Another example.  Dr. Longridge, in his book, The Anatomy of Nelson's Ships, acknowledges that the lanterns on the stern of the Victory defeated him.  He had somebody else make a set of masters for the lanterns on his 1/48-scale model, and had them cast in silver.  He then oxidized them, so they're solid, black, opaque castings.  The lanterns of the Heller kit are cast in clear plastic; the modeler paints the frames to match the original.  Which is more accurate - Longridge or Heller?  And how much philosophical difference is there between using a part produced by a manufacturer and one made by an individual other than yourself?  (Longridge also "farmed out" the carving of his model's figurehead and the decorative devices on the breeches of its guns.  I've never heard anybody denigrate him or his model for that.)

Another big virtue of the plastic molding process is that it can reproduce parts that simply are too complex to be made by the average - or far-above-average - modeler.  There's plenty of room for criticism of the old Heller sailing warship kits, and I've probably voiced most of those criticisms myself at least once.  But such kits as the Heller Soleil Royal, the Airfix Wasa, and the big Revell Constitution demonstrate that, if the masters for a plastic kit are made by skilled artisans, they can reach a level of historical accuracy and artistic subtlety that's beyond the realm of all but a few individual modelers.  The aforementioned Heller kit has serious accuracy problems (a Forum search on the words "Soleil Royal" will produce some excruciatingly lengthy arguments about them), but the carvings on its bow and stern rival those of all but the finest of the famous English "Board Room" models.  That's as high a compliment as I know how to pay.  The HECEPOB companies, with their "bronzed metal decorations," have never come close to that standard.  (Caveat:  Calder/Jotika and the Amati "Victory Models" range of kits, which, as I understand it, are designed by a gentleman who used to work for Calder/Jotika, may represent a breakthrough for the wood kit companies.  I believe their "carvings" are cast in resin.  The forthcoming Victory Models  H.M.S. Prince may represent a huge leap forward for the wood ship kit industry.  But it sure has been "forthcoming" for a long time - and heaven only knows how much it will cost when it finally gets here.)

A key to the enormous potential of the plastic kit is the pantograph machine.  (Maybe that term is obsolete in the computer age.  If so, the manufacturers have made it clear that modern technology is even better.)  Take a close look at some of the details on even the oldest of the Revell sailing ship kits.  The crew figures on the old Revell H.M.S. Bounty (vintage 1956) achieve a level of detail that can compete with the very finest parts in the most recent kits from Japan or China.  (Captain Bligh, who's less than 5/8" tall, has upper and lower lips, and buckles on his shoes.)  I'd challenge any individual modeler to beat that standard.  The plastic molding process has the potential to reproduce finer detail than any modeler can achieve by hand.  If you don't believe it, take a close look at an old LP phonograph record.

Aaronw makes an excellent point about prices.  Frankly I suspect many of the wood ship kits on the market are priced higher than they need to be; that's another argument.  I think one reason for the near-demise of the plastic sailing ship kit is that the delicate balance between the number of people interested in the hobby, the number of people who have (or realize that they have) the skills to build sailing ship models, the amount of time it takes to build such a model, and the costs of producing the kits just doesn't work out right.  I'm a big believer in plastic sailing ship kits.  These days I don't buy many kits of any sort, though; they're just too expensive.  A $50 purchase is not an "impulse buy" for me - and I suspect it isn't for many other people.  (That's an important consideration for the manufacturers and distributers.  Anybody who's ever worked at any level of the hobby industry knows that if the only kits - plastic, wood, ship, aircraft, or whatever - that ever got sold were the ones that got built, the industry would quickly go broke.)  As I mentioned earlier in this thread, one of the paradoxes of the hobby business is that as a modeler gets better, he/she tends to spend less money.  (Partial exceptions:  radio control modeling and model railroading.)  The "ideal," multi-media sailing kit that we've been discussing in this thread probably would cost well over $100.  In practical terms, that means a person like me (i.e., a part-time amateur building models in the evenings and on weekends) might - might - be able to build one or two such kits per year.  I don't know how many people like me it would take to keep a manufacturer of such kits in business, but if I were a potential manufacturer I'd probably conclude that there were better ways to invest my money. 

My own personal opinion, for what little it's worth, is that there's a place for scale ship model kits that make skillful, intelligent use of many materials and media - and the material out of which the original was made ought to be only one consideration in picking them.  (We don't insist that the only "legitimate" material for a model of an airplane or a car, or, for that matter, a modern warship, is metal.)  In my opinion wood, styrene, resin, cast metal, and photo-etched metal all have excellent potential applications in ship modeling. 

