Making the jump from Model Master to Vallejo...

Yup, agree with Chris... I have been to few game shop that sells Warhammer stuff and they usually sell Vallejo and Citadel paints too.  Right now I am so tempted to get rid of my MM acrylic paints and replace them with either Vallejo or Lifecolor only for figures painting... but not MM enamel paints yet as they work great on armors!!!

Jon, hope I'm not reading anything into this but if I upset you in any way I didn't mean to. Honest. Just trying to find out/learn about Vallejo paints. There's some things I like about Tamiya paints and a couple I don't. Just always trying to find something better. I'd be perfectly happy if I had nothing to use but acrylic lacquers. It's something I know how to use. That's why I'm gonna try Mr Color.

Doogs ATX, I'd definitely be curious to see how those colors match up. I have the Ultimate Paint conversion chart that Chris mentioned and the color charts for ModelAir and ModelColor and some of the colors don't really seem to match up that well. But maybe it's just the difference in scanning/reproducing/monitors. Only thing is, I have to order paints to find out and if they don't match up, well, it's order again.

I don't have any problem thinning Vallejo with water. A gallon of distilled water is pretty cheap. There's a Micheals just up the street that sells Golden and Liquitex products so adding medium isn't a problem. It is curious about that fellow in the thread you provided a link to thinning with alcohol though. Wonder how he got that to work.

Tony

I've always had a problem spraying MM acrylics, they gum up my Iwata, I've never figured it out.

So I still use the enamels...............I'll have to give Vallejo and Tamiya a try.

Wingman_kz

Doogs ATX, I'd definitely be curious to see how those colors match up. I have the Ultimate Paint conversion chart that Chris mentioned and the color charts for ModelAir and ModelColor and some of the colors don't really seem to match up that well. But maybe it's just the difference in scanning/reproducing/monitors. Only thing is, I have to order paints to find out and if they don't match up, well, it's order again.

Sprayed some Vallejo for the first time last night. Oily Steel for the SBD's engine (a bit sparkly for my tastes, but that should tone back with washes). It went on REALLY thin.

Next I moved on to my Revell Fail Dauntless to do some test painting. FS35189. Vallejo versus Lifecolor. The Vallejo went on really thin again, so I added more directly to the paint cup and stirred w/ a toothpick. This helped. Noticeably better spray characteristics, though still very watery. I also kept feeling that I had to open up the throttle quite a bit to get consistent flow. That has me a bit concerned about nailing really thin lines. I thinned using a mix of 90% distilled water, 10% Future, and a drop of Vallejo retarder (which just sank like a rock to the bottom of my thinner bottle...). Would using an airbrush medium help curtail the watery-ness? I have no experience with the stuff - and neither Michaels or Hobby Lobby in my area carries it (though they have EVERY OTHER MEDIUM...)

After Vallejo, it was on to Lifecolor. I went back to their thinner, and this time tried a ratio of about 60:40 paint/thinner. Sprayed much less like dirty water, but it also had tip dry issues. May need to add some retarder to the thinner next time. 

Once I got them both spraying right, they handled pretty similarly. There seems to be a fine line between tip dry issues and spraying a runny, watery mess. Need to work more on ratios, PSI, and whatnot, but I can't say yet that I prefer one brand over the other.

Oh...and then there's this. Both of these colors are labelled as FS35189. The Vallejo is the darker of the two. Clearly they can't both be right!

The official paint chip seems somewhere in between...

Oily steel is a bit Twilight Vampire sparkly, isn't it?  When I use it for fig painting, I always hit it with smoke or a balck wash to tone it down.  As for the wateriness, weeelllll....you are thinning mainly with water!   I either use just future, and thin about 60-40 Future to paint, OR I pre mix airbrush medium and a little water (70-30-ish), then thin with that mix to the desired.  Using that much water would certainly cause your paint to spray poorly in my opinion. 

Michaels drives me nuts sometimes!  My local stores (two of them) have airbrush medium falling off the shelves, but I had to go online to get acrylic flow release.  Oh, and skip the retarder.  When thinning with Future, or the water mix, you don't really need it.  I mainly use it when brush painting so the paint stays wet longer, helping me blend colors and areas of color.  I also use it when shooting Tamiya as the alcohol thinner can dry too quickly, especially if it is hot.

As to the color differences, there are many reasons for it, but I could rant for a long time about companies inconsistancies in reproducing FS colors.  Find what is close enough for you, and run with it.  No two vehicles ever look the same in service anyway!

Chris

Chris - I swear you're a lifesaver, gentleman and scholar when it comes to this stuff!

Yes, oily steel is definitely a bit sparkly, but it's a little known fact that the Wright Cyclone ran on glitter. I'm actually planning exactly what you suggest, hitting it with smoke and then a black (well, more of grimy, almost-black grey/brown) wash to grunge it up. 

