Making the jump from Model Master to Vallejo...

@Doogs

I checked out your Flickr photos. Beautiful camera work. I am also starting to read your thread on the Dauntless, nice work.

Thanks, AlterEcho! 

I actually preshaded the Dauntless last night. Not sure how well Vallejo paints are suited to preshading, at least through my Iwata HP-C Plus. Lots of tip dry issues. 

Sprayed my first big job with Vallejo last night.

Curiously, the airbrush medium/distilled water solution failed miserably. Even heavily thinned, it produced a lot of spit, inconsistent spray, and was just all around a nightmare to deal with.

After some time, I said screw it, dumped the paint, and mixed up a new batch thinned with Future.

The result is easily the smoothest, cleanest coat of paint I've ever laid down.

In addition...I'm fast coming to the conclusion that any FS #'s associated with Vallejo paints don't really mean anything. The Deck Tan that's supposed to be a match for the light grey? Yeah, not at all. I ended up using Medium Sea Grey cut with Off White to get the warmish tones I was going for.

This is good to know. Luckily, I have a ton of Future (bought it fearing they would change the formula) on hand.

Quick question...would weathering change the base colors towards the correct FS color? Though, it sounds like they are not in the same ball park (I have never worked with FS, only RLM).

AlterEcho

Quick question...would weathering change the base colors towards the correct FS color? Though, it sounds like they are not in the same ball park (I have never worked with FS, only RLM).

Hmm. Maybe in some cases, say if the colors were off by an amount of brightness, but at least with the two primary Dauntless colors, I've been noticing they're off in the basic color tones.

The Deck Tan is far too warm to work as the called for light grey, and has sufficient red tones to push it into tan/brown (albeit just barely). Medium Sea Grey was pretty much perfect, but too dark. A little white brought it back to where I was happy with it.

Conversely, the Dark Blue Grey has too much green, so it needs something with red/purple tones to counteract. I was originally thinking of mixing it with a warm grey, but I've since acquired a bottle of Intermediate Blue, which has a distinct purplish cast to it. I'm kind of hoping mixing those two together will give me just the look I want. And when I find that look, I'll write the ratio down and mix up a big ol' batch that should last me the rest of this kit.

Overall, I think mixing is probably going to be the way to go for Vallejo paints, unless it's something really basic like black or neutral grey (their interior green looks pretty spot on, too). I've been using bottle caps to test mixes in. Once I have the ratio down, I'll whip up larger batches.

I was also talking with a designer friend about this quandary, and he made an excellent suggestion of using photo editing software to test the effect of different tones...adding red or blue or whatnot casts...

For example, here are some mixing tests as taken straight from the camera:

And here they are with red/purple cranked up a bit:

Wow...what a great solution, without having to waste a lot of paint going down the wrong road. Using software hadn,t crossed my mind. Well done!

I must admit that I have no idea on how the various allied planes were painted. It seems like it would be simple for the paint manufacturers to match (or be close) the military colors. But I guess there is more to it than mixing some paint up and matching paint chips. The Luftwaffe colors seem to be matched pretty good, at least from Model Master. When the rest of my paint arrives I guess I will see how Vallejo does with RLM.

I did run across something like this when getting ready to paint a C119C "Flying Boxcar". The interior called for Chromate (Model Master). The bottles from my LHS ranged from a weird yellow to a putrid green. All Model Master enamel and acryl. Finally I bought the Zinc Chromate (Testors) but haven't used it yet. It just doesn't look right, compared to the photos. And weathering would not bring it even close to the right color.

AlterEcho

I must admit that I have no idea on how the various allied planes were painted. It seems like it would be simple for the paint manufacturers to match (or be close) the military colors. But I guess there is more to it than mixing some paint up and matching paint chips. The Luftwaffe colors seem to be matched pretty good, at least from Model Master. When the rest of my paint arrives I guess I will see how Vallejo does with RLM.

I did run across something like this when getting ready to paint a C119C "Flying Boxcar". The interior called for Chromate (Model Master). The bottles from my LHS ranged from a weird yellow to a putrid green. All Model Master enamel and acryl. Finally I bought the Zinc Chromate (Testors) but haven't used it yet. It just doesn't look right, compared to the photos. And weathering would not bring it even close to the right color.

See...I'm the other way around. I'm pretty conversant with US aircraft colors and schemes, but much less so about the Luftwaffe (or RAF, Soviet VVS or Japanese...though I'm ramping up on the Soviets now). And one thing that stands out, particularly early in the war, is how totally varied the paints could be. Green and yellow chromate varied in shades. Olive drab, the Navy's blue grey, and I'm sure a dozen other colors could be all over the map depending on locally available paint sources and mixes, paint quality, local conditions, etc. And, at least in the case of blue grey, they predated the Federal Standard system, so the current "official" version is definitely in the ballpark, but by no means the "only" non-specular blue grey.