I'd like to see a wide range of multi-media ship model kits, in which every part was reproduced in a material intelligently chosen as being best suited to reproducing it.  Reality forces me to admit that the day of such kits probably won't arrive in my lifetime - if ever.  And if they ever do become available, I probably won't be able to afford them.  But it's not a bad idea to keep that ideal kit in the back of one's mind.   

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    December 2005
  • From: San Diego
Posted by jgonzales on Monday, May 26, 2008 3:37 AM

Hello Aaron

Here are a couple of links to a website/forum dedicated to helping builders of a particular plastic sailing ship model, the HMS Victory, the greatest of the wooden sailing warships, as presented by Heller in 1/100 scale.

http://pete-coleman.com/forum/index.php

http://www.pete-coleman.com/hmsv/vic_gal.htm

 

If you peruse the photographs, you will see that these modellers are very serious about what they do when it comes to building a great model of this great ship.

Here is a website by a company, Jotika, selling Caldercraft's wooden model kit of the same ship.

http://www.jotika-ltd.com/Pages/1024768/Nelson_12.htm

The Caldercraft kit is considered by many to be the best sailing ship model kit in the world. By the way, the Heller kit is often mentioned as the best plastic sailing ship model kit in the world.

The differences? Price - I bought the Heller kit for $75 a few years ago. Unfortunately, the model company is out of business, and future availability of the kit is uncertain. The kit often sells on e-bay for well over $200.

The Jotika/Caldercraft wooden kit sells for about $900 to $1000 dollars. It is a larger scale (1/72 vs 1/100).

Both model kits have the potential to generate masterpieces, but for me here's the key - If you paint the wooden model as instructed, and work towards making it appear as realistically as possible, it will not look that different from the painted plastic model worked on to make it appear as realistically as possible. I think that many people object to a plastic sailing ship model because they expect a sailing ship model to, as you put it, "look quite like wood" - they want to see the bare wood on the sides of the hull, exposed wood grain surfaces, and they want a "decorative masterpiece" to adorn their mantle. But there are also those who want an accurate representation of exactly what the ship looked like. They want to see the menacing black hull with yellow stripes, the checkerboard pattern of the wooden walls, the weathering of the deck, the rust stains. If you are that kind of modeller, then plastic sailing ship kits afford you the possibility of obtaining that look without having to invest in woodworking tools, and without having to spend that much more on a kit. Seriously, aside from the exposed wooden decks, comparing a painted wood kit to a painted plastic kit done well, there is very little difference in appearance.

 And as far as rigging is concerned, a very good (expensive) wooden kit will have better parts for that, but you can always buy aftermarket components to improve the plastic kit, and still end up spending much less - so the rigging is a wash for plastic vs. wooden kits. By the way, rigging is where most of the time will be spent on making the model.

Further, many of those expensive wooden kits are highly inaccurate, with different components out of scale and relative proportion. Carved details are often much better represented in plastic than in the castings that come with the wooden kits. Instructions in the wooden kits are often hideously inadequate. Dr. Tilley has coined the term "hecebop" - look it up in the forums and you'll have the answers to much of the question of what our objections are. This is not to say that there aren't any good wooden kits out there, but these are usually the really expensive ones.

Plastic sailing kits, with some effort, are as good as, or better than most of those wooden kits out there. Ultimately, how good a sailing ship model looks has more to do with how much time and effort you are willing to put into it, than whether it is made of plastic or wood, assuming that both kits were properly designed.

 Just my opinion

Jose Gonzales

Jose Gonzales San Diego, CA
  • Member since
    September 2015
  • From: The Redwood Empire
Posted by Aaronw on Monday, May 26, 2008 12:04 AM

Not at all to throw water on your festivities, but I'm just wondering, since you are talking about wooden ships wouldn't it make sense that quality kits would be made of wood? I mean plastic is nice for many things but it never really looks quite like wood. I've built a few plastic sailing ships when I was younger but if I were going to go to all the trouble of super detailing a sailing ship I'd really be looking at one of the wood kits. If I just wanted a fun build of a plastic sailing ship I really wouldn't be that concerned with it being super accurate as long as it looked nice on my shelf.

I'm wondering if you (sailing ship modelers) wouldn't be better served by an in between (a bit more than plastic but cheaper than the current wood kits) line of less expensive wood kits? 

Once you break the $50-100 range I think you lose most of the impulse buyers (and this seems to be were the nicer plastic kits fall) and the wood kits I've seen seem to be in the $100-300 range although those are what I see on the shelf, and I wouldn't be surprised to find you can order much more expensive kits not stocked in the average LHS.

Is your objection to wood based simply on cost or on the different techniques required with wood kits? 

 

I like ships but somehow have never really become much of a ship modeler, perhaps it is because I like the smaller subjects that are poorly represented in scale kit form.