Good to know about the wateriness. I wandered off to my LHS during lunch today for more paint-buying fun and they actually had a bottle of Liquitex airbrush medium. Think I may try both your suggested mixes and see which I like best. 

Regarding the colors...I actually discovered something very random that makes me question whether or not some of Vallejo's colors are labeled with the wrong FS numbers.

Sprue Brothers, Great Model, and Vallejo's own PDFs all identify non-specular blue grey FS35819 with Model Color #904, Dark Blue Grey. Clearly, from the pic I posted above, it's not.

At my LHS, they have a Vallejo equivalency chart zip-tied to the rack, and on a whim I decided to look it over. Sure enough, FS35819 matches up to Model Color #904, in rack position 157. BUT it lists the paint name as Gris Azul Claro (guess they only printed the spanish chart?), when Dark Blue Grey is Gris Azul Oscuro. I've never seen this anywhere else, as all the other materials just stick to the stock numbers.

Gris Azul Claro - or Bluegrey Pale, as the call it, is #905, with an FS of 35237. Looking at the chips online, it appears VERY close to 35819. Maybe a touch more on the grey side. 

Can't help but wandering if there was some labeling error...but I picked up Bluegrey Pale as well as the confusingly named Pale Greyblue, with some Sky Blue if I need to blue either of these up a bit. More paint testing tonight!

Tony

No worries, I did say i'm only learning, & what others have said about the probable causes of my grot finish with Tamiya strikes me as probably right

Still have some MM and Tammy, even some antique Humbrol in stock to practice with, eventually....

I'm also reading with interest about the colo(u)r matching, my biggest issue with Vallejo has been matching their numbers with any kit paint refs... apart from Hobbyboss Interiors, as there are NO refs given...

Things just get interestinger and interestinger.

Plugged Dark Blue Grey in to the Paint4Models.com interactive chart and it didn't spit out the coveted FS35189 once.

But it did offer up FS36099 a couple of times (along with, randomly, Gunship Grey). And yeah, 36099 looks very close to the color on the Fail Dauntless' wingtip.

Anonymous

Chris I appreciate you taking the time to answer. And I asked a book's worth of questions. I hope AlterEcho doesn't mind and that it can help him too.

I'll look around and see what I can find. There may be a shop in town with gaming supplies like that. This isn't a large city. If not I'll order a couple bottles from somewhere and try them out. I like the color selection, if they work out a decent size order isn't out of the question.

Tony

No problem here, Tony. Great questions and I am glad so many are chipping in on advice and knowledge.

Anonymous

Chris I appreciate you taking the time to answer. And I asked a book's worth of questions. I hope AlterEcho doesn't mind and that it can help him too.

I'll look around and see what I can find. There may be a shop in town with gaming supplies like that. This isn't a large city. If not I'll order a couple bottles from somewhere and try them out. I like the color selection, if they work out a decent size order isn't out of the question.

Tony

Almost forgot... www.michtoy.com is who I have been ordering from. They have the entire line of Vallejo, Gunze Sangyo (Mr. Color, Mr. Hobby, etc...) and Andrea (which I am going to give a shot for figure painting). Excellent customer service (had an order where one of the paint containers opened in shipment. They jumped right on it and threw in some freebies, no questions asked). I wished my LHS would carry these paints, because I try to support local shops, but they do not have enough customer support. Their main customers are for model railroads. If you check out michtoy.com you get a discount, for becoming member, which is free. I am not associated with them in any way...but I like to pass along good places to shop.

DoogsATX

 

Wingman_kz:

 

The Vallejo color charts I have list 200 Model Color paints and 98 Model Air. That's quite a selection. They don't have FS, RAL,RLM, etc numbers but I can crossreference them. Are you guys satisfied with their color match? I guess it's like anything else, add a little of this and a little of that to get just what you want.  One more, in the US what's the best place to order them from?

 

 

Sprue Brothers lists them with FS numbers. For example: http://store.spruebrothers.com/vallejo-model-color---dark-blue-grey-fs35189-17ml-70904-p15238.aspx

I'm planning to pick up a bottle of Vallejo's dark blue grey sometime this week (my LHS stocks Vallejo) to do a spray comparison against Lifecolor's non-specular blue grey (both FS35189) to see which one will get the honors of coating my Dauntless.

I'll be sure to post the results up here when I'm through.

Also read on another forum that Vallejo Model Color is so high-pigment that people reduce it as much as 1-2 drops of paint to 20 drops of thinner...if true it seems like one bottle could go a really long way.

 

I saw in MMIR that Vallejo is releasing a new RLM line for Model Air. I think I am going to wait on Mr. Color and try this new line. Not sure if it is out now, but worth a try.