Hmmm, I'm beginning to think that old saying is true...

Better the devil you know.

Mixing is one thing, I already do that with the paints I use now. It's going to have to be pretty good stuff for me to learn a new system and, to have to do it through mail order. Or make an 80 mile round trip to see if maybe they have what I need. Then there's the tip dry. And that's what drives me nuts about using acrylics. MM Acryll, I'm still figuring out in that respect. With Tamiya that isn't really a problem.

For now I think I'll stick with what I have/am used to and when I'm ready to experiment, maybe go with Mr Color. I do enjoy reading about your experiences though.

Tony

I shot some Mr. Color the other day. It is the bomb! Reminds me of Tamiya but with a better paint selection. This would make a great substitute for MM enamels. Their RLM looks dead on and a lot of manufacturers call out their paint codes. I cut their paint with Mr. Leveler and was very pleased with my results. Did not take me long to ramp up on how to shoot it, which was neat. But, as was pointed out to me, it is lacquer based and so are it's thinners. If nothing else I could shoot Mr. Color and use Vallejo for weathering and chips. But I am trying to get away from fumes so hopefully the Vallejo will work out.

I have nothing but respect for the Mr. Color line...but I LOVE being able to paint without worrying about a respirator, and being able to flush the airbrush by spraying Windex into the discarded paper towels in the trash can, instead of having to use one of those cleaning stations.

Something maybe worth considering, especially if Gunze nails the RLM colors, is to pick up a few bottles of the colors you use over and over and over again, and use them as a matching reference. 

As for tip dry, at least now that I've ditched the AB medium in favor of Future, I've found that a q-tip dipped in Windex is sufficient for clearing things out. That and not loading too much paint into the cup at any one time. I've found myself keeping a dropper on hand and just adding more from the mixing jar as needed.

Also sprayed the upper surfaces last night. The Dark Blue Grey and Intermediate Blue mixed perfectly. Pretty much nailed the color I was going for. And they went on clean enough that I was able to freehand the demarkation with the light grey underside. The only masking involved holding an index card under the stabs to avoid overspraying the light grey where it jumps up toward the tail.

I hear you. The last couple of paint schemes I've done were three color camo done freehand with acrylics. I sat down at a little table in the basement, set the aircraft on a cheap easel from WallyWorld, put on a dust mask and started spraying. Working up close with low pressure there wasn't much overspray and every so often I'd turn on the exhaust fan on the paint booth to clear the room. It was cool, I had fun.

Funds are limited right now so I'm gonna concentrate on redoing my paint booth and making it larger. For now I can live with the paints I have. Maybe I'll pick up a couple bottles of Vallejo to experiment with in the near future but honestly, I really like working with lacquers. Just add thinner and spray...

And spray...

And spray...

Tony

AlterEcho

I shot some Mr. Color the other day. It is the bomb! Reminds me of Tamiya but with a better paint selection. This would make a great substitute for MM enamels. Their RLM looks dead on and a lot of manufacturers call out their paint codes. I cut their paint with Mr. Leveler and was very pleased with my results. Did not take me long to ramp up on how to shoot it, which was neat. But, as was pointed out to me, it is lacquer based and so are it's thinners. If nothing else I could shoot Mr. Color and use Vallejo for weathering and chips. But I am trying to get away from fumes so hopefully the Vallejo will work out.

It is unfortunate that GSI Creos cut down their acrylic line, as all the RLM/FS 595B/BS.381 colours in the Mr Color range  were previously also available in aqueous acrylics, but are now no longer.

Phil_H

 

 

 

It is unfortunate that GSI Creos cut down their acrylic line, as all the RLM/FS 595B/BS.381 colours in the Mr Color range  were previously also available in aqueous acrylics, but are now no longer.

I did not know that. That is a shame, because their lacquer line is awsome. I wonder what drove them to that decision...

You will not be let down. The Vallejo products are simple to use. I would suggest playing with them on a Pallet model first to get a feel for the drying time etc. One tip I would offer is to be aware of the fact that you will need to cleen your airbrush frequently. The quick drying time is a plus on the model but not so good in the tip of your brush. Vallejo has recently released a tutorial DVD that is not expensive and will give you tons of information that would otherwise take months if not longer to figure out on your own. The DVD was produced with the guidance of MIG and really is a wealth of information.

I too am very interested in finding a good water based acrylic and it's tempting to get another couple of sets of primes (plus three or four whites) of vallejo and try it out. I've got Life Color, Badger and a bunch of Aeromaster (many RLM colors).