  • Member since
    December 2003
  • From: 37deg 40.13' N 95deg 29.10'W
Posted by scottrc on Sunday, May 25, 2008 10:20 PM
Dragon and DML have shown that the manufactures have the casting technology to mold 3D parts as one part.  It just requires us to become a market segment big enough on a pareto chart to justify the investment to produce a sailing ship.

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Sunday, May 25, 2008 7:42 PM

Agreed, with two caveats:

One - 1/150 is awfully small for most modelers - especially for small ships.  (My little model of the Continental frigate Hancockhttp://www.hmsvictoryscalemodels.be/JohnTilleyHancock/index.html ] is on 1/128.  I'm not at all sure that, with eyeballs twenty years older and fingers twenty years more arthritic than they were when I built it, I could do it now.)  1/96, or 1/100, might be better - at least for some subjects.

Two - discussion of this point is really academic, because in 2008 there are, for practical purposes, no plastic sailing ship kit manufacturers.  I sincerely hope one of the big firms will take the risky plunge and try this phase of the hobby again some day.  (The thought of a sailing ship kit produced to the standards of, say, the new Dragon destroyer Buchanan is downright mouth-watering.)  And if one of them does, maybe it will solicit input from people like us.  It's probably too much to hope that such a thing will happen in the current economic climate.  But maybe some day....

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Sunday, May 25, 2008 6:35 PM

These are wonderful ideas! Remember, generally speaking, the steel warship manufacturers originally created kits to fit standard-sized boxes. Then, Airfix settled on the 1/600 scale, Hasegawa did 1/450, Heller with the 1/400, and the Japanese with 1/700 then 1/350. Standard scales existed only by manufacturers preferences. Eventually, the steel ship modeling industry settled on 1/700 and 1/350 with a few notable exceptions (Airfix, Heller) in spite of their respective past investments.  Sailing ship manufacturers should follow suit. 1/150 seems an excellent suggestion.

Bill Morrison

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Portsmouth, RI
Posted by searat12 on Sunday, May 25, 2008 11:17 AM

That's a pretty good idea!  Another way to reduce production costs is to settle on a standard scale, say, 1/150, or whatever.  By making a number of kits to the same scale, many parts will be common, and can simply be provided for with common sprues (a deadeye sprue, cannon sprues, etc.).  In keeping with your suggestion, these could also be made as AM pieces (a full sprue of blocks and deadeyes, or whatever, enough to do several kits in the same scale).  But this can only really work if the companies in question can decide on a standard scale, and this might require some cooperation between companies. 

I think this may be one of the reasons many of the model companies have been reluctant to invest in more sailing ship models (Airfix and Lindberg are particularly in trouble because of this, as their model scales are all over the shop, and were originally designed to fit certain sized boxes, rather than a common scale), as to make this change might be considered a 'loss of investment' in their older models.  PE on sailing ships might be more difficult, simply because there is almost nothing on a sailing ship that is flat!  I note there are a couple outfits out there that seem to specialize in producing AM wood decks for various WW2 ships (Kongo, submarines, etc), and these could be ideal for a plastic sailing ship model!

jpk
  • Member since
    August 2006
Posted by jpk on Sunday, May 25, 2008 10:45 AM

jtilley,

I agree with your assement of the situation for plastic kit manufacturuers with regards to sailing ship models. I can offer some solutions that may help them in their decisions as to whether or not to produce a new kit. It seems to me the problem lies with the detail parts and not the main structures of the ship. There are so many small parts once you get past the major components that yes, it is difficult to mold accurately all those small pieces in platic, not to mention expensive from a mold cutting perspective. I would suggest to them that they create a multi media kit using plastic for the major parts then tap aftermarket sources for wooden/resin/PE parts such as blocks, belaying pins, cannons, etc.. Be a little creative like the aircraft and steel warship guys have been. There are many AM companies that supply their needs and now some of the major kit manufacturers are making and supplying those parts themselves inclusive with their kits. Resin and PE parts are comparitively cheaper to make than styrene mold cutting. I have even suggested that since alot of aircraft modelers add so much AM to their kits leaving much of the molded parts unused that they, the manufacturers, make basic kits, kits that leave most of the molded detail parts out leaving the modeler to use AM parts to finish as desired. I believe such a kit could be less costly to produce and buy and the modeler could detail to the cost and finish level they want.      

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Groton, CT
Posted by warshipguy on Tuesday, May 20, 2008 10:23 AM

Thank you!  You did a wonderful job on WASA and I am using your photos as references for my own.  I hope that Hornby Hobbies listens to our combined input for new kits.  I appreciate your support!

 

Bill Morrison

JOIN OUR COMMUNITY!

Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.

SEARCH FORUMS
FREE NEWSLETTER
By signing up you may also receive reader surveys and occasional special offers. We do not sell, rent or trade our email lists. View our Privacy Policy.