I was in the same boat, only used MM enamels for my armor and RLM. In fact I learned to use my airbrush on MM enamels. I am excited about trying something new, though. I am hoping to use nothing but acrylics on my paper panzer. From primer to washes is my goal. It might not work out but at least it will be something new to try. But even with an organic filter and a spray booth the smell is just getting to me.

I must admit the enamels still call to me  :)

DoogsATX

Things just get interestinger and interestinger.

Plugged Dark Blue Grey in to the Paint4Models.com interactive chart and it didn't spit out the coveted FS35189 once.

But it did offer up FS36099 a couple of times (along with, randomly, Gunship Grey). And yeah, 36099 looks very close to the color on the Fail Dauntless' wingtip.

I hate to throw more into the mix. I have a friend who has been painting models for years and is a stickler on originality. He swears by White Ensign Models paint line. His specialty is American aircraft from WWII and his paint looks dead on. The reason I have never tried them is that they are enamels...which is straying from my goal. But if you are tired of looking you might want to give them a shot.

As far as mixing you might want to try spraying straight from the bottle (Model Air). If that doesn't work try adding Vallejo's varnish to the mix.

He's shooting Model Color, and it would take 100psi to shoot that straight from the bottle!

I don't like using vallejo's varnighes as an airbrushing addative.  First, you need too much.  I thin in excess of 50%.  So if a decent size 1/48 plane, or 1/35 armor kit takes 1 bottle of paint (or close to it), you'll use 2 bottles of gloss, satin, or matte varnish.  Secondly, their varnishes are still pretty thick.  You can shoot the varnish without thinning, but add it to paint, it doesn't thin nearly enough. 

Nope, I'll reach for Future first, and/or my water and airbrush medium combo.  Makes model color spray just fine.

These formulas also work just fine for Citadel's paints (Games Workshop).  If that stuff is what your local games and hobby shop carries, run with it.  Just strain that stuff!  It tends towards some godawful paint boogers!  It does brush really well, and their new washes are awesome for figure painting.

Chris

Yeah Killjoy, I must have been sleep typing.

I forgot he is using Model Color and you are right, water and ratio is the way to go. I just got my delivery, yesterday, and have been going over the bottles and washes. The rest of the delivery should be here before week's end. I can already tell, this is going to be quite a journey.

More paint experimentation fun goodness time last night!

First, the Greyblue Pale turned out WAY too grey for my liking, and the Pale Greyblue was just way too light.

So I got to mixing and found a ratio that comes pretty close to the few color photos I've seen of early war Dauntlesses. I think I may mess with the ratios just a bit when I go to paint the actual Dauntless, but not by more than a drop here or there.

I also sprayed using Killjoy's 70:30 airbrush medium:distilled water solution and, WOW, what a difference. It definitely adds a level of creaminess to the spray. A lot less like water and more like Tamiya or even a heavily thinned MM enamel.

The finish is also fantastic. Nice and smooth. Considering how rough a few of the coats underneath are, this blew me away.

DoogsATX

I also sprayed using Killjoy's 70:30 airbrush medium:distilled water solution and, WOW, what a difference. It definitely adds a level of creaminess to the spray. A lot less like water and more like Tamiya or even a heavily thinned MM enamel.

The finish is also fantastic. Nice and smooth. Considering how rough a few of the coats underneath are, this blew me away.

That's more consistent with my experiences spraying Vallejo.  Glad it helped!  Once you get the hang of this stuff, it's really wonderful paint, and the range of colors can't be beat. 

Chris

I'm new to Vallejo myself and so far love it.

I do have a question. I read on here about retarder and air brush medium. The truth is I've never use either one. From reading the thread I understand what each is for so i want to try some.There are both a Hobby Lobby and a Micheals here in town. If I go to them what do I ask for. I just want to be sure I'm buying the right thing.

Retarder is an addative that slows the drying time of paint.  I only use retarder for brush painting.  If you're airbrushing Vallejo, you're using some water to thin.  Water dries slowly enough for me!

Air brush medium is a milky acrylic binder.  Basically is it the stuff paint would be without the pigment.  It thins paint to the consistancy you need for airbrushing without much reduction in color coverage, and without making the paint too runny. 

I use Golden's airbrush medium, available at Michaels (we don't have hobby lobby out here), but the Liquitex airbrush medium is ok too.  I pre-mix 70% airbrush medium and 30% water in a bottle.  Then I use this to thin my Vallejo Model Color paints to about the consistancy of 2% milk.  PSI will really depend on your airbrush, but I use a Badger 100LG gravity feed with a medium needle and tip.  I am shooting at 10-12 psi with the above mixture about 4-6 inches from my subject, sometimes closer.

The paint lays down nice and smooth, with a wet, but not runny spray. 

Hope this helps!

Chris

Yeh, adding medium is reducing and adding thinner is, thinning.