Gotta stick up for Tamiya though. Whoever decided that Tamiya performed best with lacquer thinner (they have their own: it seems the same as Mr. Color's) was quite right. As far as colors go, Tamiya has added a number recently and are starting to give them military names. Recently I've bought the following: IJN Sasebo Arsenal gray; IJN Kure Arsenal gray, NATO black; RLM Gray; German Gray. And I wonder if Tamiya has not done a very good job of simply labeling. Their Desert Yellow sure looks Afrika Korps to me. Intermediate Gray is very close to Haze Gray - there are many other examples. And now, ship fans note, they have spray lacquers of Navy Blue and Haze Gray. I don't like lacquers either but if used on something like a hull, it might be worth it - sure can't beat the finish. 

Jury is still out on Mr. Color for me. So far I like the stuff and don't doubt it's a good product. It definitely lays down a very tough coat - don't expect it to come off with Windex. Of course that's good if you don't want it to come off. (There's an interesting site called hobbywave.com which specializes in fantasy stuff. Their paint guru has a background in the arts and absolutely swears by the stuff.) But as noted by others, Mr. Color is an acrylic in name only. The real question is it better than Tamiya. I don't doubt it's tougher. But when used with lacquer thinner Tamiya lays down a very good coat at low pressure with very thin paint. (It won't with acrylic thinner for me - no doubt a better brush jockey could make do.) So it's very good that way for doing subtle stuff like MIG style modulation painting or LW camo. On the other hand, for many purposes you can still get good results out of Tamiya mixed with acrylic thinner or whatever witches' brew you favor. And it cleans far easier than Mr Color.

This is all inspiring of course. I presently have way too many kits - maybe 50. And because they are packed in such big boxes I could fill a closet. Frankly "she who must be obeyed" is not pleased. Nothing to do with money (as noted in my tag, model boats are much cheaper than real ones) but it's becoming "untidy." Untidy is very bad. Very bad indeed. However, paints come in such teenie bottles, that I could spend a thousand dollars on Vallejo bottles and it would come in a box smaller than the one holding a Dragon Tiger I. (Of course you could use a different approach. One of the airbrush gurus consulted by FineScale for their recent Volume 2 of Painting and Finishing is a tightwad. He employs automotive primer and uses exterior acrylics to paint kits. For detail he uses art store acrylics. It sounds nuts, but the guy has one very neat tank on display and I'd like to think that FSM contributors are not clinically mad. Once I had some cheapo art store acrylics and an Airfix 72 Spitfire: put some Gesso on the thing and painted it up. The texture was not ideal, but it actually looks okay from ten feet. And the paint is designed for elementary school kids: you could eat the stuff without harm. Dump half a bottle on your head and wash it out in the shower. Heaven knows what you could do with higher quality artist acrylics laid on top of something like Mr. Surfacer.)  Anyway, I fear buying more kits. But buying paints would be a little like methadone - not the real thing but a high. You'd have to get on a proper modeling web site to buy it. And you'd be helping the modeling industry through our dark hour. And if just one little kit was sitting there for dirt cheap (I scored a 48 Scale Hasegawa BF109 E "Galland" for $15 last week) you'd lose money not buying it.

Eric

Eric

Well said Eric. You had me laughing...though I call my better half, "The Elder".

I haven't gotten to the point of having a collection of boxed models, yet. So far, only three or four are sitting on shelves. I can see how easily that collection could grow unless I stayed my wallet in my left pocket (pulled the trigger on some Model Expo sales, only to find out they were out of stock. I mean a Eduard 1/48 FW for only $16.00...they were asking for it LOL).

I have had great luck with Tamiya, also. But, like you said trying to stay away from laquer as well. So Vallejo it is, for now. My shipment has arrived and I think I have just about everything covered. I am even going to try painting my figures with Vallejo, just to see what happens. So, I have the 'paper panzer' covered as well as the uniforms and faces of the Tamiya figures that will go with it.

And yes Eric, it is a high opening the boxes for the paints. To bad it doesn't last as long:)

:

Dude...having finished my first kit using primarily Vallejo...once you get the hang of it, you'll love it. I'll probably still turn to Tamiya for some stuff (I like their clear colors better...so nav lights and such), but for the bulk of my painting going forward...Vallejo all the way. It also brush paints better than any paint I've ever used...

DoogsATX

Dude...having finished my first kit using primarily Vallejo...once you get the hang of it, you'll love it. I'll probably still turn to Tamiya for some stuff (I like their clear colors better...so nav lights and such), but for the bulk of my painting going forward...Vallejo all the way. It also brush paints better than any paint I've ever used...

I picked up some of the Vallejo clear's. Did you get a chance to try them, and if so, did you like the Tamiya better? I have used the Tamiya clear's and loved them. Thought I would get the Vallejo and Alclad lens colors to try them.

Oh my, that sure looks like fun. Having all those new bottles of paint to play with. Gives me chills just thinking about it.

Enjoy!

Tony