DoogsATX, looks like you're getting it figured out. Paint looks good. I didn't go back to the previous page, do you have any dark blue gray, listed as 904?

AlterEcho, thanks for mentioning that site. I had been there several years ago looking for Mr Color thinner. They do have a nice selection. May have to give them a try. I know what you mean about the enamels, shot some this evening. No tip dry. No clogging...

Jon, glad we're ok.

Tony

Wingman_kz

DoogsATX, looks like you're getting it figured out. Paint looks good. I didn't go back to the previous page, do you have any dark blue gray, listed as 904?

I'm definitely getting it figured out! 

I tried using Future last night for spraying the Dauntless' crankcase. Worked pretty well. I think the mix may have been a bit too thick - I was eyeballing and mixing straight in the airbrush cup - but coverage and final finish were fantastic. I was also surprised that it dried to more of a semi-matte finish. I'd expected Future would gloss it up.

Also had to spray a bit more Lifecolor in what seems like my never-ending build of this thing's cockpit. It sprayed better with the medium/water solution, but it was still thin and watery. 

Of the two brands, I'm definitely preferring Vallejo.

As for 904, that's what I started with. I've also been using it as the base for mixing up a lighter color. Once the real Dauntless gets closer to the painting stage, I may play with my ratios again, or try to see if I can get close using a simpler mix, such as just adding white to the dark blue grey.

Ain't it fun? I thought you had said you had 904 but didn't remember offhand if that was the one that may have been mislabeled and was something else. Should have gone back a page or two but didn't have much time. Soon as I can scrape up a little extra cash I will get a few bottles to try. This may be just what I've been looking for.

Tony

I am going tomorrow to pick up either/both Golden's and Liquidtex mediums. I also thinking of ordering the mediums from Vallejo. to try also.

Killjoy, have you tried Vallejo's medium in your airbrush mix?

AlterEcho

Killjoy, have you tried Vallejo's medium in your airbrush mix?

Which medium?  Vallejo makes an acrylic thinner, as well as gloss, matte, and satin medium, but not a specific airbrush medium like Goldens (that I am aware of).  Even if they do, it'd be more expensive than the Goldens, which works fine for me.

Chris

Killjoy

 

AlterEcho:  Even if they do, it'd be more expensive than the Goldens

Chris

Looking at the bottles, I see what you mean. You get quite a bit more with Golden's than Vallejo. I am trying to stick with one manufacturer to keep it simple. Makes it easier to figure out where I am messing up...which I am sure will be plenty and often 

No, I am sure you'll do fine.  Keep a little cheapie notebook next to your spray area.  As you mix paint and thinner ratios, and get what works for you dialed-in, write it down!  I can't tell you how many times I have picked up my airbrush after a month or so away, and can't remember my thinning ratios and/or psi for certain paints, and forget about mixing colors!  My brain doesn't work that way.  My well stained notebook is a lifesaver!

Good luck!

Chris

Well, I did find some Vallejo at a local game shop but all they had were a few of the kits with 6 to 18 or 20 bottles and none were what I was looking for. Hoped they would at least have a *kit* with primary colors but no. Found another shop in the phone book about 40 miles away and they have individual bottles of Model Color but not the whole line. The fellow said they had a *good selection*, just not the complete line but they could get whatever I wanted. May ride up this weekend, I don't know. Forgot to ask their price but the kits here in town averaged $3.30 a bottle. With the price of gas it would probably be cheaper to order online.

Tony

Killjoy

Keep a little cheapie notebook next to your spray area.  As you mix paint and thinner ratios, and get what works for you dialed-in, write it down!  I can't tell you how many times I have picked up my airbrush after a month or so away, and can't remember my thinning ratios and/or psi for certain paints, and forget about mixing colors!  My brain doesn't work that way.  My well stained notebook is a lifesaver!

THIS. 

Spent some more time fiddling with paint mixes for the Dauntless last night, and I think I've found that 4:3 or 5:4 paint:thinning solution works best through my Iwata. That's using the 70:30 airbrush medium/distilled water mix.

I also found straight up water coming up a bit wanting when it came to really flushing out the airbrush. I was shooting a lot of small quantities of paint, and since I was being lazy and trying to mix in the brush the little cavity beneath the needle tended to accumulate paint. The water wouldn't touch it, but a good flush or two of Windex cleared it right up.

I'm also finding that Vallejo is holding up just as well as Tamiya for tight, controlled spray:

Windex.  Find the stuff that still has ammonia in the formula.  It attacks acrylic paint like no other.  I flush with windex, shoot until no color comes out, then flush with water.  Don't leave windex in your brush overnight though, it will attack the chrome plating. 

Chris

I use the Vallejo medium, as well as water and Medea cleaners, depending on what I'm trying to do, as well as a little Retarder, which I think helps with tip-dry, as I'm soo sloooow!